Woman, behold they son, and the Co-Redemptrix

Started by Philip G., April 02, 2021, 09:24:38 PM

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Philip G.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 04, 2021, 03:36:49 PM
Phil,
If you are serious abut discussing Catholic teaching; then give us the statements from the Fathers of the Church; Popes or approved doctors of the Church, that deny that Our Blessed Mother is the Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix.

Scripture is not the source of divine revelation.  Tradition is not the source of divine revelation.  Scripture and Tradition are the source of divine revelation. 

What is the source of Scripture?  That is easy, the source of scripture is Almighty God/The Holy Trinity.  What is the source of Tradition?  Need I say anymore?   Scripture and Tradition are ordered.  Our Lord said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away".
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Jayne

Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 04:04:12 PM
Scripture and Tradition are the source of divine revelation. 

And the Church is the interpreter of both.  If you are not prepared to accept that, I suggest you consider putting something other than "Catholic" for the religion listed in your profile.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Philip G.

Quote from: Jayne on April 04, 2021, 04:09:39 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 04:04:12 PM
Scripture and Tradition are the source of divine revelation. 

And the Church is the interpreter of both.  If you are not prepared to accept that, I suggest you consider putting something other than "Catholic" for the religion listed in your profile.

You act like a dragon appointed to guard all the churches treasures.  Jayne, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.  John 4,10 "Jesus answered, and said to her(a samaritan woman), if thou didst know the gift of God, and who he is that saith to thee, Give me to drink, thou perhaps wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."  John 4, 14 "But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting."
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Jayne

Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 04:31:50 PM
You act like a dragon appointed to guard all the churches treasures.  Jayne, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.  John 4,10 "Jesus answered, and said to her(a samaritan woman), if thou didst know the gift of God, and who he is that saith to thee, Give me to drink, thou perhaps wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."  John 4, 14 "But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting."

The Church and her teaching are precious.  I know very well that these are treasures and it disturbs me to see you trample them underfoot.  It is true that you cannot harm the Church but you are doing serious damage to your soul.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Melkor

Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 04, 2021, 01:09:04 PM
The oldest Marian hymn "sub Tuum Praesidium" dates back to the 3rd century.  Here are the Latin and English words:

Sub tuum praesidium
confugimus,
Sancta Dei Genetrix.
Nostras deprecationes ne despicias
in necessitatibus nostris,
sed a periculis cunctis
libera nos semper,
Virgo gloriosa et benedicta

We fly to Thy protection,
O Holy Mother of God;
Do not despise our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us always
from all dangers,
O Glorious and Blessed Virgin.

Wikipedia has a short history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

There is no question that the Church teaches Our Lady as Mediatrix, has done so virtually since the beginning of the Church, and understands this doctrine in a way that is entirely compatible with (correctly interpreted) Scripture.  To reject this doctrine while knowing these things is tantamount to saying that one does not wish to be Catholic.

Catholics understand that whenever we turn to Our Lady her message to us is the same as her words at Cana, "Do whatever He tells you."  There is no contradiction between devotion to Our Lady and devotion to Jesus Christ.

Where again exactly do you get mediatrix from any of that?  When I read the phrase "do not despise our petitions", that implies that Our Lady actually has a right to despise petitions.  For, if she did not, what is the point of our saying it in the prayer?  It would be without relevance our saying it.   

And, if our Lady is mediatrix, would she have a right to despise a prayer?  I would think not, for she would be mediatrix of ALL graces, and it would be her duty to receive and answer our prayers.  And, we are talking the 3rd century here.   

Contrast that with Our Lord, Our Redeemer, who says "seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened unto you".

John 14,14 - "If you shall ask me anything in my name, that I will do."

Despise a prayer? Where did that come from? Do you know anything about the Blessed Virgin?

Look, humility is good for the soul. Admit you are wrong and call it good, it is the best thing you can do. You are dangerously close to becoming  a heretic. Know how all the great heresies started? Some proud fool who thought he knew better than the Church and decided he didn't like a certain teaching, so out it went.
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Michael Wilson

Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 04:04:12 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 04, 2021, 03:36:49 PM
Phil,
If you are serious abut discussing Catholic teaching; then give us the statements from the Fathers of the Church; Popes or approved doctors of the Church, that deny that Our Blessed Mother is the Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix.

Scripture is not the source of divine revelation.  Tradition is not the source of divine revelation.  Scripture and Tradition are the source of divine revelation. 

What is the source of Scripture?  That is easy, the source of scripture is Almighty God/The Holy Trinity.  What is the source of Tradition?  Need I say anymore?   Scripture and Tradition are ordered.  Our Lord said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away".
PhilG,
you didn't understand my question/request; Where in the teaching of the Church Fathers; Popes; doctors, did you find a source that denies that the B.V.M. Is the Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix.
Sacred Scripture cannot be interpreted contrary to what the Church has defined; so again, What is the source of your interpretation?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Philip G.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 04, 2021, 07:15:03 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 04:04:12 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 04, 2021, 03:36:49 PM
Phil,
If you are serious abut discussing Catholic teaching; then give us the statements from the Fathers of the Church; Popes or approved doctors of the Church, that deny that Our Blessed Mother is the Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix.

Scripture is not the source of divine revelation.  Tradition is not the source of divine revelation.  Scripture and Tradition are the source of divine revelation. 

What is the source of Scripture?  That is easy, the source of scripture is Almighty God/The Holy Trinity.  What is the source of Tradition?  Need I say anymore?   Scripture and Tradition are ordered.  Our Lord said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away".
PhilG,
you didn't understand my question/request; Where in the teaching of the Church Fathers; Popes; doctors, did you find a source that denies that the B.V.M. Is the Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix.
Sacred Scripture cannot be interpreted contrary to what the Church has defined; so again, What is the source of your interpretation?

I don't have time to waste with one who doesn't recognize Francis as the pope. 
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Philip G.

#22
Quote from: Jayne on April 04, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 04:31:50 PM
You act like a dragon appointed to guard all the churches treasures.  Jayne, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.  John 4,10 "Jesus answered, and said to her(a samaritan woman), if thou didst know the gift of God, and who he is that saith to thee, Give me to drink, thou perhaps wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."  John 4, 14 "But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting."

The Church and her teaching are precious.  I know very well that these are treasures and it disturbs me to see you trample them underfoot.  It is true that you cannot harm the Church but you are doing serious damage to your soul.

The Church that I believe in and belong to is visible.  With that said, how about you come out from behind your avatar.  I am not the one playing hard to find.  Unlike a fire breathing serpent, "a city seated on a mountain cannot be hid."
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Jayne

Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 11:10:18 PM
I don't have time to waste with one who doesn't recognize Francis as the pope.

Sedevacantism is a more reasonable and Catholic position than dismissing the teaching of men whom one recognizes as popes in order to hold to one's personal interpretation of Scripture, as you have done in this thread.

I may disagree with Michael Wilson on sedevacantism, but I consider it to have been a blessing and privilege to read his posts over the years.  It has been the opposite of a waste of time.   
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Michael Wilson

PhilpG. Stated:
QuoteI don't have time to waste with one who doesn't recognize Francis as the pope. 
O.K. Phil if you wont answer the question because it was posed by a sed; if Jane or another member of the forum who isn't a sed asked you the same question, would you be able to respond with the requested information?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Philip G stated:
QuoteThe Church that I believe in and belong to is visible.  With that said, how about you come out from behind your avatar.  I am not the one playing hard to find.  Unlike a fire breathing serpent, "a city seated on a mountain cannot be hid."
The visibility of the Church would include her teachings; so you should be able to cite an authoritative source which defends your position that Jn.6.44 denies that the B.V.M. Is the Co-redemptrix.
Also why the personal attacks on Jane? Can't you respond to her arguments without resorting to these?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Philip G.
QuoteScripture is not the source of divine revelation.  Tradition is not the source of divine revelation.  Scripture and Tradition are the source of divine revelation.
True, but nobody here is denying this.
Quote
What is the source of Scripture?  That is easy, the source of scripture is Almighty God/The Holy Trinity.  What is the source of Tradition?  Need I say anymore?   Scripture and Tradition are ordered.  Our Lord said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away".
God is the author of all revelation whether written (Sacred Scripture) or handed down orally (Tradition); but we know what Sacred revelation is by the teaching authority of the Church i.e. The Magisterium.
As another poster pointed out earlier, the teaching of the Magisterium is clear on the doctrine of the Co-Redemptrix and you continue to refuse such teaching, preferring your own private interpretation of Sacred Scripture over that of the Church.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Melkor

Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 11:24:39 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 04, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 04:31:50 PM
You act like a dragon appointed to guard all the churches treasures.  Jayne, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.  John 4,10 "Jesus answered, and said to her(a samaritan woman), if thou didst know the gift of God, and who he is that saith to thee, Give me to drink, thou perhaps wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."  John 4, 14 "But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting."

The Church and her teaching are precious.  I know very well that these are treasures and it disturbs me to see you trample them underfoot.  It is true that you cannot harm the Church but you are doing serious damage to your soul.

The Church that I believe in and belong to is visible.  With that said, how about you come out from behind your avatar.  I am not the one playing hard to find.  Unlike a fire breathing serpent, "a city seated on a mountain cannot be hid."

What the heck does that have to do with anything? It's an online forum, who uses a real life picture of themselves as an avatar? And calling someone a fire breathing serpent is really the best you got? Wow man. Playing hard to find? Again, what the heck does this have to do with the argument?  Jayne speaks doctrinal truth, truth  that is accepted by all Catholics without question. Personal interpretation has no place in our religion.
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Miriam_M

Quote from: Philip G. on April 03, 2021, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: Daniel on April 03, 2021, 04:31:45 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 03, 2021, 05:40:41 AM
we have read it this way since the Patristic period

Got any proof? (Not trying to be contrary, but to me it does seem like a novelty. The interpretation of John 19:27, anyway.)

edit - I'll add, "since the Patristic period" is not enough. It's gotta go back to the Apostolic period.

This is correct, the deposit of faith is associated with the apostles.  The deposit of faith is not associated with the fathers/patristic period.

Gentlemen,
It's a both/and.  The orthodoxy of the patristic period is validated by its conformity with the Apostolic period.

Daniel

#29
Quote from: Jayne on April 03, 2021, 06:12:47 PM
If you are concerned with how authoritative this interpretation is, it is more useful to talk about Magisterial teaching.  (I really don't know what you mean by dismissing the teaching of the Fathers of the Church.)

My point is that the Magisterium cannot make up new stuff. If this doctrine does in fact go back to the Apostles then I have no objection; it is then without doubt Magisterial. But the question I'm raising is whether or not it does. I don't see it in the writings of the Apostles or even in the earliest Patristic commentaries. Then again, I haven't done any extensive research. But a plain reading of John 19:26-27 does not seem to say that Jesus gave each individual Catholic to Mary or that Jesus gave Mary to each individual Catholic; it says only that He gave John to Mary and Mary to John. Not only does the plain reading not say that Mary from that point onwards became the Mother of each individual Christian, but I am not aware of any first- or even second-century attestation of this interpretation. Which leads me to believe that it's a later innovation, though I admit the typology of Genesis 3:20 does seem to fit. But the question of "Mediatrix of all graces" is far less clear.