Suscipe Domine Traditional Catholic Forum

Had to throw in the last option just for fun...

Anyways, I know a couple westerners who are Trad and have moved to Russia because they were fed up with the woke, LGBT nonsense in their home countries (American + European).

I don't blame them at all, in fact I quite admire them as they've both made it work well and are thriving.

However, being here, the sacramental life is far from ideal and it's basically "bare minimum". For me personally, I don't know if I could make the move on that alone. I'd rather live in rural, secular France where SSPX, ICKSP and FSSP parishes are all within a 1 hour drive and offer daily Mass, rather than live in Moscow and have a weekly Mass in a damp basement in the middle of nowhere.

I know everyone is different and every family dynamic is different, so I'm curious as to which option people here would chose given the opportunity.

Moving to Russia, Hungary, or any other supposedly nnnnnnnnnBased country in my opinion would often do more harm than good.

It's going from stage 4 cancer to stage 1 or 2.

Answered "other" since I wouldn't say Russia, Philippines, Nigeria, etc are "non woke." Just less infected.

I voted for the first.

Frodo: 'I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.'

Gandalf: 'So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought."

"Grow where you are planted" is my usual take on things.

God placed me in a certain location for a certain reason.  I'm not going to travel the world to find the Goldilocks place for me. 

Also, I agree with @clau clau's post with regards to the LOTR quote. 

Quote from: Kaesekopf on April 25, 2024, 01:10:06 PM"Grow where you are planted" is my usual take on things.

God placed me in a certain location for a certain reason.  I'm not going to travel the world to find the Goldilocks place for me. 

Also, I agree with @clau clau's post with regards to the LOTR quote. 

Basically what I would say.  I don't like the state I live in, but it's where I am and it's where my family is. There aren't a whole lot of places to run these days even if I were inclined to do so.

Moving doesn't solve your problems. It solves one and creates others. 

Been there, done that.

I picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich. Laus, I(and many others) are eagerly awaiting your anecdotes, assessments, and compare/contrasts of your trip. Also, curiously, what are the nationalities of the Society priests serving the mission there? Spasseeva.

I moved to Saint Mary's precisely because of the availability of the Sacraments. I would not live in a place where I could not assist at Mass and go to Confession at least once a month. And if I did live in such a place, I would be doing all that I could to get the heck out of there.
There is a second thing; I'm an old man,and (by the grace of God) I am going to die a Catholic; but if I was a young married man with children, I would be asking myself: "What is going to happen to my children when they grow up? Without the chance to regularly receive the sacraments, what kind of Catholics will they become? If they want to get married, where will they find a practicing trad Catholic spouse? Surrounded by non-Catholics, chances are they will probably end up in a mixed marriage, with a great peril to their faith, and also that of their children. Secondly what about my children with a religious vocation? Where would they go?
Thirdly, I voted the third option! :laugh:

Option 2.  Non-woke society but limited access.  This woke secular culture is claiming far too many, even amongst traditional Catholics.

I voted for the third option. So far, my kids, their spouses attend my wife's very conservative (almost trad) novus ordo parish. Grandkids are in the parochial school of a somewhat liberal parish nearby. I attend either Byzantine Catholic or the local diocesan TLM (which has a limited time before Rome decides not to renew our extension, at which time I will attend a local SSPX parish).
What terrifies me (and I pray about it daily) is what the future will hold in store for my grandchildren. My kids are solidly conservative but my daughter's in-laws are quite Leftist and the mother-in-law often pushes that agenda in earshot of the grandkids. I usually keep my mouth shut except when I deem it necessary to protect my grandkids' developing world view.

As my wife and son know, my opinion is that America and the West are under God's judgment for obvious reasons.  At my wife's and my age, I don't see us moving.

 I think overall my access to the sacraments will be relatively good. However, I don't rule out my kids and grandkids having to make some very difficult choices eventually relative to keeping their Catholic faith and getting higher education, decent jobs and healthcare. Hope I am wrong.   

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich. Laus, I(and many others) are eagerly awaiting your anecdotes, assessments, and compare/contrasts of your trip. Also, curiously, what are the nationalities of the Society priests serving the mission there? Spasseeva.

Sure thing - what exactly would you like to know?

The one priest is Russian [speaks English] and the other one, I believe, is Ukrainian (I think he's from SSJK but I'm not 100% sure- doesn't speak English)

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 25, 2024, 05:09:01 PMI moved to Saint Mary's precisely because of the availability of the Sacraments. I would not live in a place where I could not assist at Mass and go to Confession at least once a month. And if I did live in such a place, I would be doing all that I could to get the heck out of there.
There is a second thing; I'm an old man,and (by the grace of God) I am going to die a Catholic; but if I was a young married man with children, I would be asking myself: "What is going to happen to my children when they grow up? Without the chance to regularly receive the sacraments, what kind of Catholics will they become? If they want to get married, where will they find a practicing trad Catholic spouse? Surrounded by non-Catholics, chances are they will probably end up in a mixed marriage, with a great peril to their faith, and also that of their children. Secondly what about my children with a religious vocation? Where would they go?
Thirdly, I voted the third option! :laugh:

I almost wonder if it would be sinful putting my kids into a society that is so heavily Orthodox (and by extension anti-Catholic). The ease to which they could switch to Orthodoxy would be huge, and that would be on me.

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on April 26, 2024, 01:31:27 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 25, 2024, 05:09:01 PMI moved to Saint Mary's precisely because of the availability of the Sacraments. I would not live in a place where I could not assist at Mass and go to Confession at least once a month. And if I did live in such a place, I would be doing all that I could to get the heck out of there.
There is a second thing; I'm an old man,and (by the grace of God) I am going to die a Catholic; but if I was a young married man with children, I would be asking myself: "What is going to happen to my children when they grow up? Without the chance to regularly receive the sacraments, what kind of Catholics will they become? If they want to get married, where will they find a practicing trad Catholic spouse? Surrounded by non-Catholics, chances are they will probably end up in a mixed marriage, with a great peril to their faith, and also that of their children. Secondly what about my children with a religious vocation? Where would they go?
Thirdly, I voted the third option! :laugh:

I almost wonder if it would be sinful putting my kids into a society that is so heavily Orthodox (and by extension anti-Catholic). The ease to which they could switch to Orthodoxy would be huge, and that would be on me.

After moving to a Catholic country, I've seen more how much my mind was warped and poisoned by the Protestantism in America. Even though this country would look quite corrupted at first glance, when you're on the inside you see that there is a totally different mindset that is fundamentally influenced by Catholicism.

One area this has been such a blessing in has been marriage and raising children.

In America (which I deeply love and which has many other good qualities) there is a pervasive atmosphere of antagonism between men and women.

The MGTOW and most of the trad-wife movement is just taking a different side in what is fundamentally a bitter and hateful fight.

There is a pervasive fear that your marriage could irreparably break down and there's nothing you or God can do about it.
 

There's a pervasive fear that your children could grow up to hate you and abandon the Faith no matter your best efforts or intentions.

I recently mentioned this to a random driver asking about moving to America
and he agreed and said he did actually notice the same thing when he was living in England and it's true that it's not the case here.

Here, at least in this part, there's usually an underlying love and trust between men and women, even during the most difficult moments, just like Catholicism teaches there should be.

There's an assumption that your marriage will be very happy and last a lifetime, just like God promised you on your Catholic wedding day that it can and should be.

There's an assumption that children will at least always love their mother for life, and usually their father. And while they may lose the Faith, it's often because there were not the best efforts or intentions somewhere along the line, but this love can be a powerful force helping them not go very far and in eventually coming back.

And it's so amazing to think that I could have been living this way my whole life if I had actually been really listening to what the Catholic Church was saying all along like I should have. 

Quote from: queen.saints on April 26, 2024, 04:47:07 AM

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on April 26, 2024, 01:31:27 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 25, 2024, 05:09:01 PMI moved to Saint Mary's precisely because of the availability of the Sacraments. I would not live in a place where I could not assist at Mass and go to Confession at least once a month. And if I did live in such a place, I would be doing all that I could to get the heck out of there.
There is a second thing; I'm an old man,and (by the grace of God) I am going to die a Catholic; but if I was a young married man with children, I would be asking myself: "What is going to happen to my children when they grow up? Without the chance to regularly receive the sacraments, what kind of Catholics will they become? If they want to get married, where will they find a practicing trad Catholic spouse? Surrounded by non-Catholics, chances are they will probably end up in a mixed marriage, with a great peril to their faith, and also that of their children. Secondly what about my children with a religious vocation? Where would they go?
Thirdly, I voted the third option! :laugh:

I almost wonder if it would be sinful putting my kids into a society that is so heavily Orthodox (and by extension anti-Catholic). The ease to which they could switch to Orthodoxy would be huge, and that would be on me.

After moving to a Catholic country, I've seen more how much my mind was warped and poisoned by the Protestantism in America. Even though this country would look quite corrupted at first glance, when you're on the inside you see that there is a totally different mindset that is fundamentally influenced by Catholicism.

One area this has been such a blessing in has been marriage and raising children.

In America (which I deeply love and which has many other good qualities) there is a pervasive atmosphere of antagonism between men and women.

The MGTOW and most of the trad-wife movement is just taking a different side in what is fundamentally a bitter and hateful fight.

There is a pervasive fear that your marriage could irreparably break down and there's nothing you or God can do about it.
 

There's a pervasive fear that your children could grow up to hate you and abandon the Faith no matter your best efforts or intentions.

I recently mentioned this to a random driver asking about moving to America
and he agreed and said he did actually notice the same thing when he was living in England and it's true that it's not the case here.

Here, at least in this part, there's usually an underlying love and trust between men and women, even during the most difficult moments, just like Catholicism teaches there should be.

There's an assumption that your marriage will be happy and last a lifetime, just like God promised you on your Catholic wedding day that it can and should.

There's an assumption that children will at least always love their mother for life, and usually their father. And while they may lose the Faith, it's often because there were not the best efforts or intentions somewhere along the line, but this love can be a powerful force helping them not go very far and in eventually coming back.

And it's so amazing to think that I could have been living this way my whole life if I had actually been really listening to what the Catholic Church was saying all along like I should have. 

Agreed.

And even if some of those post-Catholic countries are now dumps, they're still FULL of Catholicism EVERYWHERE. I'm talking shrines on the road side, icons of Mary on the buildings, stores closed on Sundays, Churches everywhere etc.

Depends on your personality I guess, but for me that stuff is extremely beneficial.

Wow, yeah, excellent point as well.

You can pick up some miraculous water on your way home from the grocery store or stop and pray at a place where there's real martyrs' blood spilled on your family walk.

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on April 26, 2024, 01:31:27 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 25, 2024, 05:09:01 PMI moved to Saint Mary's precisely because of the availability of the Sacraments. I would not live in a place where I could not assist at Mass and go to Confession at least once a month. And if I did live in such a place, I would be doing all that I could to get the heck out of there.
There is a second thing; I'm an old man,and (by the grace of God) I am going to die a Catholic; but if I was a young married man with children, I would be asking myself: "What is going to happen to my children when they grow up? Without the chance to regularly receive the sacraments, what kind of Catholics will they become? If they want to get married, where will they find a practicing trad Catholic spouse? Surrounded by non-Catholics, chances are they will probably end up in a mixed marriage, with a great peril to their faith, and also that of their children. Secondly what about my children with a religious vocation? Where would they go?
Thirdly, I voted the third option! :laugh:

I almost wonder if it would be sinful putting my kids into a society that is so heavily Orthodox (and by extension anti-Catholic). The ease to which they could switch to Orthodoxy would be huge, and that would be on me.

Hey LTC,
I never thought I would say it but for several years now I've been envious of people who live in Russia. And also Hungary (Catholic but I hear Mass attendance is low there). I'm probably naive, however if it came down to raising my kids again and I had to choose between Russia and America's current culture, I think I know which one I'd pick.

Although speaking of naivete, I still secretly long for the Catholic Church to return to its pre-Vatican II orthodoxy and there to be a reunion of it and the Orthodox Church. Of course, in the real world I cannot ever see the Orthodox agreeing amongst themselves, let alone returning to unity with Rome. Heck, Constantinople and Moscow are now not even in communion with one another. 

Oh well, if I'm going to dream, I might as well dream big.  8)

 

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on April 26, 2024, 01:27:57 AM

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich. Laus, I(and many others) are eagerly awaiting your anecdotes, assessments, and compare/contrasts of your trip. Also, curiously, what are the nationalities of the Society priests serving the mission there? Spasseeva.

Sure thing - what exactly would you like to know?

The one priest is Russian [speaks English] and the other one, I believe, is Ukrainian (I think he's from SSJK but I'm not 100% sure- doesn't speak English)

Standard of living compared to US/Canada: infrastructure(roads, bridges), cost of living, crime, cleanliness, friendliness, etc.

Quote from: Heinrich on April 26, 2024, 10:19:31 AM

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on April 26, 2024, 01:27:57 AM

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich. Laus, I(and many others) are eagerly awaiting your anecdotes, assessments, and compare/contrasts of your trip. Also, curiously, what are the nationalities of the Society priests serving the mission there? Spasseeva.

Sure thing - what exactly would you like to know?

The one priest is Russian [speaks English] and the other one, I believe, is Ukrainian (I think he's from SSJK but I'm not 100% sure- doesn't speak English)

Standard of living compared to US/Canada: infrastructure(roads, bridges), cost of living, crime, cleanliness, friendliness, etc.

I haven't spent too much time on the roads, but they seem fine. There is a TON of construction going on for new highways, massive apartment complexes etc. In Moscow the public transport is phenomenal and cheap and they're always building (they built 70km of new metro since I was last here 2.5 years ago).

Cost of living relative to their salaries is fine, not great. If you can swing a remote job and get paid in $ you'd be living large.

Crime is very low in Moscow - no one is dumb enough to mess with Moscow police.

City is kind of dirty but actual dirt...not trash. At least in the suburbs where I am, but it's due mainly to the mud drying up and the construction nearby I guess. Otherwise the city, especially in the center, is very tidy.

Russians are incredibly hospitable and kind - case in point, I was out with an American and a Frenchman two days ago and we had multiple people come up to our table and say hi, welcome to Russia etc. But if you walk around and smile and say kak dela to strangers (as Canadians do) they'll think you're certifiably insane. Russians are cold on the outside and warm on the inside.

Groceries here are plentiful and you can still find a lot of Western products despite the sanctions (I had a Budweiser today). It's definitely more Russian-centric (my Italian-food tastebuds aren't having the best time out here but there are worse things I guess). Speaking of food, there's a steakhouse chain call The Bull and most of their menu is 350rub ($3.81USD)...so you can get a chicken caesar salad and a 6oz New York for less than 8 bucks and it is GOOD....one of the many signs that life is good here.

Overall country is thriving and you wouldn't even know there's a war going on. Russians are perfectly happy staying here and living their life in Russia - sanctions mean nothing to most of them.

Anything other questions, fire away, I'd be happy to answer what I can.

Quote from: EastWest7 on April 26, 2024, 10:00:25 AMHey LTC,
I never thought I would say it but for several years now I've been envious of people who live in Russia. And also Hungary (Catholic but I hear Mass attendance is low there). I'm probably naive, however if it came down to raising my kids again and I had to choose between Russia and America's current culture, I think I know which one I'd pick.

Although speaking of naivete, I still secretly long for the Catholic Church to return to its pre-Vatican II orthodoxy and there to be a reunion of it and the Orthodox Church. Of course, in the real world I cannot ever see the Orthodox agreeing amongst themselves, let alone returning to unity with Rome. Heck, Constantinople and Moscow are now not even in communion with one another. 

Oh well, if I'm going to dream, I might as well dream big.  8)

 

There's definitely a lot to be envious of. I don't think I'll end up moving here, but even if we don't we'll still spend a significant amount of time here.

If the Catholic & Orthos ever united and I could freely commune at the Churches here, then I would 110% move.

Quote from: queen.saints on April 26, 2024, 04:47:07 AM

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on April 26, 2024, 01:31:27 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 25, 2024, 05:09:01 PMI moved to Saint Mary's precisely because of the availability of the Sacraments. I would not live in a place where I could not assist at Mass and go to Confession at least once a month. And if I did live in such a place, I would be doing all that I could to get the heck out of there.
There is a second thing; I'm an old man,and (by the grace of God) I am going to die a Catholic; but if I was a young married man with children, I would be asking myself: "What is going to happen to my children when they grow up? Without the chance to regularly receive the sacraments, what kind of Catholics will they become? If they want to get married, where will they find a practicing trad Catholic spouse? Surrounded by non-Catholics, chances are they will probably end up in a mixed marriage, with a great peril to their faith, and also that of their children. Secondly what about my children with a religious vocation? Where would they go?
Thirdly, I voted the third option! :laugh:

I almost wonder if it would be sinful putting my kids into a society that is so heavily Orthodox (and by extension anti-Catholic). The ease to which they could switch to Orthodoxy would be huge, and that would be on me.

After moving to a Catholic country, I've seen more how much my mind was warped and poisoned by the Protestantism in America. Even though this country would look quite corrupted at first glance, when you're on the inside you see that there is a totally different mindset that is fundamentally influenced by Catholicism.

One area this has been such a blessing in has been marriage and raising children.

In America (which I deeply love and which has many other good qualities) there is a pervasive atmosphere of antagonism between men and women.

The MGTOW and most of the trad-wife movement is just taking a different side in what is fundamentally a bitter and hateful fight.

There is a pervasive fear that your marriage could irreparably break down and there's nothing you or God can do about it.
 

There's a pervasive fear that your children could grow up to hate you and abandon the Faith no matter your best efforts or intentions.

I recently mentioned this to a random driver asking about moving to America
and he agreed and said he did actually notice the same thing when he was living in England and it's true that it's not the case here.

Here, at least in this part, there's usually an underlying love and trust between men and women, even during the most difficult moments, just like Catholicism teaches there should be.

There's an assumption that your marriage will be very happy and last a lifetime, just like God promised you on your Catholic wedding day that it can and should be.

There's an assumption that children will at least always love their mother for life, and usually their father. And while they may lose the Faith, it's often because there were not the best efforts or intentions somewhere along the line, but this love can be a powerful force helping them not go very far and in eventually coming back.

And it's so amazing to think that I could have been living this way my whole life if I had actually been really listening to what the Catholic Church was saying all along like I should have. 

I've lived in Mexico, and in the Philippines. Both have been ravaged by secularism, V2, etc.

However, I completely understand what you mean when you say "Catholic country."

There is still vestiges of it in the Philippines.

Until 2012, contraception was illegal. Divorce and abortion still are, only He knows for how much longer.

When I would be in the supermarket, mall, etc, at 3:00 PM, they'd announce over the intercom the 3 O'clock prayer. Or the Angelus.

I figured everyone would continue to go about their business.

Nope.

The checkers stopped scanning, the lines froze, for the duration of the prayer.

Same thing on all radio stations.

One would see little street shrines, and people kneeling in front of them praying.

All of the churches are packed.

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich.

Care to elaborate about why you'd pick that time specifically?

Quote from: Bernadette on April 26, 2024, 01:23:07 PM

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich.

Care to elaborate about why you'd pick that time specifically?

Because it was based af?

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on April 26, 2024, 01:30:34 PM

Quote from: Bernadette on April 26, 2024, 01:23:07 PM

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich.

Care to elaborate about why you'd pick that time specifically?

Because it was based af?

What?

Quote from: Bernadette on April 26, 2024, 01:23:07 PM

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich.

Care to elaborate about why you'd pick that time specifically?

https://youtu.be/3HUWUtTZvK4?si=H1IMwitc6nCdA27e

Given I already live in a woke society with limited access to valid Sacraments (best of both worlds, eh?), I chose an improvement in my affairs by selecting #1 (unwoke society with limited access).

Quote from: Baylee on April 26, 2024, 02:41:25 PMGiven I already live in a woke society with limited access to valid Sacraments (best of both worlds, eh?), I chose an improvement in my affairs by selecting #1 (unwoke society with limited access).

Are you Canadian?

I need to save my soul. Wokeness itself doesn't do anything to prevent that. Yeah it's annoying as hell but I have seen a resurgence of common sense in my generation.

Having access to reliable TLM and sacraments is far more important to me.

Quote from: Melkor on April 26, 2024, 03:34:57 PMI need to save my soul. Wokeness itself doesn't do anything to prevent that. Yeah it's annoying as hell but I have seen a resurgence of common sense in my generation.

Having access to reliable TLM and sacraments is far more important to me.

In b4 "hopefully this access is to a man ordained by a bishop consecrated in the pre 1968 rite or else it is invalid."

 :cheeseheadbeer:

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 26, 2024, 03:38:09 PM

Quote from: Melkor on April 26, 2024, 03:34:57 PMI need to save my soul. Wokeness itself doesn't do anything to prevent that. Yeah it's annoying as hell but I have seen a resurgence of common sense in my generation.

Having access to reliable TLM and sacraments is far more important to me.

In b4 "hopefully this access is to a man ordained by a bishop consecrated in the pre 1968 rite or else it is invalid."

 :cheeseheadbeer:

Don't forget - he has to clearly, regularly, and publicly denounce Bergoglio and the Conciliar Church, otherwise it doesn't count.

Quote from: Kaesekopf on April 26, 2024, 03:46:21 PM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 26, 2024, 03:38:09 PM

Quote from: Melkor on April 26, 2024, 03:34:57 PMI need to save my soul. Wokeness itself doesn't do anything to prevent that. Yeah it's annoying as hell but I have seen a resurgence of common sense in my generation.

Having access to reliable TLM and sacraments is far more important to me.

In b4 "hopefully this access is to a man ordained by a bishop consecrated in the pre 1968 rite or else it is invalid."

 :cheeseheadbeer:

Don't forget - he has to clearly, regularly, and publicly denounce Bergoglio and the Conciliar Church, otherwise it doesn't count.

He also would need to not recognize and resist, but be sedevacantist. Or else his position would be aligned with enemies of Catholicism.

I lived in Spain for 12 years in the most conservative and Catholic part, and there is still a lot of vestiges of the Catholic past all over; but the people have been almost totally ravaged by the modernist clergy and the continuous anti-Catholic propaganda in the media and school system.
There is more Catholicism in the U.S. Than in Spain, and 100x less anti-Catholicism.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 26, 2024, 05:01:54 PMI lived in Spain for 12 years in the most conservative and Catholic part, and there is still a lot of vestiges of the Catholic past all over; but the people have been almost totally ravaged by the modernist clergy and the continuous anti-Catholic propaganda in the media and school system.
There is more Catholicism in the U.S. Than in Spain, and 100x less anti-Catholicism.

¿Cuál parte?

Cantabria.

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 26, 2024, 03:50:06 PM

Quote from: Kaesekopf on April 26, 2024, 03:46:21 PM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 26, 2024, 03:38:09 PM

Quote from: Melkor on April 26, 2024, 03:34:57 PMI need to save my soul. Wokeness itself doesn't do anything to prevent that. Yeah it's annoying as hell but I have seen a resurgence of common sense in my generation.

Having access to reliable TLM and sacraments is far more important to me.

In b4 "hopefully this access is to a man ordained by a bishop consecrated in the pre 1968 rite or else it is invalid."

 :cheeseheadbeer:

Don't forget - he has to clearly, regularly, and publicly denounce Bergoglio and the Conciliar Church, otherwise it doesn't count.

He also would need to not recognize and resist, but be sedevacantist. Or else his position would be aligned with enemies of Catholicism.

Well you two are on a roll.  What are you trying to accomplish by mocking those of us who have strong opinions on the invalidity of new order priests/where we prefer to assist mass?  Would you like me to leave the forum? If so just say the word because your childish/rude behavior is getting old.

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich. Laus, I(and many others) are eagerly awaiting your anecdotes, assessments, and compare/contrasts of your trip. Also, curiously, what are the nationalities of the Society priests serving the mission there? Spasseeva.

I would prefer pre-Anschluss Austria

Quote from: Bernadette on April 26, 2024, 01:23:07 PM

Quote from: Heinrich on April 25, 2024, 05:08:24 PMI picked other. I would prefer to live in 1938 Munich.

Care to elaborate about why you'd pick that time specifically?

Nur ein Wort hier passt: die Geborgenheit.

ETA: explanation of word: https://germanyinusa.com/2021/02/24/word-of-the-week-geborgenheit/

I picked no 1.

After coming through the Covid year of none or restricted access to Sacraments, I can tell you it was torture for me personally.  I need the Sacraments (no more than anyone else) and somehow feel that God was giving me a preview or taste of what is to come and I can definitely feel His hand in shaping me for the last few years in preparation for that. Deo Gratis.

More Sacraments will cure the 'woke' eventually, not the other way around.

Queen Saints, lovely words on our homeland.

Recently heard from a very conservative Polish man who lives in Dublin for years.  Last Ash Wednesday he couldn't believe how packed the church was(NO),  and he thinks people are sick after the jab and also know deep in their soul, somethings up...they are returning to mass.

I voted 'Other', a non-woke country with continuous access to the traditional sacraments.

Quote from: awkward customer on April 27, 2024, 03:36:21 AMI voted 'Other', a non-woke country with continuous access to the traditional sacraments.

Doesn't exist

It's really a choice between "very","medium" and "less" woke; Russia is just "less" woke than say Hungary, and they are less than France etc. The remedy for "wokeness" is not "less" wokeness or another erroneous ideology, but the Catholic faith. For individuals, I highly recommend the "spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius"; particularly the first meditation on God: "Principle and Foundation"

Quote13FIRST WEEK
PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION
Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul.
And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in
prosecuting the end for which he is created.
From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought
to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it.
For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created things in all that is allowed
to the choice of our free will and is not prohibited to it; so that, on our part, we want not health
rather than sickness, riches rather than poverty, honor rather than dishonor, long rather than short
life, and so in all the rest; desiring and choosing only what is most conducive for us to the end for
which we are created.

Man is a creature who is totally dependent on God, and whose whole purpose of existence and life is to know love and serve God. There is no alternative to God's plan for order, men do not have the 'right' to any other plan or idea.

Quote from: Baylee on April 26, 2024, 06:44:11 PMWell you two are on a roll.  What are you trying to accomplish by mocking those of us who have strong opinions on the invalidity of new order priests/where we prefer to assist mass?

This forum is the virtual house/cafe/meetup spot for the "two of us."

I am not sure who you are claiming to speak on behalf of when you use the first person plural pronoun of "us."

Here is a clear example of you interjecting your belief that the new rites of ordination and consecration are invalid into a discussion that did not broach these topics:

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=31538.msg629717#msg629717

The OP is clearly not a sedevacantist, SSPXer, etc. and stated she went to her "local parish." Also, a quick glance at her posting history demonstrates she has demonstrable anxiety and scruples regarding many issues in her life.

It is clearly your view that the best course of action in that moment was for you to post what you did, and promote your "party line" on the current situation in the Church.

I've been around for a long time, and the most prolific, intelligent, and charitable Sedevacantist posters I knew ( @Michael Wilson or @INPEFESS ) did not do this, either on this, or other forums, that they participated on.

So, I can post exactly what I posted, and if you don't like it, it's on you. I am not going to stand by and allow one invited into our virtual "house" or "coffee shop" to proceed to call all of my guests who are non-sede as having a position aligned with non-Catholics/enemies of the Church, or to constantly tell people who go to their local parish that all of their sacraments are invalid. It would be bad hospitality on my part, if nothing else.

QuoteWould you like me to leave the forum? If so just say the word because your childish/rude behavior is getting old.

If either of us wanted you gone, it would be done in an instant. As Tony Soprano said, "You probably don't even hear it when it happens, right?"

Neither of us, nor anyone for that matter, forces anyone to log in, type, and hit the post button.

It depends, many variables.

I'm of the opinion of clau clau and Kaesekopf, grow where you are planted as much as possible, but if times are desperate, one can never rule it out.

I'd also say in regards to woke and less woke, that I think the same was true before WWII, as the Allies all dabbled with the Darwinism, Atheism and Eugenics of the Nazis, it's only when they could see what the Nazis did with it, and that they were the ones declared the 'inferior' race to die out or be killed off, that they went in the opposite direction, just like the 'liberals' during the French Revolution who supported many of their ideas, until they witnessed the 'Reign of Terror' in the name of 'Liberty'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States

So as long as the 'less woke' are not caught in the net when it becomes full and gets dragged in, they can wake up and go in the opposite direction if they still have the means to do so.

Personally I don't have the means or connections to make such a massive move even if I wanted to, so I will stay where I am no matter what and pray for the best.

God Bless

Quote from: EastWest7 on April 26, 2024, 10:00:25 AMAlthough speaking of naivete, I still secretly long for the Catholic Church to return to its pre-Vatican II orthodoxy and there to be a reunion of it and the Orthodox Church. Of course, in the real world I cannot ever see the Orthodox agreeing amongst themselves, let alone returning to unity with Rome. Heck, Constantinople and Moscow are now not even in communion with one another.

Not to go too far off topic, but I see a possibility, a ROC broken away from these other corrupted Orthodox groups seeking the fullness of the truth, then a restored Roman Catholic Church seeking the fullness of truth, there is a possibility there for a reunion of sorts based on the truth, which would be long lasting, rather than some false union out of convenience.

The very schisms in Orthodoxy (Part of a pressure campaign against Russia IMO) I see as rather similar to the ones in Catholicism, only ours are currently more hidden bubbling under the surface with those who love Bergoglio and those of us who see him as a destroyer... a non-canonically elected destroyer as per St Francis of Assisi in my case.

The ROC do get a lot right, I think the Catholic Church needs to recognise Mary's status as Co-Redemptrix which fits perfectly with the Immaculate Conception and the Dormition, which according to Wikipedia Pope Sergius I (687–701) recognised the Dormition also.

My main issue would be the leavened bread issue, as Exodus 12 is very clear about the instructions for the Passover, in no uncertain words and all the Jews of the time knew it very well. Nevertheless we are still in a sort of communion with other Orthodox groups who use this, as we recognise the Red Wine to be valid matter and the married Priests thing is perhaps another hurdle, so time will tell anyway, in any case, we do have a lot in common and one can recognise the others commonality without compromising on the truth IMO. 

God Bless

The difference between the Catholic Church and all other groups, no matter how much they resemble the Catholic Church in doctrine or discipline, is that there is only one divine institution here on earth that is God's instrument for the salvation of mankind. The Catholic Church isn't the "best" among a group of similar institutions, but the only one of its kind: The Mystical Body of Christ.
The present crisis in the Church has caused many Catholics to lose sight of the fact, that just as during the Passion, our Lord's divine nature was obscured, so that it appeared that His enemies had triumphed over Him by killing Him; so in our present day, the divine nature of His Mystical Body is so obscured by the present crisis of the Church, that many have lost sight of this, and begin to see the Church just as "another" good group, but not as "The" Church.

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 27, 2024, 10:16:42 PM

Quote from: Baylee on April 26, 2024, 06:44:11 PMWell you two are on a roll.  What are you trying to accomplish by mocking those of us who have strong opinions on the invalidity of new order priests/where we prefer to assist mass?

This forum is the virtual house/cafe/meetup spot for the "two of us."

I am not sure who you are claiming to speak on behalf of when you use the first person plural pronoun of "us."

Here is a clear example of you interjecting your belief that the new rites of ordination and consecration are invalid into a discussion that did not broach these topics:

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=31538.msg629717#msg629717

The OP is clearly not a sedevacantist, SSPXer, etc. and stated she went to her "local parish." Also, a quick glance at her posting history demonstrates she has demonstrable anxiety and scruples regarding many issues in her life.

It is clearly your view that the best course of action in that moment was for you to post what you did, and promote your "party line" on the current situation in the Church.

I've been around for a long time, and the most prolific, intelligent, and charitable Sedevacantist posters I knew ( @Michael Wilson or @INPEFESS ) did not do this, either on this, or other forums, that they participated on.

So, I can post exactly what I posted, and if you don't like it, it's on you. I am not going to stand by and allow one invited into our virtual "house" or "coffee shop" to proceed to call all of my guests who are non-sede as having a position aligned with non-Catholics/enemies of the Church, or to constantly tell people who go to their local parish that all of their sacraments are invalid. It would be bad hospitality on my part, if nothing else.

QuoteWould you like me to leave the forum? If so just say the word because your childish/rude behavior is getting old.

If either of us wanted you gone, it would be done in an instant. As Tony Soprano said, "You probably don't even hear it when it happens, right?"

Neither of us, nor anyone for that matter, forces anyone to log in, type, and hit the post button.

So only YOUR party line is allowed, and I must walk on eggshells if I don't fit YOUR party line.  And you can continue to be rude and mocking while you do it.  Bye.

Baylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Some do not have the thick skin needed for fora life.

I also would not lump you in with someone like the poster known as "Baylee."

When someone like Käsekopf went to a Diocesan seminary, I recall that you asked him how it was.

You did not immediately opine how he would have been invalidly ordained, etc.

That is the difference.

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 10:53:49 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Some do not have the thick skin needed for fora life.

Oh, I've got plenty thick skin otherwise I would not have challenged you a number of times in the past few weeks.  I choose to walk away.   

I refuse to worry that my comments are too much for others to handle.  It seems that you coddle those who don't have thick skin and can't possibly deal with my strong opinions on certain matters. Despite them and contrary to your assertion, I have striven to be charitable.  You, on the other hand, do not strive to do so. Hypocrite.

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:04:26 AM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 10:53:49 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Some do not have the thick skin needed for fora life.

Oh, I've got plenty thick skin otherwise I would not have challenged you a number of times in the past few weeks.  I choose to walk away.   

I refuse to worry that my comments are too much for others to handle.  It seems that you coddle those who don't have thick skin and can't possibly deal with my strong opinions on certain matters. Despite them and contrary to your assertion, I have striven to be charitable.  You, on the other hand, do not strive to do so. Hypocrite.

Those who huff and puff "I'm leaving" usually don't tend to do so.

The issue has never been your strong opinions. It has been your posting of them all over your forum.

As @Kaesekopf remarked, there's more to life than sedevacantism. Maybe not for you, though.

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 11:08:20 AM

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:04:26 AM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 10:53:49 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Some do not have the thick skin needed for fora life.

Oh, I've got plenty thick skin otherwise I would not have challenged you a number of times in the past few weeks.  I choose to walk away.   

I refuse to worry that my comments are too much for others to handle.  It seems that you coddle those who don't have thick skin and can't possibly deal with my strong opinions on certain matters. Despite them and contrary to your assertion, I have striven to be charitable.  You, on the other hand, do not strive to do so. Hypocrite.

Those who huff and puff "I'm leaving" usually don't tend to do so.

The issue has never been your strong opinions. It has been your posting of them all over your forum.

As @Kaesekopf remarked, there's more to life than sedevacantism. Maybe not for you, though.

"All over the forum". I'd love to see the evidence.  :rofl:

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:14:22 AM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 11:08:20 AM

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:04:26 AM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 10:53:49 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Some do not have the thick skin needed for fora life.

Oh, I've got plenty thick skin otherwise I would not have challenged you a number of times in the past few weeks.  I choose to walk away.   

I refuse to worry that my comments are too much for others to handle.  It seems that you coddle those who don't have thick skin and can't possibly deal with my strong opinions on certain matters. Despite them and contrary to your assertion, I have striven to be charitable.  You, on the other hand, do not strive to do so. Hypocrite.

Those who huff and puff "I'm leaving" usually don't tend to do so.

The issue has never been your strong opinions. It has been your posting of them all over your forum.

As @Kaesekopf remarked, there's more to life than sedevacantism. Maybe not for you, though.

I've written plenty of posts not related to Sedevacantism.

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 11:08:20 AM

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:04:26 AM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 10:53:49 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Some do not have the thick skin needed for fora life.

Oh, I've got plenty thick skin otherwise I would not have challenged you a number of times in the past few weeks.  I choose to walk away.   

I refuse to worry that my comments are too much for others to handle.  It seems that you coddle those who don't have thick skin and can't possibly deal with my strong opinions on certain matters. Despite them and contrary to your assertion, I have striven to be charitable.  You, on the other hand, do not strive to do so. Hypocrite.

Those who huff and puff "I'm leaving" usually don't tend to do so.

The issue has never been your strong opinions. It has been your posting of them all over your forum.

As @Kaesekopf remarked, there's more to life than sedevacantism. Maybe not for you, though.

"All over the forum". I'd love to see the evidence.   :rofl:

I've already given the examples.

I called you out and you said "I'm leaving."

That appears to be false.

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 11:15:29 AM

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:14:22 AM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 11:08:20 AM

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:04:26 AM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 10:53:49 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Some do not have the thick skin needed for fora life.

Oh, I've got plenty thick skin otherwise I would not have challenged you a number of times in the past few weeks.  I choose to walk away.   

I refuse to worry that my comments are too much for others to handle.  It seems that you coddle those who don't have thick skin and can't possibly deal with my strong opinions on certain matters. Despite them and contrary to your assertion, I have striven to be charitable.  You, on the other hand, do not strive to do so. Hypocrite.

Those who huff and puff "I'm leaving" usually don't tend to do so.

The issue has never been your strong opinions. It has been your posting of them all over your forum.

As @Kaesekopf remarked, there's more to life than sedevacantism. Maybe not for you, though.

I've written plenty of posts not related to Sedevacantism.

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 11:08:20 AM

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:04:26 AM

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 28, 2024, 10:53:49 AM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Some do not have the thick skin needed for fora life.

Oh, I've got plenty thick skin otherwise I would not have challenged you a number of times in the past few weeks.  I choose to walk away.   

I refuse to worry that my comments are too much for others to handle.  It seems that you coddle those who don't have thick skin and can't possibly deal with my strong opinions on certain matters. Despite them and contrary to your assertion, I have striven to be charitable.  You, on the other hand, do not strive to do so. Hypocrite.

Those who huff and puff "I'm leaving" usually don't tend to do so.

The issue has never been your strong opinions. It has been your posting of them all over your forum.

As @Kaesekopf remarked, there's more to life than sedevacantism. Maybe not for you, though.

"All over the forum". I'd love to see the evidence.   :rofl:

I've already given the examples.

I called you out and you said "I'm leaving."

That appears to be false.

I will leave when I decide I'm done. 

"examples"? Plural?   :lol: I saw one (which was written respectfully).  That doesn't constitute "all over the forum".  Basically, your comment that I do this "all over the forum" is a lie.  Plain and simple.

The truth is you don't like what I've been writing about a lot of things lately (i.e. not just my sede posts) and you (and K) chose to mock it. So charitable of you.     

QuoteI will leave when I decide I'm done.

Ah, so you have no other place to go!

If this place were so intolerable, and I were as uncharitable, rude, and childish as you've claimed, your continued participation here would make you...what was that word you used to describe me...a "hypocrite!"

Last I checked, CathInfo is taking new members. You could always go there, and tell @MatthewCI that his recognize and resist position is aligned with enemies of the Church.

Let's see how long you'd last.

I'd give it...two days.

Otherwise, your continued participation here only weakens your claims.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:44:31 AMBaylee,
clearly they were joking back and forth at our (sedes) expense; I was going to do the same back at them, but it came out sounding too snarky. Don't get in a huff and leave, just take it for what it is worth.

Sorry MW. This wasn't just a friendly joking around. Clearly, I'm not the kind of sede welcome here. I'm not willing to keep my mouth shut nor to accept rude comments from anyone no matter their position on the forum just to keep the peace.  This was brewing for me for a while now.

Things like the opinion that the NO Rites is invalid is basically a forbidden topic because it offends those who are not thick-skinned around here.  It's just not in the forum rules. If they were honest, they would add it to the forum rules.

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 27, 2024, 10:16:42 PMI am not going to stand by and allow one invited into our virtual "house" or "coffee shop" to proceed to call all of my guests who are non-sede as having a position aligned with non-Catholics/enemies of the Church, or to constantly tell people who go to their local parish that all of their sacraments are invalid. It would be bad hospitality on my part, if nothing else.

But Baylee doesn't post her Sede views all over the forum. She just doesn't.  You've given one example.

And I understand that you and KK want Sedism to stay in its own sub-forum because you don't want to put people off SD. But you can both be a bit cavalier at times not to mention upsettingly rude, although that could be because of my own thin skin.

Politeness for the sake of keeping the peace can have its drawbacks though, you must admit.   

Quote from: awkward customerPoliteness for the sake of keeping the peace can have its drawbacks though, you must admit.   

2 or 3 posts were made in jest, and Baylee said that this place was intolerable, that the owner and I are childish and rude, and that this would be a farewell from the forum.

There have been no moderation sanctions, such as bans, or even formal warnings given.

I can, in jest, post what others do unironically, no?

People often huff and puff, and say they will leave, sometimes add a little uncharitable spice, but end up not doing so.

I've seen that take place more than once.

The Forum Owner and I usually are quite lax and laissez faire with most moderation.

People have said many things to me, such as it being a good thing that my wife miscarried, or a variety of other phraseology, and they have not been banned.

It is no different in this case.

Quote from: awkward customer on April 27, 2024, 03:36:21 AMI voted 'Other', a non-woke country with continuous access to the traditional sacraments.

Good choice.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:07:08 AMThe difference between the Catholic Church and all other groups, no matter how much they resemble the Catholic Church in doctrine or discipline, is that there is only one divine institution here on earth that is God's instrument for the salvation of mankind. The Catholic Church isn't the "best" among a group of similar institutions, but the only one of its kind: The Mystical Body of Christ.
The present crisis in the Church has caused many Catholics to lose sight of the fact, that just as during the Passion, our Lord's divine nature was obscured, so that it appeared that His enemies had triumphed over Him by killing Him; so in our present day, the divine nature of His Mystical Body is so obscured by the present crisis of the Church, that many have lost sight of this, and begin to see the Church just as "another" good group, but not as "The" Church.

Beautifully put and so true.

Just as we know that God never asks anything of us that isn't in our own very best interests and will make us not only the happiest we could ever be, but happy at all. Everything else will make us miserable, not just a little less happy.

And when He told us that there is only the One True Church that can bring us to Heaven, it was not because every other option would work a little less well, it was because every other option would not work at all and would lead to Hell.

Quote from: Baylee on April 28, 2024, 11:34:26 AMSorry MW. This wasn't just a friendly joking around. Clearly, I'm not the kind of sede welcome here. I'm not willing to keep my mouth shut nor to accept rude comments from anyone no matter their position on the forum just to keep the peace.  This was brewing for me for a while now.

Things like the opinion that the NO Rites is invalid is basically a forbidden topic because it offends those who are not thick-skinned around here.  It's just not in the forum rules. If they were honest, they would add it to the forum rules.

It is welcome on the sede thread; do you think we can post such remarks on most non-sed forums (C.I. excepted) forums?
Also, Bonaventure more or less agrees with the sed position; so he is basically engaging in self deprecating humor.
You are welcome here because the only person that has threatened to ban you (so to speak) is yourself.
Cool off for a couple of days, and see if you don't see things differently and don't leave.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 04:21:15 PMYou are welcome here because the only person that has threatened to ban you (so to speak) is yourself.
 
Cool off for a couple of days, and see if you don't see things differently and don't leave.

x2, while I'm not a Sede in the same sense, I'm what they'd call a Benevecantist, since Pope Benedict XVI has passed away now, I'm officially a Sede, although it's probably the wrong word for it because it's rather different from what is considered a Sede given that I recognise those as Pope John Paul II as completely valid Popes.

In any case, I've been on forums where just bringing such topics up got me banned, so this forum is very good in this regard and very different from so many others out there, thus here is really the only place I know where honest and meaningful discussions on such topics can take place, and of course, if ones positions don't face criticism how can you be sure they are true? blocking yourself off from all criticism provides a false sense of security IMO.

I also don't think those who acknowledge Francis have invalid sacraments either, anymore than during the time of Anti-Popes after Boniface VIII that those who followed various Anti-Popes had invalid sacraments, I think their sacraments were legit and that it was simply a dispute of the Papacy and today heresies, which so far have not changed the Sacraments, if Bergoglio changes the words of consecration for example, then I will call it invalid, but until then I simply believe him to be a usurper trying to lead the faithful astray.

Communion in the hands for example was a very bad development, it's so bad precisely because it's a valid sacrament and it's so open to sacrilege, disbelief and irreverence, if it were invalid then communion on the hands would be meaningless.

God Bless