Flat Earth

[inlaetitia]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/06/extreme-long-range-training-rockin-two-miles-at-raton/

Bryan Litz and crew shot at just over 2 miles in Raton, NM (Whittington Center -- have shot there before myself, but not at 2 miles!) and they had to adjust 1.5MOA (56" at distance) in elevation UP.

2.05 miles = ~3607 yards

Using the math, that 1.5MOA of adjustment they used = ~56"

1.5MOA at 100 yards moves the bullet 5.4" (1MOA = 3.6" at 100 yards)

Extrapolated out, 56" is not insignificant. If all other factors are in play and accounted for (wind, non-coriolis affected trajectory, gyroscopic[spin] drift, etc., but NOT coriolis), one would place a bullet aimed at a man's heart in the dirt before his feet.

The supplied video seems stuck on water and storms for the most part. In other words, things which can be manipulated without controls accounted for, and actually untestable due to uncontrollable factors. He merely claims the issue is inconsistent with bullets, however. But he fails in a few areas which we in my shooting group focus on: ballistic coefficient, trans-sonic behavioral factors, accuracy at shorter distances to extrapolate likely accuracy, and subsonic behaviors.

You can actually see how this is affected without a gun or shooting ELR. Just take a slingshot and run a smooth, heavy, perfectly round projectile. Now do the same with an acorn. The acorn flies like modernist theology (all over, and sometimes even accidentally hits the mark). The steel shot is more true, and that's because it is consistent and can be accounted for, though external factors still come into play (velocity, aiming consistency, etc.)

The video makes the claim of human error as one factor which might affect a bullet and lead to belief in coriolis or not. That would hold true if Michael J Fox were shooting. Not so when people are testing these things on barreled actions literally mounted in railroad ties filled with lead shot, with triggers that are hairpin, and mechanical firing devices (read: long range benchrest shooting) such that human error is effectively negated to zero factor. In other words, a truly scientific approach (LR shooters aren't popping RC Cola cans at the old mine like a bunch of unforking family tree yokels from Kentucky -- they're often engineers with a hobby, and thus approach it like an experiment par excellence).

The other factor the video makes no mention of, as if not aware, is the trans-sonic and subsonic behavior of bullets. At ELR, one is ALWAYS entering the TS and SS sphere (ha!) of influence. That's why they don't use jacketed bullets (too inconsistent with jacket thickness, potential voids, etc.), but use lathe-spun, solids. Those rounds are ridiculously expensive because they are more like lab equipment (and held to the same tolerance standards as one would expect of a medical or scientific instrument) than whatever Susie's Cousband Tim Bob picked up at Wally World.

This trans-sonic/sub-sonic behavior is why for short range shooting for precision, it's not unheard of for ammo to be loaded such that it begins sub-sonic. A good example of this is .22LR. When the TS/SS barrier is crossed, bullets start acting weird, and the goal is to get them consistent so those results are predictable (again, tested w/ radar).

Simply put, I don't find your video convincing because it never addressed the argument I raised, except in a glancing, ignorant blow that failed to account for the factors I have mentioned above.

There have already been videos online by actual scientists showing why the typical experiments don't work, and how to eliminate those variables to demonstrate actual angular momentum and direction:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiBrV4Q9NYE[/yt]

To argue CE is false because of the angular velocity/direction is affected by shape, is like saying a man cannot be walking straight when his direction is changed by an external force. Remove the force and he walks straight. In other words, if a man is walking straight at X force, and Y force introduces the opposite force direction, he will walk Y. That's not contested and is a strawman to argue otherwise. But remove Y, and guess what -- he walks straight. That's basic high school physics.

sources:
http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/miles-to-yards.htm
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/06/extreme-long-range-training-rockin-two-miles-at-raton/
http://tinhatranch.com/understanding-moa-and-how-to-calculate-it/

who are you talking to?

[inlaetitia]

Attached is a tree halved in Woodland Park, CO. By bullets. Idiots.

what does this have to do with anything?

[Tales]

For your video of the islands:

1) Two of the islands are ~300ft tall and the third ~900 feet tall, yet in the video the first two mountains are tiny whereas the third looks to be 5-6x taller.  On a flat earth this would not be the case.

2) The image from 500ft altitude clearly shows more of the mountains.  On a flat earth an image from the same distance but higher altitude is thus further away (hypotenuse) and thus the object should appear smaller, not larger.

3) From poking around online it seems like looming / refraction is the explanation for this phenomenon.  The islands are below the horizon but the light reflected from them is refracted through the air to be visible when it otherwise would not be.  Evidence of this is in the video at 0:14 where you can see a thin line beneath the mountains but above the water, that line is the same color as the sky above the mountains - that is the sky with the refracted image of the mountains hovering above it.

We all know refraction exists, go shine light through a prism and watch how it refracts.  We also all have seen mirage-type objects above a hot road at a distance, things that appear to levitate when they clearly do not.  This is a similar phenomenon.  It also explains why the mountains are not visible on every day (atmosphere not refracting) but I bet dollars to donuts the 3x larger Santa Cruz mountains next to them are always visible (excepting for extreme fog).

For you:  https://www.popsci.com/10-ways-you-can-prove-earth-is-round

I also note that FE'ers discount photographic evidence, claiming it is faked or that any curvature seen is from the lens or glass airplane window.  So the millions of pieces of evidence from sources all over the planet are thus regarded as trash.  Yet when some dude on the internet posts some video it is now definitive proof of a flat earth (even when the video demonstrates curvature but FE'ers do not recognize it).

What do you think Google satellite images is?  Is Google in on your massive conspiracy?  Or the company from which Google purchased it?  Or the Chinese version of it?  Or the other private satellite imagery companies?  Are all weather balloon operators in on the scam?  As well as all GPS engineers?  And all of the telecom radio dishes pointing up to satellites in orbit, are all of these people in on the big secret too?  When I set up my parent's satellite dish was I not pointing it at a satellite but instead at some fabled special point on the dome where they reflect TV signals off of?  Was the redbull challenge in on the scam too - they are a Thai company, apparently the Thai are hoaxing us too.  When long distance tunnels are dug and have to deal with the curvature of the earth, are all of those engineers and construction workers in on your hoax too?  So many people have to deal with the curvature of the earth on a daily basis, its almost as if everyone but you must be in on this hoax, we must all be doing it just to deceive you.

15 years or so ago I remember watching the space station go by with my naked eye.  It was something about its solar panels, or some extra long reflective tail it had, I do not remember as I was fairly young, but I remember seeing it from my backyard.  Was this a big NASA hoax, was it just an airplane with a banner?

https://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2002-12/international-space-station-visible-naked-eye-night-skies

That we can make absolutely pin-perfect calculations of when the tides will come, when the sun will rise and fall, when the moon will rise and fall, what phase the moon will be in, when a lunar eclipse will come, when a solar eclipse will come, exactly how much will be eclipsed, predict perfectly the path of every planet, predict the path of the stars, and many comets and asteroids... is this all a titanic hoax?  Are the hundreds if not thousands of private observatories stationed across the planet operated by nearly every country, including the Vatican, in on covering up your "there is no gravity, we live on a flat earth" reality?

This whole FE cult is extremely disturbing and disheartening.

Edit:

I want to add that I do not want to be harsh, but I truly am quite annoyed by this FE nonsense.  This makes Christians look like morons, and we already have a hard enough time evangelizing to the modern world without self inflicted wounds of Christians going around claiming we live on a flat earth.  If you are being duped by something so obviously wrong, then why should anyone believe you when you say Jesus Christ rose from the dead?  You're killing your own credibility by endorsing what is so obviously false - who is going to value your opinion on things that truly matter once they hear you talking about the massive globe earth hoax?

[inlaetitia]

For your video of the islands:

1) Two of the islands are ~300ft tall and the third ~900 feet tall, yet in the video the first two mountains are tiny whereas the third looks to be 5-6x taller.  On a flat earth this would not be the case.

2) The image from 500ft altitude clearly shows more of the mountains.  On a flat earth an image from the same distance but higher altitude is thus further away (hypotenuse) and thus the object should appear smaller, not larger.

3) From poking around online it seems like looming / refraction is the explanation for this phenomenon.  The islands are below the horizon but the light reflected from them is refracted through the air to be visible when it otherwise would not be.  Evidence of this is in the video at 0:14 where you can see a thin line beneath the mountains but above the water, that line is the same color as the sky above the mountains - that is the sky with the refracted image of the mountains hovering above it.

We all know refraction exists, go shine light through a prism and watch how it refracts.  We also all have seen mirage-type objects above a hot road at a distance, things that appear to levitate when they clearly do not.  This is a similar phenomenon.  It also explains why the mountains are not visible on every day (atmosphere not refracting) but I bet dollars to donuts the 3x larger Santa Cruz mountains next to them are always visible (excepting for extreme fog).

For you:  https://www.popsci.com/10-ways-you-can-prove-earth-is-round

I also note that FE'ers discount photographic evidence, claiming it is faked or that any curvature seen is from the lens or glass airplane window.  So the millions of pieces of evidence from sources all over the planet are thus regarded as trash.  Yet when some dude on the internet posts some video it is now definitive proof of a flat earth (even when the video demonstrates curvature but FE'ers do not recognize it).

What do you think Google satellite images is?  Is Google in on your massive conspiracy?  Or the company from which Google purchased it?  Or the Chinese version of it?  Or the other private satellite imagery companies?  Are all weather balloon operators in on the scam?  As well as all GPS engineers?  And all of the telecom radio dishes pointing up to satellites in orbit, are all of these people in on the big secret too?  When I set up my parent's satellite dish was I not pointing it at a satellite but instead at some fabled special point on the dome where they reflect TV signals off of?  Was the redbull challenge in on the scam too - they are a Thai company, apparently the Thai are hoaxing us too.  When long distance tunnels are dug and have to deal with the curvature of the earth, are all of those engineers and construction workers in on your hoax too?  So many people have to deal with the curvature of the earth on a daily basis, its almost as if everyone but you must be in on this hoax, we must all be doing it just to deceive you.

15 years or so ago I remember watching the space station go by with my naked eye.  It was something about its solar panels, or some extra long reflective tail it had, I do not remember as I was fairly young, but I remember seeing it from my backyard.  Was this a big NASA hoax, was it just an airplane with a banner?

https://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2002-12/international-space-station-visible-naked-eye-night-skies

That we can make absolutely pin-perfect calculations of when the tides will come, when the sun will rise and fall, when the moon will rise and fall, what phase the moon will be in, when a lunar eclipse will come, when a solar eclipse will come, exactly how much will be eclipsed, predict perfectly the path of every planet, predict the path of the stars, and many comets and asteroids... is this all a titanic hoax?  Are the hundreds if not thousands of private observatories stationed across the planet operated by nearly every country, including the Vatican, in on covering up your "there is no gravity, we live on a flat earth" reality?

This whole FE cult is extremely disturbing and disheartening.

Edit:

I want to add that I do not want to be harsh, but I truly am quite annoyed by this FE nonsense.  This makes Christians look like morons, and we already have a hard enough time evangelizing to the modern world without self inflicted wounds of Christians going around claiming we live on a flat earth.  If you are being duped by something so obviously wrong, then why should anyone believe you when you say Jesus Christ rose from the dead?  You're killing your own credibility by endorsing what is so obviously false - who is going to value your opinion on things that truly matter once they hear you talking about the massive globe earth hoax?

I'm sad that you're sad, but you shouldn't have anything to fear from the truth.

Refraction cannot possibly explain what you are seeing here.  If it exists then it would be under very peculiar circumstances, the image would not be as steady and constant as what you see here.

To see what mirages look like here is an excellent video




and here is what it looks like for a boat to disappear, which explains your line objection




"Satellite" imagery is nothing but high flying air and "weather" baloons, as well as high flying aircraft. But they not in "space" because there is no such thing.

People don't have to be "in on the conspiracy". They just parrot what they have been thought. It is only now that people are questioning it. So don't exaggerate the difficulty in getting people to believe lies. I'd say most Freemasons don't know the earth is flat to be honest. Only the higher grades, if even.

As for the space station, it is possible this is a hologram. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter to much how they do it, interesting as it is to know, but what matters is that people understand there is not curvature.

There is a lot of intrinsic evidence to the falsity of NASA's photographic "evidence" which would never stand up in court, but people just accept it because it is NASA. The best example is the two completely different pictures of the globe with the US taking up a massively larger proportion of the globe,even accounting for the slightly different angle it is taken at. But it's NASA, they can't be wrong right?

All the predictions you account for are based on observations of nature over the years. They have nothing to do with whether the earth is flat or round. This is why the ancients were able to make similar predictions.

Your credibility point is based on human respect.

Hope that this answers everything. Try to have a more open mind. We live in a world controlled by psychopathic liars.


Here is another example of objects we should not see

[red solo cup]

https://www.westernjournal.com/true-believers-hold-first-flat-earth-conference-north-carolina/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=westernjournalism&utm_content=2018-01-19&utm_campaign=manualpost

[james03]

You can not have timezones with a flat earth.  Fatal flaw.

Explanation I have seen is the sun acting like a flash light beam.  Are they claiming their is a shroud and lens around the sun?

[St. Columba]

Here is a simple argument as to why I don't believe in a flat earth.  This is what I came up with, anyways...

If the sun is circling above the earth, it is doing so with (roughly) 24 hour cycles.  However, in the winter months (from a northern hemisphere perspective) the sun must be moving significantly faster to maintain the 24 hours cycle than in the summer.  I have not studied this stuff in any depth, but I would surmise that the sun would have to be travelling about 3 to 4 times faster in mid winter than in mid summer.

But here is the kicker: throughout the whole year, the sun must speed up every minute of every day, and then slow down later in the year every minute of every day precisely so as to maintain a 24 hour night-day cycle each and every day throughout the entire earth!  There is no credible, natural explanation for this under the flat earth model....whereas a turning globe very naturally accounts for the 24hr cycles each day of the year.

[St. Columba]

In case it was not clear, the sun must be moving faster in the winter because the circumference of the sun's route is so much larger in the winter than in the summer under the flat earth model (yet the cycles perennially be 24 hours)

[inlaetitia]

You can not have timezones with a flat earth.  Fatal flaw.

Explanation I have seen is the sun acting like a flash light beam.  Are they claiming their is a shroud and lens around the sun?

No the sun is simply much smaller than millions of miles across.

[inlaetitia]

Here is a simple argument as to why I don't believe in a flat earth.  This is what I came up with, anyways...

If the sun is circling above the earth, it is doing so with (roughly) 24 hour cycles.  However, in the winter months (from a northern hemisphere perspective) the sun must be moving significantly faster to maintain the 24 hours cycle than in the summer.  I have not studied this stuff in any depth, but I would surmise that the sun would have to be travelling about 3 to 4 times faster in mid winter than in mid summer.

But here is the kicker: throughout the whole year, the sun must speed up every minute of every day, and then slow down later in the year every minute of every day precisely so as to maintain a 24 hour night-day cycle each and every day throughout the entire earth!  There is no credible, natural explanation for this under the flat earth model....whereas a turning globe very naturally accounts for the 24hr cycles each day of the year.

The operations of the sun are just theories. Different flat earthers have different ones.

Speeding up and slowing down is the most reasonable one. Why would this seem so difficult to accept for you? Considering that above it is a dome and above that heaven?

In any case, you need to look at this question from a different perspective. It is those who believe that the earth is a globe against the evidence, that have to prove themselves. Not us. Because the horizon is flat from where I see it. And anyone who claims to have seen the curve is talking through their hat, because official science says you can only see it from 40000 feet anyway.

The problem is that NASA has locked themselves into a model that they can't get out of. They can't claim that it is a bigger globe in reaction to the videos I posted above, because they have already faked images of the earth from space showing it to be of fixed proportions. The only way out of this is to accept the reality of the situation, that the earth is flat as people have always known it to be for thousands of years.

[GloriaPatri]

Here is a simple argument as to why I don't believe in a flat earth.  This is what I came up with, anyways...

If the sun is circling above the earth, it is doing so with (roughly) 24 hour cycles.  However, in the winter months (from a northern hemisphere perspective) the sun must be moving significantly faster to maintain the 24 hours cycle than in the summer.  I have not studied this stuff in any depth, but I would surmise that the sun would have to be travelling about 3 to 4 times faster in mid winter than in mid summer.

But here is the kicker: throughout the whole year, the sun must speed up every minute of every day, and then slow down later in the year every minute of every day precisely so as to maintain a 24 hour night-day cycle each and every day throughout the entire earth!  There is no credible, natural explanation for this under the flat earth model....whereas a turning globe very naturally accounts for the 24hr cycles each day of the year.

The operations of the sun are just theories. Different flat earthers have different ones.

Speeding up and slowing down is the most reasonable one. Why would this seem so difficult to accept for you? Considering that above it is a dome and above that heaven?

In any case, you need to look at this question from a different perspective. It is those who believe that the earth is a globe against the evidence, that have to prove themselves. Not us. Because the horizon is flat from where I see it. And anyone who claims to have seen the curve is talking through their hat, because official science says you can only see it from 40000 feet anyway.

The problem is that NASA has locked themselves into a model that they can't get out of. They can't claim that it is a bigger globe in reaction to the videos I posted above, because they have already faked images of the earth from space showing it to be of fixed proportions. The only way out of this is to accept the reality of the situation, that the earth is flat as people have always known it to be for thousands of years.

You really are an idiot. Of course the horizon is going to seem flat to you. You are a tiny, insignificant ant in comparison to the globe.

And again, if the earth truly was flat I would be able to see straight across the Atlantic to Europe. But that's not possible. Because the Earth is a globe.

[St. Columba]

Here is a simple argument as to why I don't believe in a flat earth.  This is what I came up with, anyways...

If the sun is circling above the earth, it is doing so with (roughly) 24 hour cycles.  However, in the winter months (from a northern hemisphere perspective) the sun must be moving significantly faster to maintain the 24 hours cycle than in the summer.  I have not studied this stuff in any depth, but I would surmise that the sun would have to be travelling about 3 to 4 times faster in mid winter than in mid summer.

But here is the kicker: throughout the whole year, the sun must speed up every minute of every day, and then slow down later in the year every minute of every day precisely so as to maintain a 24 hour night-day cycle each and every day throughout the entire earth!  There is no credible, natural explanation for this under the flat earth model....whereas a turning globe very naturally accounts for the 24hr cycles each day of the year.

Speeding up and slowing down is the most reasonable one. Why would this seem so difficult to accept for you? Considering that above it is a dome and above that heaven?

Because, for the sun to have to act in such a manner for the flat earth model to hold is ad hoc and arbitrary in the extreme.

Your response, inlaetita, suggests that you did not really understand my argument.  So, let me ask a question first:  do you agree that the sun circles above the flat earth in larger circles (ie circumference) during northern hemisphere winter than summer?

[coffeeandcigarette]

[/quote Davis Blank]I want to add that I do not want to be harsh, but I truly am quite annoyed by this FE nonsense.  This makes Christians look like morons, and we already have a hard enough time evangelizing to the modern world without self inflicted wounds of Christians going around claiming we live on a flat earth.  If you are being duped by something so obviously wrong, then why should anyone believe you when you say Jesus Christ rose from the dead?  You're killing your own credibility by endorsing what is so obviously false - who is going to value your opinion on things that truly matter once they hear you talking about the massive globe earth hoax?
[/quote]

EXACTLY!!!!

[Daniel]

To the non Flat Earthers,

Hypothetically speaking, suppose Aristotle is wrong. Suppose our physical senses are not guaranteed to provide us with an accurate knowledge of the physical world. Is there, then, any way to definitively disprove the Flat Earth theory? (Appeal to the empirical sciences would no longer be an option, since all our empirical knowledge would be unreliable...)

(Playing devil's advocate here... I do not believe that Aristotle was wrong.)

I haven't put much thought into this (because I think it's absurd), but there is probably some way to get the Flat Earth theory to work geometrically, if we ignore all the premises which are derived from observation (i.e. if we assume that light travels does not necessarily travel in a straight line, that the sun does not necessarily retain a constant speed and size as it moves further away from the north pole, etc.)

Everything we see and observe would be globe earth (which is why our science seems to work), but the unobserved reality would be Flat Earth. Just like the brain in a vat scenario.

[coffeeandcigarette]

Here is a simple argument as to why I don't believe in a flat earth.  This is what I came up with, anyways...

If the sun is circling above the earth, it is doing so with (roughly) 24 hour cycles.  However, in the winter months (from a northern hemisphere perspective) the sun must be moving significantly faster to maintain the 24 hours cycle than in the summer.  I have not studied this stuff in any depth, but I would surmise that the sun would have to be travelling about 3 to 4 times faster in mid winter than in mid summer.

But here is the kicker: throughout the whole year, the sun must speed up every minute of every day, and then slow down later in the year every minute of every day precisely so as to maintain a 24 hour night-day cycle each and every day throughout the entire earth!  There is no credible, natural explanation for this under the flat earth model....whereas a turning globe very naturally accounts for the 24hr cycles each day of the year.

The operations of the sun are just theories. Different flat earthers have different ones.

Speeding up and slowing down is the most reasonable one. Why would this seem so difficult to accept for you? Considering that above it is a dome and above that heaven?

In any case, you need to look at this question from a different perspective. It is those who believe that the earth is a globe against the evidence, that have to prove themselves. Not us. Because the horizon is flat from where I see it. And anyone who claims to have seen the curve is talking through their hat, because official science says you can only see it from 40000 feet anyway.

The problem is that NASA has locked themselves into a model that they can't get out of. They can't claim that it is a bigger globe in reaction to the videos I posted above, because they have already faked images of the earth from space showing it to be of fixed proportions. The only way out of this is to accept the reality of the situation, that the earth is flat as people have always known it to be for thousands of years.

  Let me ask you two questions with total sincerity. Why bother believing this? I understand the fight against evolution. One would be defending the Faith and the dogmatic creation narrative. There is a moral impetus there. Also, when people try to push for Evolution, the motive is very often/almost always an attempt to undermine God and present man as a cosmic accident. The whole spherical Earth thing though has no deviant moral undertone. If the earth is flat or round what difference does it make to our Faith? The answer is none so why do you care? When you are accusing anyone of a giant conspiracy you should establish motive. What would the motive be for 99% of the world from builders, scientists, engineers, pilots, astronauts, skydivers, etc to deceive you, me, and everyone else?  You mentioned the Free Masons, why would they care about this? I understand how creating a population of idiots who believe anything you say would serve some purposes, but why this? Why is a flat Earth such a powerful truth that they must suppress it with every tool at their disposal? In this same vein, I understand various conspiracy theories like the moon landing. We were racing against Russia to get there first and there was a fight for honor and scientific advancement. Pretend we didn't actually land on the moon. They would have a reason for lying so that at least, gives us a starting point for believing that there might have been deceit in some measure.

Second question. If you do not believe something so basic (according to all education/scientific authorities) how do you believe anything? Why do you believe in any system or theory presented by this same body of thinkers? How can you trust any text book on any subject? When you discard as rubbish and lies, something like the spherical earth, how can you trust chemistry, physics, biology, anthropology, history, archeology, etc? I can't understand how you would hypothetically educate your children. You would expect them to trust in these same authorities for almost all their information about the world and then at the end of the day they are suppose to assume that they are total liars when they talk about the earth and the solar system. You said you buy standard science text books but how on earth would that work?