Author Topic: The Novus Ordo  (Read 1406 times)

Offline Lynne

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2017, 12:12:44 PM »
There are also some priests that have traditional seminary formation (Our Lady of Guadalupe FSSP Seminary in Denton, Nebraska) that have chosen to be part of a diocese just so that area has access to the TLM.  I personally know two priests that suffer to offer the NO just so they can offer the TLM in this area.  We would not have the TLM in this area without those two good priests.  One of them told me that he cried when he learned that he would have to offer the NO.  I would call them both traditionalist priests, where as some wouldn't.

So they were trained at the FSSP seminary and they offer the Novus Ordo?
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2017, 12:15:56 PM »

I went to a Lutheran service once and it looked exactly like the NO,

One time when I was travelling on business, the local access cable channel of the hotel I was staying at broadcast the local Methodist service. I was shocked at how much it resembled a Novus Ordo. It really opened my eyes to the source and direction of the Mass changes.


except they had communion rails.

Yes, this Methodist chapel was no renaissance masterpiece, typical Methodist simplicity, but it was better than most modern N.O. churches, if for no other reason than lack of elements that were offensively ugly and sacrilegious.
 

Offline Older Salt

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2017, 12:16:32 PM »
In confession I have been told by an SSPX priest, that it is a sin to go to a NO service.
This is also echoed in the SSPX little blue book entitled "Spiritual Warfare".
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2017, 12:17:43 PM »
There are also some priests that have traditional seminary formation (Our Lady of Guadalupe FSSP Seminary in Denton, Nebraska) that have chosen to be part of a diocese just so that area has access to the TLM.  I personally know two priests that suffer to offer the NO just so they can offer the TLM in this area.  We would not have the TLM in this area without those two good priests.  One of them told me that he cried when he learned that he would have to offer the NO.  I would call them both traditionalist priests, where as some wouldn't.

So they were trained at the FSSP seminary and they offer the Novus Ordo?

That's not surprising. All FSSP priest are required to be willing to offer the N.O. on occasion. Some dioceses will not allow them in the diocese unless they agree to concelebrate on Holy Thursday.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2017, 12:17:49 PM »
There are also some priests that have traditional seminary formation (Our Lady of Guadalupe FSSP Seminary in Denton, Nebraska) that have chosen to be part of a diocese just so that area has access to the TLM.  I personally know two priests that suffer to offer the NO just so they can offer the TLM in this area.  We would not have the TLM in this area without those two good priests.  One of them told me that he cried when he learned that he would have to offer the NO.  I would call them both traditionalist priests, where as some wouldn't.

So they were trained at the FSSP seminary and they offer the Novus Ordo?

Yes.  The TLM and the NO.  To be a diocesan priest they have to obey their ordinary.  When they have been transferred to a different parish they are told to not make any changes for a certain period of time.  When that time is up both have installed high altars, kneeling rails, old style confessionals and side altars.  Both say a reverent NO Mass ad orientem with the congregation kneeling at the rail to receive the Holy Eucharist.  No Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers.  Most of our TLM community won't attend the NO Masses, but on occasion I have stayed for the NO after Adoration on Friday night.   
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 12:49:22 PM by mikemac »
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Offline Older Salt

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2017, 12:24:12 PM »
My spiritual advisor, Fr Robert Ferguson, is the dean of men and the head of the Moral Theology Dept. at the FSSP seminary in Denton, and he has informed me that they exclusively teach the TLM, which is all he has ever offered.
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2017, 12:37:43 PM »
There are also some priests that have traditional seminary formation (Our Lady of Guadalupe FSSP Seminary in Denton, Nebraska) that have chosen to be part of a diocese just so that area has access to the TLM.  I personally know two priests that suffer to offer the NO just so they can offer the TLM in this area.  We would not have the TLM in this area without those two good priests.  One of them told me that he cried when he learned that he would have to offer the NO.  I would call them both traditionalist priests, where as some wouldn't.

I don't know if we are talking about the same priests (but highly likely) but they also went in front of their congregation at a FSSP chapel and told them they are leaving trad world for the Ordinary Form and how the Extraordinary and Ordinary Form are legitimate expressions of the faith.

One of these priests was questioned why they do they old Mass and his response was "Well I like it more, but there's nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo."

Then 2-3 months later they go before the pulpit and surprise the parish with their joint statement right before they had their visiting priest from Mexico give his sermon about the need to spread the Traditional Mass. It is ironic.

After knowing these guys (again it could be 2 different priests, but most likely them) and I would not consider them traditionalist, but conciliar with an affinity towards the TLM. They believe Vatican II is kosher and so is the Novus Ordo.

It's one of the reasons I abhor the use of Extraordinary Form, it legitimizes the Novus Ordo.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2017, 12:41:12 PM »
Your words ring hollow, unless they are coming from someone with authority.  You know, like an SSPX or any Trad priest.  Maybe you could show me where an SSPX priest has said what you are saying?

Of course they ring hollow because you are apparently from the generation that believes, because you were taught, that the plain truth can be circumvented and really only matters when an authority gives plain truth their stamp of approval.

Look at what you're asking. You are asking to disregard entirely the ongoing and critical element (the NOM) of the crisis and all the sins, problems and calamities it has begotten - for what? Convenience? You should be saying the same thing I'm saying - the thing is evil stay away no matter what.   

Instead, you want to find out, from of all people, an SSPX priest, who actually received traditional formation, if going to the NOM is ok. But no matter what his answer, surely you can have no doubt that he would never say the NOM himself, yet if he did say that it is ok to go to the NOM, then he is a hypocrite for saying that. All this means is that presumably, you would accept the word of a hypocrite over the plain truth. 

I am sorry, I know it sounds like I am coming across overly acidic toward you, but that is not my intention. It only means that I am just being brief - and correspondingly blunt.
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Offline mikemac

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2017, 12:53:25 PM »
There are also some priests that have traditional seminary formation (Our Lady of Guadalupe FSSP Seminary in Denton, Nebraska) that have chosen to be part of a diocese just so that area has access to the TLM.  I personally know two priests that suffer to offer the NO just so they can offer the TLM in this area.  We would not have the TLM in this area without those two good priests.  One of them told me that he cried when he learned that he would have to offer the NO.  I would call them both traditionalist priests, where as some wouldn't.

I don't know if we are talking about the same priests (but highly likely) but they also went in front of their congregation at a FSSP chapel and told them they are leaving trad world for the Ordinary Form and how the Extraordinary and Ordinary Form are legitimate expressions of the faith.

One of these priests was questioned why they do they old Mass and his response was "Well I like it more, but there's nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo."

Then 2-3 months later they go before the pulpit and surprise the parish with their joint statement right before they had their visiting priest from Mexico give his sermon about the need to spread the Traditional Mass. It is ironic.

After knowing these guys (again it could be 2 different priests, but most likely them) and I would not consider them traditionalist, but conciliar with an affinity towards the TLM. They believe Vatican II is kosher and so is the Novus Ordo.

It's one of the reasons I abhor the use of Extraordinary Form, it legitimizes the Novus Ordo.

Nope, wrong priests.
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Offline mikemac

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2017, 01:16:07 PM »
My spiritual advisor, Fr Robert Ferguson, is the dean of men and the head of the Moral Theology Dept. at the FSSP seminary in Denton, and he has informed me that they exclusively teach the TLM, which is all he has ever offered.

Father Pilon in Campbellford "holds his seminary training from Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, and he was ordained on 29 June 2002, in Lincoln, Nebraska, by His Excellency Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz."  Not sure when Father Devereaux was ordained, but he was the first resident priest around here to offer the TLM.  They are both attending I believe it's an FSSP retreat in Manitoba shortly.  A newly ordained FSSP priest from Denton offered his first public Mass at St. Mary's in Campbellford two years ago on the Feast of Christ the King, before he flew to England to take up his new position.  There were a lot of people from all over the place there, even a Knight of Malta.  Is there a large FSSP center in Pennsylvania?  Scranton maybe?  They have been to retreats there.  In Buffalo too, but I'm not sure if that has to do with the FSSP.  I think both sometimes  preach retreats. 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2017, 01:17:41 PM »
There are also some priests that have traditional seminary formation (Our Lady of Guadalupe FSSP Seminary in Denton, Nebraska) that have chosen to be part of a diocese just so that area has access to the TLM.  I personally know two priests that suffer to offer the NO just so they can offer the TLM in this area.  We would not have the TLM in this area without those two good priests.  One of them told me that he cried when he learned that he would have to offer the NO.  I would call them both traditionalist priests, where as some wouldn't.

So they were trained at the FSSP seminary and they offer the Novus Ordo?

That's not surprising. All FSSP priest are required to be willing to offer the N.O. on occasion. Some dioceses will not allow them in the diocese unless they agree to concelebrate on Holy Thursday.

This is untrue.

If such a thing occurs, then it's an agreement made between that priest and the Diocese. I know for a fact that Fr. Jackson flat out refuses to celebrate the NO and when asked to fill in somewhere, he celebrates the TLM.

I don't know where this rumor started, but it has no validity.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2017, 04:56:25 PM »
There are also some priests that have traditional seminary formation (Our Lady of Guadalupe FSSP Seminary in Denton, Nebraska) that have chosen to be part of a diocese just so that area has access to the TLM.  I personally know two priests that suffer to offer the NO just so they can offer the TLM in this area.  We would not have the TLM in this area without those two good priests.  One of them told me that he cried when he learned that he would have to offer the NO.  I would call them both traditionalist priests, where as some wouldn't.

So they were trained at the FSSP seminary and they offer the Novus Ordo?

That's not surprising. All FSSP priest are required to be willing to offer the N.O. on occasion. Some dioceses will not allow them in the diocese unless they agree to concelebrate on Holy Thursday.

This is untrue.

If such a thing occurs, then it's an agreement made between that priest and the Diocese. I know for a fact that Fr. Jackson flat out refuses to celebrate the NO and when asked to fill in somewhere, he celebrates the TLM.

I don't know where this rumor started, but it has no validity.

http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_1999_fa_woods.html

"Simply put, in Protocol 1411/99 the Vatican has ordered that any priest, even one belonging to an institute enjoying the privilege of using the 1962 Roman Missal, may freely celebrate or concelebrate Mass using the revised Missal of 1970 with no impediment whatever, the will of their superiors notwithstanding.

But the Vatican went further, mandating that FSSP priests must say the new Mass or concelebrate under some conditions
."

https://onepeterfive.com/fssp-superior-distinguishes-fraternity-from-sspx-eschews-traditionalist-label/

Father Bernhard Gerstle – the head of the German district of the FSSP – just gave a 24 April interview to the German Bishops’ official website Katholisch.de in which he explains many of the positions and opinions of his priestly fraternity.

Father Gerstle explains, first of all, that he himself split off from the SSPX because of the “illicit episcopal consecrations” in 1988.

Additionally, Father Gerstle insists that for the FSSP, the new 1983 Code of Canon Law is the standard.

Father Gerstle also distances himself from the concept “traditionalist” when he says: “This notion I do not like at all to hear. We are not traditionalists, but simply Catholic.” As Catholics, he says, “we appreciate tradition,” but without “completely blocking organic adaptations and changes.”

Father Gerstle sees that “one cannot simply introduce everywhere again the old liturgy and, so to speak, impose it upon people.” “Both rites thus should enrich each other,” explains the priest. Certain elements of the new liturgy could be “enriching for the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite.”
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2017, 04:58:33 PM »
My spiritual advisor, Fr Robert Ferguson, is the dean of men and the head of the Moral Theology Dept. at the FSSP seminary in Denton, and he has informed me that they exclusively teach the TLM, which is all he has ever offered.

Possibly Fr. Robert Ferguson knows Fr. Devereaux seeing he was at one time the Secretary to the North American Superior of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.  Here is a small bio on Fr. Devereaux.
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/fr-joe-devereaux-0888212b

I'm not sure how long after Fr. Pilon was ordained an FSSP priest he became a Franciscan Friar.  "This was until his order dissolved and this resulted in his incardination into the diocese of Scranton, Pennsylvania, USA. Before coming to St. Mary's in 2010, he had also done some chaplaincy work in Europe in France and Ireland."  So that's the connection with Scranton that I was referring to.
http://torontotlmserving.blogspot.ca/2015/01/exciting-new-latin-mass-initiative.html

It was Fr. Ian Verrier, the newly ordained FSSP priest that said the High Mass at St. Mary's in Campbellford on the Feast of Corpus Christi.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2015/05/event-notice-corpus-christi-with-new.html#.Wd_R2zBrzIU
Quote
Friday, May 29, 2015
Event Notice: Corpus Christi With a New FSSP Priest in Campbellford, Ontario
Gregory DiPippo

On Sunday, June 7, the church of the Visitation of the Virgin Mary in Campbellford, Ontario, will welcome Fr Ian Verrier, FSSP, for a Solemn High Mass on the external solemnity of Corpus Christi. Fr Verrier will be ordained in Lincoln, Nebraska, this Saturday, May 30, and so this occasion will also serve as a thanksgiving for his ordination. Fr Jean-Pierre Pilon, the parish priest, will serve as deacon, and Fr Joseph Devereaux, chancellor of the Diocese of Peterborough, Ontario, and pastor of Assumption parish in Otonoabee, will serve as the subdeacon. The Mass will begin at 12:30 p.m, and be followed by a Eucharistic procession and Benediction; afterwards. The church is located at 21 Center St.

But I was wrong.  It wasn't Fr. Verrier's first Mass.  But yeah, probably his first public Mass out of the Seminary.

https://fssp.com/first-mass-of-fr-ian-verrier-fssp/
Quote
First Mass of Fr. Ian Verrier, FSSP

Fr. Ian Verrier, FSSP, ordained in Lincoln, Nebraska, on Saturday May 30, 2015, offered his first Mass at the Chapel of Sts. Peter and Paul at Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary in Denton, NE. Father Verrier was assisted at the altar by Fr. Matthew Goddard, FSSP, with Fr. Robert Ferguson, FSSP, assisting as Deacon and Fr. Jean-Pierre Pilon assisting as Subdeacon. Images below are from this Mass.
...

So Older Salt your spiritual advisor, Fr Robert Ferguson clearly knows our Fr. Pilon and he probably knows Fr. Devereaux too.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 05:34:07 PM by mikemac »
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Offline mikemac

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2017, 05:29:32 PM »

Father Gerstle also distances himself from the concept “traditionalist” when he says: “This notion I do not like at all to hear. We are not traditionalists, but simply Catholic.” As Catholics, he says, “we appreciate tradition,” but without “completely blocking organic adaptations and changes.”


I like this.  Thanks Maximilian.  I have actually suggested to Fr. Devereaux to not put that it is a Traditional Latin Mass in the bulletin for that time.  That way Catholics may come to the TLM figuring that it is a NO Mass and realize what they have been missing all along.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2017, 05:37:33 PM »
If such a thing occurs, then it's an agreement made between that priest and the Diocese. I know for a fact that Fr. Jackson flat out refuses to celebrate the NO and when asked to fill in somewhere, he celebrates the TLM.

Thank you Gardener, that's what I'm talking about. That is not so easy of a position for Fr. Jackson to take, but it is the only right one for a traditional Catholic priest to take. That is what every traditional Catholic priest is supposed to do, this is what they are expected to do. Fr. Jackson sets a very good example other priests, including the one mikemac was talking about should follow.

I also know of many traditional Catholic priests like Fr. Jackson, who flat out refuse to say the NOM because of the damage it has done and for what it is.   

 
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