Author Topic: Predestination  (Read 76863 times)

Offline james03

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1020 on: April 07, 2015, 03:37:35 PM »
It is interesting to me that both the radical molinist/pellagian and the Banez/G-L crowd can not consistently condemn the post Vat. II Church, or any heretical sect for that matter.

The molinist/pelagian will say that a man who does good will be given grace to be saved because God foresees the good act of the man and rewards him.

The G-L Thomist will say that the circumstances a person is in is meaningless, otherwise depending on these circumstances would make God a passive God.  Therefore it doesn't matter if the Church is Trad or novus ordo, or lutheran when it comes to salvation of souls.

Only the congruist deals with this situation well.  A person in an atheist country, or a happy-clappy inclusive gay novus ordo are not in a situation that is congruent to God's antecedent Will of salvation.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

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Offline LouisIX

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1021 on: April 07, 2015, 04:55:15 PM »
It is interesting to me that both the radical molinist/pellagian and the Banez/G-L crowd can not consistently condemn the post Vat. II Church, or any heretical sect for that matter.

The molinist/pelagian will say that a man who does good will be given grace to be saved because God foresees the good act of the man and rewards him.

The G-L Thomist will say that the circumstances a person is in is meaningless, otherwise depending on these circumstances would make God a passive God.  Therefore it doesn't matter if the Church is Trad or novus ordo, or lutheran when it comes to salvation of souls.

Woah.  That is quite a jump.  This doesn't mean that heresies or theological errors are not dangerous.  It merely posits that God is not being overcome by them.  He is not frustrated by Modernism.  He is the true king.  He allows heresies for a greater good.  He dominates in all things.  He is never dominated.  He is the architect of all good, not dispositions or even circumstances. 

What circumstances escape the providence of God?  The congruist (as exemplified by what you said above, but likely not all congruists) neuters God to some sort of very powerful, but not supreme being.  He often wins, but He does not always win.  He's just the biggest kid on the block.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 04:57:16 PM by LouisIX »
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Offline james03

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1022 on: April 07, 2015, 05:34:39 PM »
Quote
The congruist (as exemplified by what you said above, but likely not all congruists) neuters God to some sort of very powerful, but not supreme being.
No, the congruist limits God to God.  By Divine Simplicity, God is Truth.  Therefore He can not deny Himself by an absurdity.

The G-L position of God without limits can easily be used to show that a belief in sacraments is an insult to an all powerful God.  Baptism?  God gave someone Faith to say the altar call prayer.  He don't need no baptism.  Eucharist?  Unless it comes down like manna, doesn't exist. God doesn't use a priest since this would show a passive God.  Since it doesn't come down like manna, then it doesn't exist, except as bread and wine.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 

Offline LouisIX

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1023 on: April 07, 2015, 06:01:27 PM »
That's a complete bastardization of the Thomist position.  You know that none of them hold that.

You're missing the complexities of providence.  God is not limited by His sacraments.  He is not limited by the Church, but He does utilize these things as His means for doing x, y, or z.

The primary cause of the loss of original sin is not baptism as somehow compartmentalized from God.  It is God's hand in the sacrament.  If that were not the case, the sacrament would be entirely inefficacious.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 

Offline james03

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1024 on: April 07, 2015, 06:30:15 PM »
Quote
That's a complete bastardization of the Thomist position.
Correct.  Thank goodness we have Bellarmine to fix it.

Quote
  God is not limited by His sacraments.  He is not limited by the Church, but He does utilize these things as His means for doing x, y, or z.
That is correct.  And He utilizes congruence to effect His Sovereign plan.  Thus most atheist Chinese are not saved, and all who die atheist are not saved.  Also, the Vat. II Church has caused the loss of salvation and we need to get back to the Trad religion.  Congruence, a beautiful Thomistic theory.

"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 

Offline Geremia

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1025 on: October 09, 2017, 04:38:36 PM »
God gives to all "sufficient grace" for their salvation, meaning, sufficient actual grace which, if not resisted, will lead to the performance of necessary supernaturally good acts (e.g. repentance, acts of virtue, etc.) which lead to salvation.  But God only gives to some "efficacious grace" which actually results in the performance of those good acts.  The relation of sufficient to efficacious grace is that of potency to act.
Why would sufficient grace be only potential grace? That's like saying my birthday present is only potentially a present until I accept it and open it up.
God has to reduce the potency to act; the individual cannot be the first cause of that.
Yes, God is the ultimate cause of every change, even a person's change from not acting to acting.
So if God grants sufficient grace (the potency) AND the motion (e.g. non-resistance), then efficient grace will be granted as a consequence.
What's wrong with that?

So, the G-Lists claim, it is an individual's fault if he is damned because he resisted sufficient grace - if he hadn't resisted, the grace would have [also] been efficacious.  Yet, they also claim, he will infallibly resist (although he "could" have not resisted) unless the [sufficient] grace was [also] efficacious; but in that case, he will infallibly consent.
So?


Fr. Hardon defines "efficacious grace":
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The actual grace to which free consent is given by the will so that the grace produces its divinely intended effect. In the controversy between the Dominicans [led by Báñez (1528-1604)] and the Jesuits [led by Molina (1525-1600)] there was no agreement on what precisely causes an actual grace to become efficacious. In the Báñezian theory, the efficacy of such grace depends on the character of the grace itself; in the Molinist theory, it depends on the fact that it is given under circumstances that God foresees to be congruous with the dispositions of the person receiving the grace. In every Catholic theory, however, it is agreed that efficacious grace does not necessitate the will or destroy human freedom. (Etym. Latin efficax, powerful, effective, efficient, gratia, favor freely given.)
See also pp. ~115-121 (PDF pp. 71-71) of Parente & Piolanti's Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology.
Fr. G.-L. concisely summarized the debate in the intro. of his Grace: Commentary on the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas, Chapter One:
Quote from: Fr. G.-L.
these contradictory propositions: “Grace is intrinsically efficacious,” and “Grace is not intrinsically efficacious,” cannot be true at the same time or false at the same time; one is true, the other is false. The first is maintained by Thomism, the second by Molinism and likewise by the congruism of Suarez. Which, then, is true remains to be discovered.

Offline james03

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1026 on: October 09, 2017, 07:07:34 PM »
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these contradictory propositions: “Grace is intrinsically efficacious,” and “Grace is not intrinsically efficacious,” cannot be true at the same time or false at the same time; one is true, the other is false. The first is maintained by Thomism, the second by Molinism and likewise by the congruism of Suarez. Which, then, is true remains to be discovered.
  The Congruentist holds that all Grace is efficacious.  It does not return to God barren.  There is no distinction in Actual Graces.  They all accomplish their purpose.  If God sends a Grace to bring hell to your imagination, it will happen. 

The Banez Thomist holds to a Grace called sufficient Grace that is not instrinsically efficacious.  So you have a problem.
Quote
Yes, God is the ultimate cause of every change, even a person's change from not acting to acting.
  God is indeed the First Cause.  The Efficient Cause of Man's good will choice is Man.  So teaches St. Thomas.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"If what they are saying is true, the problem is not that they are the ones saying it: the problem is that we are not the ones saying it."
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1027 on: October 09, 2017, 08:39:08 PM »
This is a two-and-a-half year old thread.  If anyone is still interested in discussing predestination I'm going to start a new thread in the Sacred Sciences section where it properly belongs.
The real purpose of traditionalist polemics is not to find truth, but to attempt to construct an epistemological fortress rendering one's worldview impervious to attack.
 
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