Extra terrestrial and Church teaching

[Gerard]

Peace be with you Gerard,

You are assuming that the images on radar or the testimony of pilots refer to actual tridimensional constructs.  It is all testimony.  There is no evidence for it whatsoever.  There are no metals to examine, no   specific beings known to exist. Nothing but testimony of shadows and light.

Granted, much of it may be testimony but I wouldn't be so quick to discount that. Our religion is founded on testimony, there is no hard evidence for our Lord walking on water, raising the dead, or ascending into heaven. We believe it on the basis of what others claim to have seen and heard.

That makes sense.  But we're discussing a religion on one hand and a phenomena on another.  If we want to discuss Ufology as a religion then we can go from the premise of faith. 

The alien "Grays" never showed up until the Betty and Barney Hill event and just coincidentally, it was only a short time after "The Bellero Shield"  episode of "The Outer Limits." As Aquinas states, the demons can pluck images out of the imaginations of men and present them to their senses. 

You're simply incorrect here, Gerard. The Betty and Barney Hill abduction took place on September 19-20th, 1961 and was reported to Pease Airforce Base on September 21, 1961.

The outerlimits episode you refer to first aired on February 10, 1964.

Obviously the latter can not be the generator of the former incident. I believe the earliest known abduction was that of Antonio Vilas-Boas, a Brazilian farmer who later became a lawyer. Interestingly his account as well as that of Barney Hill involved the extraction of sperm.

I'm sorry. I was going on memory.  It turned out that "the grays" only showed up in Barney's hypnosis sessions after the Outer Limits episode.  There was a great deal of contradiction between his and Betty's descriptions of the aliens.  "Big noses like Jimmy Durante" was one of Betty's descriptions.

All of it can be quantified as possibly demonic because it is all testimony from the imaginations of people and the witnessing of things in a reflected light atmosphere.  Even the radar signals are not without their own "ghosts" and irregularities.

A man's imagination does not reflect radar, leave radiation on the ground, permit others to touch physical craft.

Demons can attack or pull off a hoax on many fronts at once.  What physical craft has been found?  Or is that just more testimony? 

We have an idea of what demons can do based on the testimony we already have. Demons do not construct vehicles!

I'm sorry. I have to laugh.  "Demons do not construct vehicles! Aliens do!"

What vehicles? We don't have any vehicles constructed by demons or aliens. 

[tradical]

Without jumping to conclusions, my understanding is that if there are what are commonly called 'aliens', they would be another order of creatures, just as the Angels are another order of creation.  They would simply not be in the scriptures.

However, it is important to remember that we are not alone.  As noted (http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2017/12/are-we-alone.html), we are already aware of creatures that possess the ability to mess with humanity and they have been for millennia (ie fallen angels).

It would be child's play for a fallen angel to dupe even the most advanced sensors.

There are some interesting critiques of various abduction and 'visit' stories.  One of which is the continual shifting of the stories (where they are from) and their apparel / appearance.  Even the question that they never seem to have problems with earth's gravity, atmosphere etc.

I also found it of interest that in one account a person who was 'visited' soon after committed suicide.  Something that would be a fallen angel's objective - the damnation of a soul.

[Sojourn]

Without jumping to conclusions, my understanding is that if there are what are commonly called 'aliens', they would be another order of creatures, just as the Angels are another order of creation.  They would simply not be in the scriptures.

However, it is important to remember that we are not alone.  As noted (http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2017/12/are-we-alone.html), we are already aware of creatures that possess the ability to mess with humanity and they have been for millennia (ie fallen angels).

It would be child's play for a fallen angel to dupe even the most advanced sensors.

There are some interesting critiques of various abduction and 'visit' stories.  One of which is the continual shifting of the stories (where they are from) and their apparel / appearance.  Even the question that they never seem to have problems with earth's gravity, atmosphere etc.

I also found it of interest that in one account a person who was 'visited' soon after committed suicide.  Something that would be a fallen angel's objective - the damnation of a soul.

Peace be with you,

I read your brief blog post, you ascribed intellectual laziness to people who say this phenomenona is "natural", which I take to mean real living beings of some sort. Respectfully brother I would contend ascribing this to the demonic is the real cop out. Demons simply don't and can't do what the data attributes to this phenomena. Radiation readings, indents on ground, burned retinas, visible craft of metallic nature. This is not the work bodiless spiritual beings.

Most Catholics don't look at the data rather they start with a theological hypothesis and argue from that point. Such phenomenona is problematic to certain currents of theological thinking but that should not shy us away from objectively reviewing this information.

[Gardener]

Did an angel stir the waters at the pool of probatica (John 5)? According to you, spirits cannot affect physical phenomena. But it's right there in Scripture.

[Sojourn]

Did an angel stir the waters at the pool of probatica (John 5)? According to you, spirits cannot affect physical phenomena. But it's right there in Scripture.

Peace be with you Gardener,

There does appear to be a degree of separation between the natural and preternatural spheres. The ordinary operation of fallen angels is on our imagination and temptation. It's rare and exceptional for them to manifest a physical power in the natural world and almost always requires a voluntary invitation by a human being as in the case of possession.

So whIle a physical effect is possible, there does appear to be some inhibition on what demons can do. We don't find them regularly disrupting power grids, messing with radar to cause plans to crash, or creating spoof forum accounts on forums such as this. Some of this may sound facetious, but if demons exist and have the power some ascribe to them in this thread, why don't we see such manifestations? Is it the demons don't want to wreck havoc on humans or is they do but are unable to? I contend it's the latter.

Ultimately people who urge this is demonic offer no clear test of discerning demonic from natural activity. If a car rams into you, your thought isn't a demon did it, but when a metallic craft is seen that leaves imprints on the ground, radiation markings, breaks tree branches, and burbs the retinas of people staring at it, then it's a spiritual phenomenona caused by angels? No, it's a physical craft of unknown origin. That this may trouble people adhering to certain theological hypotheses has no impact on the reality of the data. By all accounts if the data is true where dealing with a bizarre and perhaps terrifying natural phenomena.

[Miriam_M]

That this may trouble people adhering to certain theological hypotheses has no impact on the reality of the data. By all accounts if the data is true where dealing with a bizarre and perhaps terrifying natural phenomena.

a.  I question the "data," and always have.  It's far less reliable than most of private revelation.
b.  All the people I have met, and whose statements I have read, who are overly fascinated with ET "sightings" have no faith in God; they are admitted atheists.
c.  Many such people (b) behave regarding these "phenomena" as if ET is in fact their substitute religion.  The relationship between Point b and Point c is entirely logical.
d.  The "theological hypotheses" I adhere to are that
   (1) God is in charge, not just of humanity and all of creation; He cannot be vanquished by any force or creature.  This is de fide dogma which must be believed under pain of mortal sin.
   (2) Because of (1), being "terrified" about the remote possibility of ET "life" is irrational, and, i.m.o., unholy because it reveals lack of faith.

[Sojourn]

Fear is a natural human response and faith won't necessarily make it go away. The existence of alien whether it be interdimensional, extra planetart, or God knows will spark fear and cause many a paradigm to shift. Philosophies and doctrines that brought a sense of order and understanding of the universe will be dismantled. In essence, we will face chaos and uncertainty of an intellectual sort. I think this is why there is an aversion to looking at the data as it is and throwing it under the demonic sphere, it let's us remain comfortable and within an ordered paradigm.

[Jayne]

Just to play devil's advocate: Put yourself in the shoes of a 15th century explorer who just discovered a whole new world teeming with intelligent life. Did anyone understand at that moment how those people got there in the first place? Jesus Christ never walked in that world.

There actually was theological and other speculation before this point on whether people could exist on the other side of the world.  Many people concluded that the answer was no.  This was not because they were stupid but because they had insufficient data.  I think this is our own situation regarding extraterrestrials.

The Vatican currently (whether or not one considers this as Church) encourages speculation on extraterrrestrials.   Here is an article: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-vatican-on-space-the-discovery-of-intelligent-life-wouldnt-mean-theres-an-alien-jesus-somewhere-10433527.html
And here is an article about a 2014 conference on the subject cohosted by the Vatican Observatory:

Are we alone in the universe? The ultimate question of life beyond Earth and the solar system takes center stage in a science conference led by the Vatican Observatory and a University of Arizona this week.

Nearly 200 scientists are attending the conference, called "The Search for Life Beyond the Solar System: Exoplanets, Biosignature & Instruments," which runs from March 16 through 21 in Tucson, Ariz. The Vatican Observatory is co-hosting the conference with the University of Arizona's Steward Observatory.

"Finding life beyond Earth is one of the great challenges of modern science and we are excited to have the world leaders in this field together in Tucson," said event co-chair Daniel Apai, assistant professor of astronomy and planetary sciences at the UA Steward Observatory, in a statement. "But reaching such an ambitious goal takes planning and time. The goal of this meeting is to discuss how we can find life among the stars within the next two decades."

https://www.space.com/25060-vatican-observatory-alien-life-conference.html

[Miriam_M]

The Vatican currently (whether or not one considers this as Church) encourages speculation on extraterrrestrials.   

The Vatican currently promotes lots of things and ignores many dangers in the Church and the modern world. 

Consider the source.  Not much to recommend there.

[Prayerful]

The Vatican currently (whether or not one considers this as Church) encourages speculation on extraterrrestrials.   

The Vatican currently promotes lots of things and ignores many dangers in the Church and the modern world. 

Consider the source.  Not much to recommend there.

Francis considers it morally wrong to limit migration or rather invasion and colonisation by those Mohammadan invaders, which is just one among many harmful things on which the Conciliar Church 'encourages speculation.' There no good, credible evidence for ET, unless you count the movie.

[tradical]

Without jumping to conclusions, my understanding is that if there are what are commonly called 'aliens', they would be another order of creatures, just as the Angels are another order of creation.  They would simply not be in the scriptures.

However, it is important to remember that we are not alone.  As noted (http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2017/12/are-we-alone.html), we are already aware of creatures that possess the ability to mess with humanity and they have been for millennia (ie fallen angels).

It would be child's play for a fallen angel to dupe even the most advanced sensors.

There are some interesting critiques of various abduction and 'visit' stories.  One of which is the continual shifting of the stories (where they are from) and their apparel / appearance.  Even the question that they never seem to have problems with earth's gravity, atmosphere etc.

I also found it of interest that in one account a person who was 'visited' soon after committed suicide.  Something that would be a fallen angel's objective - the damnation of a soul.

Peace be with you [Tradicat: And with thy spirit]
... objectively reviewing this information.

The reason why jumping to natural 'aliens' is lazy is that it is contradicted by the actual science of how creation works.  The space-time laws uncovered by Einstein (which continue to be validated) so faster-than-light travel is realllllly difficult for anything with Mass (actually currently they say that it isn't possible). There are only one set of creatures that we know are able to move at speeds greater than light: spirits.  But we also know that they are already here.

If we want to talk about data objectively, then we need to talk about real data - not some expert who is espousing an opinion outside of his area of expertise.

For instance looking at the recent account about the F-18s - I found it interesting that the radar operator said that the UFO had got to their next waypoint ahead of them.  ... and when they got there it wasn't there at all.  The issue is that the radar operator can't 'see' the object, he just had another blip on his screen that got their first.  He assumed that it was the same UFO - unless he tracked it going there ... which isn't in the account.

So jumping to conclusions that it is little green men (which has physical as well as historically has been highly variable) instead of going through the actual data is ... lazy. 

We need multiple accounts of the same event from multiple witnesses.
We need measurements of physical properties that are backed up by bona-fide expertise in the field.

... just for starters.

[Sojourn]

Without jumping to conclusions, my understanding is that if there are what are commonly called 'aliens', they would be another order of creatures, just as the Angels are another order of creation.  They would simply not be in the scriptures.

However, it is important to remember that we are not alone.  As noted (http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2017/12/are-we-alone.html), we are already aware of creatures that possess the ability to mess with humanity and they have been for millennia (ie fallen angels).

It would be child's play for a fallen angel to dupe even the most advanced sensors.

There are some interesting critiques of various abduction and 'visit' stories.  One of which is the continual shifting of the stories (where they are from) and their apparel / appearance.  Even the question that they never seem to have problems with earth's gravity, atmosphere etc.

I also found it of interest that in one account a person who was 'visited' soon after committed suicide.  Something that would be a fallen angel's objective - the damnation of a soul.

Peace be with you [Tradicat: And with thy spirit]
... objectively reviewing this information.

The reason why jumping to natural 'aliens' is lazy is that it is contradicted by the actual science of how creation works.  The space-time laws uncovered by Einstein (which continue to be validated) so faster-than-light travel is realllllly difficult for anything with Mass (actually currently they say that it isn't possible). There are only one set of creatures that we know are able to move at speeds greater than light: spirits.  But we also know that they are already here.

If we want to talk about data objectively, then we need to talk about real data - not some expert who is espousing an opinion outside of his area of expertise.

For instance looking at the recent account about the F-18s - I found it interesting that the radar operator said that the UFO had got to their next waypoint ahead of them.  ... and when they got there it wasn't there at all.  The issue is that the radar operator can't 'see' the object, he just had another blip on his screen that got their first.  He assumed that it was the same UFO - unless he tracked it going there ... which isn't in the account.

So jumping to conclusions that it is little green men (which has physical as well as historically has been highly variable) instead of going through the actual data is ... lazy. 

We need multiple accounts of the same event from multiple witnesses.
We need measurements of physical properties that are backed up by bona-fide expertise in the field.

... just for starters.

Peace be with you,

How these creatures get here is unknown and simply beyond us. I agree it's unlikely to be the result of faster than light travel. We are left with speculation. What is known is that the technology is not of this world.

[tradical]

Peace be with you,

How these creatures get here is unknown and simply beyond us. I agree it's unlikely to be the result of faster than light travel. We are left with speculation. What is known is that the technology is not of this world.

What technology? What creatures?  You are assuming that these events are extra-terrestrial visitations - that are not angels (good or bad).  Where's the proof? 

To simply state that 'how these creatures get here is unknown and simply beyond us' assumes that 'they' are real. 

So ... where's the proof that little green men (and women?) are visiting earth for some purpose and that they have been inconsistent in saying where they are from and shifting their appearance to match the social norms of the time???

[mikemac]

There are so many Ancient Alien episodes on the H2 channel anymore we started to call it the Ancient Alien network.  It's hardly a history channel.  You'd almost think they were trying to brainwash people about aliens.  The characters that they call "experts" that are continually on these episodes will assume something, then in the next breath treat that assumption as fact.  That's how they come to their conclusions.

[Sojourn]

Peace be with you,

How these creatures get here is unknown and simply beyond us. I agree it's unlikely to be the result of faster than light travel. We are left with speculation. What is known is that the technology is not of this world.

What technology? What creatures?  You are assuming that these events are extra-terrestrial visitations - that are not angels (good or bad).  Where's the proof? 

To simply state that 'how these creatures get here is unknown and simply beyond us' assumes that 'they' are real. 

So ... where's the proof that little green men (and women?) are visiting earth for some purpose and that they have been inconsistent in saying where they are from and shifting their appearance to match the social norms of the time???

Peace be with you,

Respectfully brother, you penned a blog post regarding your opinion of the UFO phenomenona where you described those who maintain this to be "natural" in origin sparks of "intellectual laziness." I'm hoping in researching your post you took the time to review the current data the proponents of ufology use in support of their thesis, especially since you are sharing your thoughts publicly. If though you want some data reviewed let's start with two declassified documents obtained by the FOIA. I assure you, the heads of the US government were not speaking of little green men and women, and took this phenomena very seriously.

One of the earliest obtained documents is the 1947 Twining Memo. On September 23,1947 General Nathan Twining, Head of the U.S. Air Material Command, wrote a classified letter to General George Schulgen regarding the "flying discs." Here is a part of what he said:

"As requested by AC/AS-2 there is presented below the considered opinion of this command concerning the so-called "Flying Discs." This opinion is based on interrogation report data furnished by AC/AS-2 and preliminary studies by personnel of T-2 and Aircraft Laboratory, Engineering Division T-3. This opinion was arrived at in a conference between personnel from the Air Institute of Technology, Intelligence T-2, Office, Chief of Engineering Division, and the Aircraft, Power Plant and Propeller Laboratories of Engineering Division T-3. It is the opinion that: The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious."

Twining suggests it's possible some incidents are the result of natural phenomenona such as meteors but adds:

"The reported operating characteristics such as extreme rates of climb, maneuverability (particularly in roll), and motion which must be considered evasive when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar, lend belief to the possibility that some of the objects are controlled either manually, automatically or remotely.
e. The apparent common description is as follows:-
(1) Metallic or light reflecting surface.
(2) Absence of trail, except in a few instances where the object apparently was operating under high performance conditions.
(3) Circular or elliptical in shape, flat on bottom and domed on top.
(4) Several reports of well kept formation flights varying from three to nine objects.
(5) Normally no associated sound, except in three instances a substantial rumbling roar was noted.
(6) Level flight speeds normally above 300 knots are estimated."

Twining speculates it's possible that the US might be able to construct objects of such size although it would be expensive and time consuming to construct. He also entertains that it may be foreign technology unknown to the US.

This was 1947, as the understanding of this phenomenona increased the possibility of this being foreign technology was dismantled. What did not change but was rather confirmed was the Government''s belief that this was a real phenomenona.

Five years later on December 2nd, 1952 H. Marshall Chadwell was the CIA's Director of Scientific Intelligence, wrote a classified memo to the Director of the CIA, Walter Bedell Smith regarding UFOs. By then the number of reports around military bases caused such great alarm that Chadwell urged greater study of the phenomenona. Of significance he writes the following :

"At this time, the reports of incidents convince us that there is something going on that must have immediate attention.... Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and travelling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles."

So it's easy to laugh this off as little green men but the fact is at the upper eschalons of the US Government this phenomenona was taken with great seriousness and alarm as a real physical craft of unknown origin. This position was held covertly all the while publicly denying the reality of this phenomenona.

I referencedon't two declassified documents that a serious scholar like Richard Dolan has published online at:

https://www.richarddolanpress.com/twelve-government-documents

He reviews twelve declassified documents, including the two mentioned above. He has written two volumes on this subject in very great detail. Obviously many have moved past speculating whether this phenomena is occurring. It is occurring.

As for why these are not demons, I think the answer is obvious.