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Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix

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Jayne:
There are multiple articles on this, but I chose this one because it seems to quote the most actual words and to add the least editorializing: https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2021/03/24/pope-francis-jesus-entrusted-mary-to-us-as-a-mother-not-as-co-redeemer/


--- Quote ---Speaking at his general audience on March 24, the pope said that while Christians had always given Mary beautiful titles, it was important to remember that Christ is the only redeemer.

He was addressing a theological debate about whether the Church should issue a dogmatic definition declaring Mary “Co-Redemptrix,” in honor of her role in humanity’s salvation.

“Jesus extended Mary’s maternity to the entire Church when He entrusted her to his beloved disciple shortly before dying on the cross,” the pope noted.

“From that moment on, we have all been gathered under her mantle, as depicted in certain medieval frescoes or paintings. Even the first Latin antiphon — sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix: the Madonna who ‘covers,’ like a Mother, to whom Jesus entrusted us, all of us; but as a Mother, not as a goddess, not as co-redeemer: as Mother.”

He continued: “It is true that Christian piety has always given her beautiful titles, as a child gives his or her mamma: how many beautiful things children say about their mamma whom they love so much! How many beautiful things.”

“But we need to be careful: the things the Church, the saints, say about her, beautiful things, about Mary, subtract nothing from Christ’s sole Redemption. He is the only Redeemer. They are expressions of love like a child for his or her mamma — some are exaggerated. But love, as we know, always makes us exaggerate things, but out of love.”

The pope gave his address, dedicated to prayer in communion with Mary, in the library of the Apostolic Palace due to coronavirus restrictions. The address was part of his cycle of catechesis on prayer, which he launched in May and resumed in October following nine addresses on healing the world after the pandemic.

Noting that he was speaking on the Vigil of the Solemnity of the Annunciation, which falls on March 25, he said: “Christ is the Mediator, Christ is the bridge that we cross to turn to the Father. He is the only Redeemer: there are no co-redeemers with Christ. He is the only one. He is the Mediator par excellence.”

Christ’s “one mediation,” he said, sheds light on the role of Mary.

“She occupies a privileged place in the lives of Christians, and therefore, in their prayer as well, because she is the Mother of Jesus,” he said.
--- End quote ---

Francis is clearly aware of the long history of the title "Co-Redemptrix"  (including its use by previous popes) and dismisses this as "exaggerations".

This is different from the position which acknowledges this title as expressing a truth but one that is too open to misunderstanding to be prudent to proclaim as dogma (a view expressed by Cardinal Ratzinger before becoming pope.)  Francis, unless this article has somehow distorted his meaning,  is outright denying that it is true.

Since this was not declared a dogma, I don't think it qualifies as heresy, but it is a deeply disturbing display of distancing himself from the traditional teaching of the Church.  I realize that this is not new for him, and perhaps not the most theologically significant incident, but I'm finding it very upsetting.

Vetus Ordo:

--- Quote from: Jayne on April 07, 2021, 01:40:33 PM ---Since this was not declared a dogma, I don't think it qualifies as heresy, but it is a deeply disturbing display of distancing himself from the traditional teaching of the Church.  I realize that this is not new for him, and perhaps not the most theologically significant incident, but I'm finding it very upsetting.
--- End quote ---

This is a grain of sand compared to the issue of the death penalty. That was a complete reversal of a perennial teaching of Scripture approved by the Pope in his official capacity as supreme pastor and teacher of all Christians, not just as a private teacher.

Granted, he didn't start it. The CCC under Wojtyla and Ratzinger had already muddied the waters but Bergoglio finished it off.

Gardener:

--- Quote from: Vetus Ordo on April 07, 2021, 01:52:42 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jayne on April 07, 2021, 01:40:33 PM ---Since this was not declared a dogma, I don't think it qualifies as heresy, but it is a deeply disturbing display of distancing himself from the traditional teaching of the Church.  I realize that this is not new for him, and perhaps not the most theologically significant incident, but I'm finding it very upsetting.
--- End quote ---

This is a grain of sand compared to the issue of the death penalty. That was a complete reversal of a perennial teaching of Scripture approved by the Pope in his official capacity as supreme pastor and teacher of all Christians, not just as a private teacher.

Granted, he didn't start it. The CCC under Wojtyla and Ratzinger had already muddied the waters but Bergoglio finished it off.

--- End quote ---

Which leaves us with two options: the Church is false and always has been, or, Bergoglio is simply not the Pope.

Vetus Ordo:

--- Quote from: Gardener on April 07, 2021, 02:00:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: Vetus Ordo on April 07, 2021, 01:52:42 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jayne on April 07, 2021, 01:40:33 PM ---Since this was not declared a dogma, I don't think it qualifies as heresy, but it is a deeply disturbing display of distancing himself from the traditional teaching of the Church.  I realize that this is not new for him, and perhaps not the most theologically significant incident, but I'm finding it very upsetting.
--- End quote ---

This is a grain of sand compared to the issue of the death penalty. That was a complete reversal of a perennial teaching of Scripture approved by the Pope in his official capacity as supreme pastor and teacher of all Christians, not just as a private teacher.

Granted, he didn't start it. The CCC under Wojtyla and Ratzinger had already muddied the waters but Bergoglio finished it off.

--- End quote ---

Which leaves us with two options: the Church is false and always has been, or, Bergoglio is simply not the Pope.

--- End quote ---

If you're going down that rabbit hole, you won't stop at Bergoglio.

Philip G.:

--- Quote from: Gardener on April 07, 2021, 02:00:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: Vetus Ordo on April 07, 2021, 01:52:42 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jayne on April 07, 2021, 01:40:33 PM ---Since this was not declared a dogma, I don't think it qualifies as heresy, but it is a deeply disturbing display of distancing himself from the traditional teaching of the Church.  I realize that this is not new for him, and perhaps not the most theologically significant incident, but I'm finding it very upsetting.
--- End quote ---

This is a grain of sand compared to the issue of the death penalty. That was a complete reversal of a perennial teaching of Scripture approved by the Pope in his official capacity as supreme pastor and teacher of all Christians, not just as a private teacher.

Granted, he didn't start it. The CCC under Wojtyla and Ratzinger had already muddied the waters but Bergoglio finished it off.

--- End quote ---

Which leaves us with two options: the Church is false and always has been, or, Bergoglio is simply not the Pope.

--- End quote ---

Since the church can be "two or more gathered" in Christ's name, I don't believe the church is false, ever has been, or ever will be.  Even until the end of the world, it is taught there will be "two witnesses".  But, popes can teach error, and have taught error, in my opinion for a long time now.  However, there is no papacy hate here(with me that is).  Christian philosophy is to pull the plank from our own eye, so that we can see clearly to we point out the splinter in our brothers(the pope for example) eye.  It is my opinion, which can be argued, not easily, that as a maxim, before the papacy was wrong, the papacy was right.  But, like everything pertaining to our religion, it does require faith.  It is not based on "reason alone". 

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