Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils

Started by Vetus Ordo, June 04, 2021, 09:25:35 PM

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Vetus Ordo

Another excellent video from MHFM.

A devastating critique of the Eastern Orthodox's "reception theory" that does not differ, in essence, from Sola Scriptura or any other subjective methodology that robs the Church of Christ of Her divine authority to teach and govern the flock.

Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_35whxfeY2I[/yt]
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

TheReturnofLive

#1
Being devils advocate here, the Papacy doesn't resolve the issue whatsoever considering that people can't define what's infallible and what's fallible, if the Pope can contradict past Popes, if the Pope can contradict Scripture, etc.

The infallible "Chair of Peter" is nowadays very amorphous

The Papacy is equally as subjective as the amorphous concept of "Tradition" - let's not also forget the irony of this video being made by Sedevacantists who recognize Papal authority until it debatably contradicted Papal authority

You can say that "well it's less subjective considering that we can recognize councils" - ignoring the fact that many Catholics here don't recognize Vatican II, it doesn't mean much when the theological authority is still ambiguous.

Good luck explaining whether the death penalty is immoral or not, or whether adulterers May receive communion
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Xavier

The best way to resolve the disagreement would be a Joint Council of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Lyons II and Florence attempted such re-union Councils. A prospective Nicaea III has been planned for 2025, and there also are some efforts to commemorate 2033 in a big way by all Christian Churches together. I have hope for both gatherings. I pray Our Lord intervenes to make His Church One.

[Edit: See: https://conservapedia.com/Grand_Jubilee_Year_2033 and https://www.conservapedia.com/Essay:_Third_Ecumenical_Nicene_Council_2025]

Nice Video, Vetus. The Dimonds make a valid point, and Eastern Orthodoxy has not been able to overcome this "fatal flaw" for a long time. If Group of Bishops A and Group of Bishops B disagree, Orthodoxy has no built-in mechanism for the faithful to discern who is right. The question is more than theoretical, it is acutely practical. For Catholics, the answer is simple. The Pope and the Bishops with him are right.

Still, as Live points out, the Dimonds are SVs, and that weakens their argument. The best argument against SVism is Universal Acceptance. Since all the recent 6 Popes for 63 years have had UA, it follows that they are valid Popes, and the See of Peter hasn't been vacant for all this time. Other than that weakness, the arguments of the Dimond Brothers are generally good. I pray for Catholic-Orthodox Re-Union one day.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

TheReturnofLive

Still, and for some reason, as Vetus points out, MHFM makes informative videos when it comes to heterodox religions (from their perspective)
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Insanis

EDIT: I decided not to have active discussions with non-Catholics on this forum.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: Xavier on June 05, 2021, 07:00:10 AMThe best way to resolve the disagreement would be a Joint Council of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Lyons II and Florence attempted such re-union Councils. A prospective Nicaea III has been planned for 2025, and there also are some efforts to commemorate 2033 in a big way by all Christian Churches together. I have hope for both gatherings. I pray Our Lord intervenes to make His Church One.

This was already achieved at Lyons and Florence with the highest degree of solemnity.

However, after assenting to the decisions of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, the Eastern churches quickly turned their backs on it, just "as a dog that returneth to his vomit" (Pro. 26:11).
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on June 05, 2021, 12:49:09 AM
Being devils advocate here, the Papacy doesn't resolve the issue whatsoever considering that people can't define what's infallible and what's fallible, if the Pope can contradict past Popes, if the Pope can contradict Scripture, etc.

Regardless of the questions surrounding traditional Catholicism and the interpretation of Vatican II, the critique stands.

The Eastern Orthodox "reception theory" is an ahistorical and unworkable methodology that has essentially robbed the Church of God of Her authority to govern the flock.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

St.Justin


St.Justin

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on June 05, 2021, 12:49:09 AM
Being devils advocate here, the Papacy doesn't resolve the issue whatsoever considering that people can't define what's infallible and what's fallible, if the Pope can contradict past Popes, if the Pope can contradict Scripture, etc.

The infallible "Chair of Peter" is nowadays very amorphous

The Papacy is equally as subjective as the amorphous concept of "Tradition" - let's not also forget the irony of this video being made by Sedevacantists who recognize Papal authority until it debatably contradicted Papal authority

You can say that "well it's less subjective considering that we can recognize councils" - ignoring the fact that many Catholics here don't recognize Vatican II, it doesn't mean much when the theological authority is still ambiguous.

Good luck explaining whether the death penalty is immoral or not, or whether adulterers May receive communion

There 277 infallible prouncements you can look the up.

Vetus Ordo

DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

TheReturnofLive

Quote from: St.Justin on June 07, 2021, 06:13:37 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on June 05, 2021, 12:49:09 AM
Being devils advocate here, the Papacy doesn't resolve the issue whatsoever considering that people can't define what's infallible and what's fallible, if the Pope can contradict past Popes, if the Pope can contradict Scripture, etc.

The infallible "Chair of Peter" is nowadays very amorphous

The Papacy is equally as subjective as the amorphous concept of "Tradition" - let's not also forget the irony of this video being made by Sedevacantists who recognize Papal authority until it debatably contradicted Papal authority

You can say that "well it's less subjective considering that we can recognize councils" - ignoring the fact that many Catholics here don't recognize Vatican II, it doesn't mean much when the theological authority is still ambiguous.

Good luck explaining whether the death penalty is immoral or not, or whether adulterers May receive communion

There 277 infallible prouncements you can look the up.

Really, there are 277 infallible pronouncements? What are they?
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

TheReturnofLive

#11
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on June 05, 2021, 02:31:56 PM
Quote from: Xavier on June 05, 2021, 07:00:10 AMThe best way to resolve the disagreement would be a Joint Council of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Lyons II and Florence attempted such re-union Councils. A prospective Nicaea III has been planned for 2025, and there also are some efforts to commemorate 2033 in a big way by all Christian Churches together. I have hope for both gatherings. I pray Our Lord intervenes to make His Church One.

This was already achieved at Lyons and Florence with the highest degree of solemnity.

However, after assenting to the decisions of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, the Eastern churches quickly turned their backs on it, just "as a dog that returneth to his vomit" (Pro. 26:11).

I wouldn't be so hasty Mr. Judge, calling the spiritual life of the Catholic Church's sister churches* "vomit"

*See epistemological source of certainty, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000630_chiese-sorelle_en.html , citing epistemological source of certainty "Unitatis redintegratio" from the Ecumenical Vatican II Council, which is a source of epistemological certainty, as defined the Pope, the source of epistemological certainty via the Chair of Peter, the source of epistemological certainty

Why the fire and brimstone attitude? What, wrestling with the possibility that the truth may be in the conclaves of Slavs and Greeks who don't speak your tongue?
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Fleur-de-Lys

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on June 07, 2021, 08:16:59 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on June 05, 2021, 02:31:56 PM
Quote from: Xavier on June 05, 2021, 07:00:10 AMThe best way to resolve the disagreement would be a Joint Council of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Lyons II and Florence attempted such re-union Councils. A prospective Nicaea III has been planned for 2025, and there also are some efforts to commemorate 2033 in a big way by all Christian Churches together. I have hope for both gatherings. I pray Our Lord intervenes to make His Church One.

This was already achieved at Lyons and Florence with the highest degree of solemnity.

However, after assenting to the decisions of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, the Eastern churches quickly turned their backs on it, just "as a dog that returneth to his vomit" (Pro. 26:11).

I wouldn't be so hasty Mr. Judge, calling the spiritual life of the Catholic Church's sister churches* "vomit"

Rhetoric really is a lost art.

QuoteWhy the fire and brimstone attitude? What, wrestling with the possibility that the truth may be in the conclaves of Slavs and Greeks who don't speak your tongue?

Vetus speaks both Greek and Russian.

TheReturnofLive

My sub-mediocre poetic grace does not render my point mute
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Fleur-de-Lys