Author Topic: Timothy Gordon on Vatican 2  (Read 2645 times)

Offline Philip G.

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Re: Timothy Gordon on Vatican 2
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2021, 02:49:38 PM »
At least Tim is being consistent. He believes that Paul VI was a true Pope, endowed with the protection of the Holy Ghost, and therefore incapable of promulgating pernicious error to the whole Church. Consequently, Vatican IIís documents are incapable of erring (at least secondarily infallible), and one is obliged to give full assent to the doctrines.

He is sadly mistaken, because Vatican II is a substantial rupture with Catholicism, but, at least he is consistent, as opposed to R&Rs.

If I remember correctly, the user Vetus Ordo said that (loosely paraphrasing, itís been awhile), concerning Vatican II, one is either a sedevacantist or a Novus Ordo (FSSP, ICK included). With a correct understanding of the Magisterium of the Church, one can not ďRecognize and ResistĒ. I fought him vehemently on this, ignorantly.

Itís been a while since Iíve posted here. Hello, everyone. I hope your Lent is going well. God bless.

Hippie mass novus ordites and dogmatic non una cum sedevacantists are opposite sides of the same coin. 
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 
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Offline ChristusRex

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Re: Timothy Gordon on Vatican 2
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2021, 04:51:48 PM »
At least Tim is being consistent. He believes that Paul VI was a true Pope, endowed with the protection of the Holy Ghost, and therefore incapable of promulgating pernicious error to the whole Church. Consequently, Vatican IIís documents are incapable of erring (at least secondarily infallible), and one is obliged to give full assent to the doctrines.

He is sadly mistaken, because Vatican II is a substantial rupture with Catholicism, but, at least he is consistent, as opposed to R&Rs.

If I remember correctly, the user Vetus Ordo said that (loosely paraphrasing, itís been awhile), concerning Vatican II, one is either a sedevacantist or a Novus Ordo (FSSP, ICK included). With a correct understanding of the Magisterium of the Church, one can not ďRecognize and ResistĒ. I fought him vehemently on this, ignorantly.

Itís been a while since Iíve posted here. Hello, everyone. I hope your Lent is going well. God bless.

Hippie mass novus ordites and dogmatic non una cum sedevacantists are opposite sides of the same coin.

Haha. What did I say that was incorrect?

Well, I believe the Novus Ordites are wrong, but at least they donít explicitly try to limit the powers of the Pope.
The Lord our God from tree doth reign
 
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Offline lauermar

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Re: Timothy Gordon on Vatican 2
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2021, 05:18:09 PM »
Salvation outside the church is possible but irregular and cannot be presumed.

Any truth found in secular philosophy or in heretical churches was stolen from Catholic saints.

St. Louis De Montfort is not of the opinion that sinners can merit heaven on their own. He stated repeatedly that salvation comes through Christ, perfect contrition, reparation and baptism. Jesus preached this. St. Ignatius de Loyola wrote the same.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 05:24:15 PM by lauermar »
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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: Timothy Gordon on Vatican 2
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2021, 05:41:35 PM »


Salvation outside the church is possible but irregular and cannot be presumed.

There is no salvation outside of the Church. That is a dogma. Those of other religions who somehow make it to heaven would be considered inside of the Church by that mere fact.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Timothy Gordon on Vatican 2
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2021, 09:45:41 PM »
Re. The quote from Cardinal Ratzinger posted by Xavier on page 1; leaves out an important part of the document that helps us to see the opposition between "subsist in" and "is" in the mind of the authors of Vatican II:
Quote
The difference between subsistit and est however contains the tragedy of ecclesial division. Although the Church is only one and "subsists" in a unique subject, there are also ecclesial realities beyond this subjectótrue local Churches and different ecclesial communities. Because sin is a contradiction, this difference between subsistit and est cannot be fully resolved from the logical viewpoint. The paradox of the difference between the unique and concrete character of the Church, on the one hand, and, on the other, the existence of an ecclesial reality beyond the one subject, reflects the contradictory nature of human sin and division.
So, thanks to Cardinal Ratzinger, we are assured that:  "The difference between subsistit and est cannot be fully resolved from the logical viewpoint": Why; You may ask? Because if one identifies the Mystical Body of Christ simply and exclusively as the Catholic Church; there is no "room" to fit in "Ecclessial communities" beyond the Catholic Church; and therefore no more "Ecumenism" of convergence.
If you allow the Mystical Body of Christ to (merely) "subsist in" the Catholic Church, then there is room for "true local Churches  and ecclesial communities (different than the Catholic Church).
But the Catholic Church has always held that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Catholic Church are "one and the same''; that  there are no other true Churches or different ecclesial communities outside the Church. This is Cardinal Ratzinger the Hegellian dialectitian, trying to literally "square the circle".
As Big Bad Trad pointed out earlier this error of "subsistit" allows for the false concept of "partial communion" of the Catholic Church with other false sects, styled "Churches" by the Cardinal. 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 09:48:00 PM by Michael Wilson »
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"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers