Latin prayers

[Lynne]

What is your, personal, opinion? Is it beneficial for the faithful's soul to understand the liturgy and participate in the dialogue?

I hope you don't mind my jumping in again. I'm sure Vetus Ordo will respond when he gets a chance but of course it's beneficial for the laity to understand the liturgy but no, they do not need to "participate". There is no dialogue (between the priest and the laity). It's difficult for the laity to follow along with the prayers in the Missal because chances are, the priest will recite them more quickly than a person will read them. There's no law that says you can't use the Missal to follow along, I've just found it frustrating, personally, to try and follow along.

Also, one of the many flaws of the new "Mass" is that they force the laity to respond all through the Mass. There's no quiet, personal recollection.
 

[Vetus Ordo]

Given your explanation, I must question my assumption that understanding and participating in the liturgy may benefit the soul. Why would the Church not have done something about it, well before V2? What does our pre-V2 doctrine state on the matter of benefit for the soul (not mere precept)? Was there a debate amongst our Church's learned scholars regariding the matter of benefit for the soul? My interest is limited to the benefit to the soul rather than else.

I'm not aware of any debate. The believer benefits from attending mass because he unites his spirit and his intentions to the sacrifice being offered at the altar. That's the main source of grace. Secondarily, he also benefits from attending mass because he's exposed to the reading of the word of God and to, hopefully, sound preaching. Although not necessary, if the believer actually understands the different parts that constitute the mass, his mind is more in tune with the mind of the Church. He becomes more knowledgeable of the Church's own public prayer and he can meditate on the divine mysteries more in-depth. The Church has encouraged Catholics to follow along the different parts of the mass through missalettes and devotional materials since the invention of the movable-type printing press. Another popular devotion up until recently was to silently pray the rosary during mass. And with the dialogue form of the TLM since the 1920's, you are now encouraged to join in with the servers if you want. The spiritual benefits are not dependent on the method of attending mass but on your inner disposition.

As I understand (but I have just arrived to Catholicism) the motives behind V2 reforms were not so much for the benefit of the soul as much as for modernization, ecumenism, etc..

The reforms proposed by the Council were intended to beneficial to the Church. They wanted to give a renewed foundation for Catholicism in a world of rapid change where the majority of people, even in the countryside, became literate and could read and form their own opinions outside the sphere of ecclesiastical influence, where confessional states were relics of the past and where religious freedom was enshrined as an indisputable civil and human right. Whether or not these disciplinary, doctrinal and liturgical reforms accomplished the goals the Council Fathers had in mind is another question altogether.

What is your, personal, opinion? Is it beneficial for the faithful's soul to understand the liturgy and participate in the dialogue?

Yes, it is beneficial to understand the liturgy. Knowledge is always better than ignorance. You should participate in the dialogue to get used to the TLM and all its different parts. It should become second nature to you. After a few years doing it and sharpening your Latin, you'll probably just want to pray on your own and say nothing at all. It happens with lots of people and I'm one of them.

[Ascanio1]

The believer benefits from attending mass because he unites his spirit and his intentions to the sacrifice being offered at the altar. That's the main source of grace. Secondarily, he also benefits from attending mass because he's exposed to the reading of the word of God and to, hopefully, sound preaching.... CUT ... The spiritual benefits are not dependent on the method of attending mass but on your inner disposition.

Thank you for explaining this and for investing your time again. I believed that prayer and participation produced grace and I am surprised to learn that attendance, alone, is the source.

Yes, it is beneficial to understand the liturgy. Knowledge is always better than ignorance. You should participate in the dialogue to get used to the TLM and all its different parts. It should become second nature to you. After a few years doing it and sharpening your Latin, you'll probably just want to pray on your own and say nothing at all. It happens with lots of people and I'm one of them.

Thank you for your advice and perspective that I will consider carefully. It is all so new to me because for four decades I attended the reformed Mass and switched off (culpably) my free will and intellect and accepted, unquestioningly, everything that I was told.

----------------------

I hope you don't mind my jumping in again. I'm sure Vetus Ordo will respond when he gets a chance but of course it's beneficial for the laity to understand the liturgy but no, they do not need to "participate". There is no dialogue (between the priest and the laity). It's difficult for the laity to follow along with the prayers in the Missal because chances are, the priest will recite them more quickly than a person will read them. There's no law that says you can't use the Missal to follow along, I've just found it frustrating, personally, to try and follow along.

Also, one of the many flaws of the new "Mass" is that they force the laity to respond all through the Mass. There's no quiet, personal recollection.

I do not mind at all, in fact I appreciate your time and help.

I too, find it very frustrating to try to follow along because I cannot do so properly. I purchased 5 different missal versions (from 1937 to 1962) plus I found a few at home (one from 1766): St Andrew, Fr Lasance, St Joseph, Baronius, Angelus, Marian...  None contains the exact rubrics that my priest uses (in Italy) so I finally purchased an Italian version from Edizioni Piane (FSSPX). While this version is much closer than the others, even this one frustrates me as I still cannot focus on the Sacrifice because I am forced to play catch up... very discomforting and distracting.

As you mention I have no time for personal recollection and no time to ponder on the Sacrifice itself.

Perhaps I should stop trying to follow the Mass and simply follow ehat others do. But, in all honesty, I feel uncomfortable to do so.

[Gardener]

When you interact with your loved ones, do you follow a processional document with steps and sub-steps and marginal notes like you are preparing for a missile (missal? Ha!) launch?

Or do you simply love them, converse, interact, etc.?

The beautiful thing about the Mass, whether the Traditional Roman Rite or the Eastern Catholic rites, is that it does not depend on us. This is largely untrue in the Novus Ordo's expectation of "active" participation. The participatio actuosa is "actual" participation, not active in the sense of "doing" something. It's a participation in the actuality of Calvary: offering oneself in prayer to the Father.

Do whatever you need to do that.

Somehow, I doubt it's following the Priest like a robot.

edit:
I should mention that the canards about the Traditional Mass are usually the full opposite of the reality of it. Things like stodgy drama and no role for the laity. It's a lie! There is nothing so free for the laity as the Traditional Mass. It is only in the Novus Ordo and its mindset where we are shackled with expectation.

[Gardener]

If you simply MUST follow something, this is much more prayerful than trying to follow every sacerdotal prayer.

[Ascanio1]

@ Gardner, thank you for engaging in this thread, it is helpful and I appreciate it.

When you interact with your loved ones, do you follow a processional document with steps and sub-steps and marginal notes like you are preparing for a missile (missal? Ha!) launch? Or do you simply love them, converse, interact, etc.?

My relationship to God is different to my relationship to my loved ones. God created us to know and serve him (Baltimore and Trent Council) not to have a friendly relationship with Him. The latter is the heretic luteran approach. God is not a friend, but the Master of the House and there are rules to be followed in order to not displease him.

The beautiful thing about the Mass, whether the Traditional Roman Rite or the Eastern Catholic rites, is that it does not depend on us.

I can see the beauty and purpose in this. I can recognize the kingship of God and I can recognize our duty to praise Him in the way that He taught us. In effect, during the last supper, there was no dialogue. It was a public act complete in itself.

This is largely untrue in the Novus Ordo's expectation of "active" participation. The participatio actuosa is "actual" participation, not active in the sense of "doing" something. It's a participation in the actuality of Calvary: offering oneself in prayer to the Father.

I can recognize also this nuance of the term [participation]. Thank you for pointing it out.

Do whatever you need to do that.

Here is where you and I have different understandings... allow me to explain my perspective. When I was a child I attended Latin Mass every morning. These were the early 70's and my religious tutor was a traditionalist Jesuit who stressed the importance of praying with both intention and accuracy. He would point out that my effort to be accurate was an important part of the offering because God was not my pal but my Master. A Master who loved me infinitely but who could and would exact stern punishment if I faltered. This stuck with me and, today, I cannot detach myself from that notion: there are rules that must be followed to please God - we cannot make up or determine by ourselves in good faith, how to please our Lord.

Somehow, I doubt it's following the Priest like a robot.

Exactly. Yes! And, hence, the importance of understanding the liturgy, not merely repeating it by memory.

edit:
I should mention that the canards about the Traditional Mass are usually the full opposite of the reality of it. Things like stodgy drama and no role for the laity. It's a lie! There is nothing so free for the laity as the Traditional Mass. It is only in the Novus Ordo and its mindset where we are shackled with expectation.

Thank you for this perspective; I am considering it and studying it. So far, from what I am learning, you are correct and the Mass of times, for millenia, did not entertain the laity's dialogue.

If you simply MUST follow something, this is much more prayerful than trying to follow every sacerdotal prayer.

I downloaded the image. Thank you.

[Gardener]

Oh... you want to base your misunderstanding on the Council of Trent (which disagrees with you) and a truncated reason (you left out happiness) for the purpose of man's creation a la the Baltimore Catechism? I'll be your huckleberry.

Council of Trent, Session 6:

CHAPTER VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.

For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

- http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm

Any enemy of what/who? God. Therefore a friend of God.

CHAPTER X.

On the increase of Justification received.

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, "Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity."

- Ibid.

BC3 -

Q. 126. What do we mean by the "end of man"?

A. By the "end of man" we mean the purpose for which he was created: namely, to know, love, and serve God.
...

Q. 150. Why did God make you?

A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

Service, yes. But also to know and love, and be happy [with God].

St. Thomas Aquinas on the friendship inherent to charity:

Reply to Objection 1. God and our neighbor are those with whom we are friends, but love of them includes the loving of charity, since we love both God and our neighbor, in so far as we love ourselves and our neighbor to love God, and this is to love charity.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3025.htm

There are 66 instances of the item friend* (friend, friendship, etc.)

Here's another:

Accordingly, since there is a communication between man and God, inasmuch as He communicates His happiness to us, some kind of friendship must needs be based on this same communication, of which it is written (1 Corinthians 1:9): "God is faithful: by Whom you are called unto the fellowship of His Son." The love which is based on this communication, is charity: wherefore it is evident that charity is the friendship of man for God.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3023.htm

Yes, one should not be flippant in worship. Such would indeed smack of being impious. But God certainly desires our friendship. Christ Himself says as much that He laid "down His life for His friends." (John 15)

He's not a robotic task master. He's not the horrific imagination of Calvin. He's not "Buddy Jesus" of secular report. He's not the laissez-faire hippie of the 1960's. He's God. And He wants to be your friend. Michael Wilson's friend. Vetus Ordo's friend. And for whatever reason I cannot fathom, He even wants to be my friend.

Let's not confuse the boundaries of rubrics and decorum for restriction, but freedom!

"Art is limitation; the essence of every picture is the frame. If you draw a giraffe, you must draw him with a long neck. If in your bold creative way you hold yourself free to draw a giraffe with a short neck, you will really find that you are not free to draw a giraffe."

- G.K. Chesterton

The boundaries one can mistake for limitation and expectation are in fact a great freedom for the liberality of worship true friendship would desire of God. This is why I say that the Novus Ordo, with its expectations, is gaslighting via the canards of the Traditional Mass. In the Novus Ordo there is no room to grieve, breathe, pray, be happy (in a true sense), etc. One has to "do" things. If a friend came to me (or you), and their mother had just passed, such as Michael Wilson's mother did yesterday (RIP), it would be ignorant and uncharitable to not let him be real in his grief. I can't break out the beers and a deck of cards and then get mad when he just wants to sit and talk. Neither does God want us to falsify where we are. True friendship allows the reality of the person, and where they are. It does not expect things which it cannot itself provide.

Hence, if one were to talk about friendship and then have unrealistic expectations, that would not be charitable or friendly.

God doesn't expect robots. He expects worship and friendship. If you can worship within the boundaries of that which is acceptable, that's GREAT!

Sad? be sad. Calvary was sad.

Happy? be happy. Calvary gives us access to it, for it leads to the Resurrection!

Numb? be numb. Calvary can be overwhelming and we shut down sometimes.

The Traditional Mass of the Roman Rite is a buffet of possibility for the layman and priest alike.

And it should be noted that only the priest is expected to "say the black and do the red", because he is acting in persona Christi. But as a man, those rubrics also free him from expectation of self and novelty.

Just don't mistake that we, the laity, are expected to do that except in the manner we are.

...God wants to be your friend. Put the manual down and be His friend too.

[Non Nobis]

Ascanio1,

You need to answer Gardener.

You need to keep learning, and have humility to correct any little and sometimes big errors as you go. Don't just react so strongly to the Lutherans' notions of God's friendship and reject the whole notion of friendship with God; read more closely what Scripture, and the Church and her saints say.

Scripture:

[9]As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. [10] If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love.

[11] These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. [12] This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you. [15] I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.

[Ascanio1]

Ascanio1,
You need to answer Gardener.

Apologies for not replying sooner. My free time is limited.

You need to keep learning, and have humility to correct any little and sometimes big errors as you go.

Yes, of course. I try to do this and this is why I post on Catholic forums.

Don't just react so strongly to the Lutherans' notions of God's friendship and reject the whole notion of friendship with God; read more closely what Scripture, and the Church and her saints say. Scripture:

[9]As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. [10] If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love. [11] These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. [12] This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you. [15] I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.

Thank you. The last phrase is self evident but the Bible does contain other verses that are contradicting.


--------------------------------------

Oh... you want to base your misunderstanding on the Council of Trent (which disagrees with you) and a truncated reason (you left out happiness) for the purpose of man's creation a la the Baltimore Catechism? I'll be your huckleberry. Council of Trent, Session 6:

... CUT ...

Thank you for correcting me. I apprecite that you take your time to help me.

There are 66 instances of the item friend* (friend, friendship, etc.)
...CUT ...
Yes, one should not be flippant in worship. Such would indeed smack of being impious. But God certainly desires our friendship. Christ Himself says as much that He laid "down His life for His friends." (John 15)
He's not a robotic task master. He's not the horrific imagination of Calvin. He's not "Buddy Jesus" of secular report. He's not the laissez-faire hippie of the 1960's. He's God. And He wants to be your friend. Michael Wilson's friend. Vetus Ordo's friend. And for whatever reason I cannot fathom, He even wants to be my friend.
Let's not confuse the boundaries of rubrics and decorum for restriction, but freedom!
...CUT ...
God doesn't expect robots. He expects worship and friendship. If you can worship within the boundaries of that which is acceptable, that's GREAT!
...CUT ...
God wants to be your friend. Put the manual down and be His friend too.

Again, thank you for pointing to me a different eprspective that I will study with attention. I find it convincing.

Would I be correct to summarize your post, thus:

I must serve and fear God and this will lead to my happiness and His friendship. He's not a pal but He's also not a tyrant.

?

[Non Nobis]

Ascanio1,
You need to answer Gardener.

Apologies for not replying sooner. My free time is limited.

You need to keep learning, and have humility to correct any little and sometimes big errors as you go.

Yes, of course. I try to do this and this is why I post on Catholic forums.

Don't just react so strongly to the Lutherans' notions of God's friendship and reject the whole notion of friendship with God; read more closely what Scripture, and the Church and her saints say. Scripture:

[9]As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. [10] If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love. [11] These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. [12] This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you. [15] I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.

Thank you. The last phrase is self evident but the Bible does contain other verses that are contradicting.


--------------------------------------

Oh... you want to base your misunderstanding on the Council of Trent (which disagrees with you) and a truncated reason (you left out happiness) for the purpose of man's creation a la the Baltimore Catechism? I'll be your huckleberry. Council of Trent, Session 6:

... CUT ...

Thank you for correcting me. I apprecite that you take your time to help me.

There are 66 instances of the item friend* (friend, friendship, etc.)
...CUT ...
Yes, one should not be flippant in worship. Such would indeed smack of being impious. But God certainly desires our friendship. Christ Himself says as much that He laid "down His life for His friends." (John 15)
He's not a robotic task master. He's not the horrific imagination of Calvin. He's not "Buddy Jesus" of secular report. He's not the laissez-faire hippie of the 1960's. He's God. And He wants to be your friend. Michael Wilson's friend. Vetus Ordo's friend. And for whatever reason I cannot fathom, He even wants to be my friend.
Let's not confuse the boundaries of rubrics and decorum for restriction, but freedom!
...CUT ...
God doesn't expect robots. He expects worship and friendship. If you can worship within the boundaries of that which is acceptable, that's GREAT!
...CUT ...
God wants to be your friend. Put the manual down and be His friend too.

Again, thank you for pointing to me a different eprspective that I will study with attention. I find it convincing.

Would I be correct to summarize your post, thus:

I must serve and fear God and this will lead to my happiness and His friendship. He's not a pal but He's also not a tyrant.

?

God asks us to fear and serve; this is basic and we need to hear this.

But God also asks still more of our love, and so much more intimately and confidently;

Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? [37] Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment. [39] And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

I don't love God like that, but I acknowledge that I ought to.  Don't be afraid of acknowledging such things even if it doesn't seem possible and you just don't understand. We ought to try to love God at Mass in this way: it is His sacrifice of love for us reenacted. Do you see that a little?

I  guess we have to try to understand little by little.... meditate on the Lord.

[Ascanio1]

Thank you for the precious advice on which I will meditate... I appreciated that you invested your time to help me.