The problem(s) with the Baltimore Catechism?

Started by GiftOfGod, December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM

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GiftOfGod

December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM
I have seen vague criticism from Eastern Rite Catholics of the Baltimore Catechism? I am wondering if they have anything concrete or if it just another "Latin" thing they hate.

What problems do you have with it?

Note: do not discuss BOB/BOD.
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.

diaduit

#1
December 05, 2020, 02:41:51 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM
I have seen vague criticism from Eastern Rite Catholics of the Baltimore Catechism? I am wondering if they have anything concrete or if it just another "Latin" thing they hate.

What problems do you have with it?

Note: do not discuss BOB/BOD.

or dating  :) :)

Prayerful

#2
December 05, 2020, 06:16:34 AM
Who's Bob? Is he unwell?
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

truly-a-philosofan

#3
December 05, 2020, 06:55:46 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM
I have seen vague criticism from Eastern Rite Catholics of the Baltimore Catechism? I am wondering if they have anything concrete or if it just another "Latin" thing they hate.

What problems do you have with it?

Note: do not discuss BOB/BOD.

They're probably Zoghbyist heretics.
Christ as the Source of all beauty:
« What surprised him (Blessed Henry Suso) most was to see Eternal Wisdom now under the aspect of a young maiden, the prodigy of heavenly and earthly beauty; now under the form of a young man whose countenance reflected all the beauties to be found on earth. »
St. Louis de Monfort, The Love of Eternal Wisdom, Chapter 11, no. 132.

Michael Wilson

#4
December 05, 2020, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: Prayerful on December 05, 2020, 06:16:34 AM
Who's Bob? Is he unwell?
I hear he has pains in his Bod.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

GiftOfGod

#5
December 05, 2020, 11:41:34 AM
Quote from: diaduit on December 05, 2020, 02:41:51 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM
I have seen vague criticism from Eastern Rite Catholics of the Baltimore Catechism? I am wondering if they have anything concrete or if it just another "Latin" thing they hate.

What problems do you have with it?

Note: do not discuss BOB/BOD.

or dating  :) :)

Dating has shit to do with the Baltimore Catechism, whereas BOB/BOD is the most common trad criticism of it. BOB/BOD debate isn't allowed on this web site.
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.

Michael Wilson

#6
December 05, 2020, 05:56:35 PM
It was humorous; or so I thought.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

diaduit

#7
December 06, 2020, 01:46:29 AM Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 01:58:05 AM by diaduit
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 05, 2020, 11:41:34 AM
Quote from: diaduit on December 05, 2020, 02:41:51 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM
I have seen vague criticism from Eastern Rite Catholics of the Baltimore Catechism? I am wondering if they have anything concrete or if it just another "Latin" thing they hate.

What problems do you have with it?

Note: do not discuss BOB/BOD.


or dating  :) :)

Dating has shit to do with the Baltimore Catechism, whereas BOB/BOD is the most common trad criticism of it. BOB/BOD debate isn't allowed on this web site.


Apologies GoG, it was humour.  Dismiss it so.

Fixed it, that's better.

GiftOfGod

#8
December 06, 2020, 01:47:46 AM
Quote from: diaduit on December 06, 2020, 01:46:29 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 05, 2020, 11:41:34 AM
Quote from: diaduit on December 05, 2020, 02:41:51 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM
I have seen vague criticism from Eastern Rite Catholics of the Baltimore Catechism? I am wondering if they have anything concrete or if it just another "Latin" thing they hate.

What problems do you have with it?

Note: do not discuss BOB/BOD.


Apologies GoG, it was humour.  Dismiss it so.
or dating  :) :)

Dating has shit to do with the Baltimore Catechism, whereas BOB/BOD is the most common trad criticism of it. BOB/BOD debate isn't allowed on this web site.

I see that you've finally learned how to use the quoting function.
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.

abc123

#9
December 06, 2020, 08:22:35 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 06, 2020, 01:47:46 AM
Quote from: diaduit on December 06, 2020, 01:46:29 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 05, 2020, 11:41:34 AM
Quote from: diaduit on December 05, 2020, 02:41:51 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM
I have seen vague criticism from Eastern Rite Catholics of the Baltimore Catechism? I am wondering if they have anything concrete or if it just another "Latin" thing they hate.

What problems do you have with it?

Note: do not discuss BOB/BOD.


Apologies GoG, it was humour.  Dismiss it so.
or dating  :) :)

Dating has shit to do with the Baltimore Catechism, whereas BOB/BOD is the most common trad criticism of it. BOB/BOD debate isn't allowed on this web site.

I see that you've finally learned how to use the quoting function.

Unfortunately you still haven't learned manners or to show maturity in discourse.


christulsa

#10
December 06, 2020, 08:51:09 AM

Jayne

#11
December 06, 2020, 10:31:28 AM
Quote from: christulsa on December 06, 2020, 08:51:09 AM
https://countdown.onlineclock.net/

Is this a countdown to christulsa's next dramatic exit from the forum in which he denounces us and says he is leaving for ever?  I've been expecting it since it seems that one is due around now.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

christulsa

#12
December 06, 2020, 10:43:46 AM
Quote from: Jayne on December 06, 2020, 10:31:28 AM
Quote from: christulsa on December 06, 2020, 08:51:09 AM
https://countdown.onlineclock.net/

Is this a countdown to christulsa's next dramatic exit from the forum in which he denounces us and says he is leaving for ever?  I've been expecting it since it seems that one is due around now.

I denounced you, lol, you perpetual Mother Hen.  I'm staying.

Jayne

#13
December 06, 2020, 11:00:57 AM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on December 04, 2020, 09:43:49 PM
I have seen vague criticism from Eastern Rite Catholics of the Baltimore Catechism? I am wondering if they have anything concrete or if it just another "Latin" thing they hate.

What problems do you have with it?

You seem to be looking specifically for criticisms from the perspective of Eastern Rite Catholics. I can't answer that, but I found a paper that approaches the question from a historical perspective.  Here is the pdf: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/48606975.pdf

There is an account of publishing the BC starting around page 83 followed by descriptions of its earliest criticisms.   These seem to be mainly about lack of Scripture references and pedagogical concerns.

I have seen general criticisms of the BC that claim it exhibits Americanism, an error which was condemned in the Encyclical, Testem Benevolentiae https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13teste.htm.  I can see why people might suspect that due to the timing, but I cannot recall ever seeing any specific examples of it cited from the BC.  So I am skeptical of this claim.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Jayne

#14
December 06, 2020, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: christulsa on December 06, 2020, 10:43:46 AM
I denounced you, lol, you perpetual Mother Hen.  I'm staying.

I am not sure (nor do I really care) why you consider "Mother Hen" an insult.  I think it is quite understandable that a woman my age would feel motherly concern toward younger forum members.  Why one would denounce this is beyond me.  It seems like a positive quality, if anything.

At any rate, I take your claims about staying no more seriously than I take your claims about leaving.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
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