I think part of the reason for scrupulosity...

Started by TandJ, April 11, 2021, 06:50:33 PM

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TandJ

Especially for converts is the lack of clarity or different priests giving different opinions online regarding sin. For example, for a former Protestant like myself, when I read a trad priest online state things like leggings on very young children is mortally sinful, or going to the beach or pool is mortally sinful, Disney movies are sinful etc this quite rightly frightens people because none of this stuff seems to the average person to even be close to mortally sinful. So you have this confused convert walking around wondering what other normal everyday things COULD be sinful because it seems like everything is all of a sudden.

I feel kind of like I'm being gaslit by people saying yeah your scrupulous when I never was before becoming Catholic and having all of this seemingly innocent stuff in my life end up somehow being gravely sinful. So then I go to confession with a huge list of sins or questions about potentially sinful things in my life that I could be missing just to be sure since all the other "mortal sins" listed above weren't totally obvious to me or 99.9 percent of other Catholics.

Kaesekopf

Yeah, you are not wrong.

You should focus less on the sermons by priests online and more on good, level-headed saints like St Francis de Sales.  I think reading "Intro to the Devout Life" is a must for you.  I think it'd help even things out, as you grow in the Faith. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

james03

The priest is right and he is wrong.  He is right that neglecting the modesty of your children is grave matter.  What he misses is that you have to know it is wrong.  So in a lot of cases it is not mortal sin.  His problem is his approach.  He should instead be preaching how neglecting modesty as a parent is gravely wrong.  If the parents keep doing it, THEN it is mortal sin.

Coming from a Prot world, you didn't get much of an education in sin.  I'm in a Prot heavy place.  Protestantism is more of a big social club more than a religion.  I know of a Catholic who sent his kids to public school.  Very Prot heavy town.  His kids were around the second grade. He discovered that the kids were being taught about faggot lifestyle of just being an option.  He sent the evidence via email to all of the other parents.  They did absolutely nothing because that would upset the Prot social apple cart. So he pulled his kid and made the sacrifice for private school.

So I'm not surprised that you would experience this culture shock.  Yes, don't aclimate your little kids into dressing like sluts.  That will then be the norm for high school and your teenagers will fornicate.

Also, Disney movies are trash and promote feminism.  The older ones are ok, but today they are a horror.

But again, the approach was wrong by the priest.

I second the recommendation to read St. Francis de Sales for a more balanced approach.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

TandJ

#3
I'm not talking about kids dressing like adult streetwalkers, I'm talking about way prepubescent children wearing a normal shirt and leggings like all other normal children do and nobody even thinks twice that it could be immodest because a normal person doesn't sexualize little children. I've ran this same question through three different priests with assurance it's not by any means a sin for a small child to dress like this. So who do I believe! See this is the confusion that makes me almost want to give up. I just want to raise my kids normally and not have them go off the deep end and hate me when they are older for forcing them to dress like Laura Ingalls Wilder because in the opinion of one priest leggings are sinful. These priests likewise said Disney is fine and it's better they watch these things when you can guide them they the morality then have them see them later and not have the teaching opportunity.

Do you know what our friends and family would think if we told them that the beach was sinful to visit? They would say I've lost my mind. Beaches and pools can be occasions of sin for SOME people but unless it's a proximate occasion one isn't bound to avoid it. I've checked this one out too and again he said obviously don't go where there's like drunk spring breakers but there's nothing inherently sinful about these places.

I guess my frustration lies with the extreme voices out there that don't realize how much damage they cause to people like me.

One of my children had a lesbian teacher in third grade. I was worried and asked a priest and he said I didn't have to remove her from school because she wasn't preaching her lifestyle to the kids, and homeschooling was mentally impossible for me at the time due to stress and suicidal thoughts.  I hope I didn't sin by listening to him but I dont think my child even knew anything. I only found out by looking at the teachers Facebook page

Melkor

@TandJ I feel for you, I really do. As a cradle Catholic I had my Faith handed to me by my two knowledgeable parents, who never were of the Laura Ingalls mentality. I wasn't sheltered, although I was homeschooled. In the world but not of it kind of thing. I was taught to know the evils surrounding us, and recognize that they are evil, but also taught that I would be in the world when I grew up, and would have to deal with them. If you make your kids the weird ones at school, and their experience with Catholicism is being ostracized by their peers and being made fun of ALL the time, of course they are going to hate it, and leave whenever they get the chance. But public school is really no place for your kids, I've seen some of my Catholic peers go to public school, and they left the Faith when they were 16ish. On the pools issue, if you have little boys it really is not the best thing to bring them to these places; little dudes grow into big dudes who like girls. They are going to be exposed to it, sure, but deliberately putting them in a dangerous occasion of sin is not wise I think.

I cannot imagine becoming a convert in this day and age, it would be mega stressful, what with the situation in the Church, our own little stagnant trad parishes with their healthy accumulation of weirdos, and the many, many conflicting things people will tell you to do. Praying for you!
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Daniel

#5
It's a real problem, and I don't see an answer. We're supposed to trust our priests, yet our priests contradict each other, and you never know if what you're hearing is a teaching or mere opinion.

Immodesty is a problem though, and I can't imagine why you'd want to dress your kids in leggings. If I understand your objection correctly, I think you are mistaken: you are failing to distinguish between what's "normal" (modest) and what's "vulgar" (commonplace, and oftentimes immodest). If 90% of the population dresses one way, that doesn't necessarily mean it's "normal". It's worth pointing out, we don't live in a Catholic society. More probably, when 90% of the population says "these clothes are ok", what's happening is that this 90% of the population is completely ignorant and doesn't know immodesty when they're looking right at it. Or, maybe they know immodesty and just don't care. Or, worse, they know it and they nevertheless deliberately choose immodesty over modesty.

Disney is no longer fine. As James said, the newer films promote feminism and liberalism. Even the older stuff is questionable. But the newer stuff isn't even that great, artistically speaking.

I'm not going to attempt to pass judgement concerning the sinfulness of these things, but I don't see why any of this would even be desired. I do see your fear that your children are eventually going to rebel, and I am not sure how to answer that. But why would you want to get your children into the habit of dressing in a way that's ugly and un-Catholic, or filling their minds with garbage from Disney movies?

Regarding beaches, that is difficult. There unfortunately are no modest beaches as far as I'm aware (unless you're rich and own your own private beach), but I do think it sounds unreasonable to say that all beaches are off-limits always. Maybe go to the beach in the early morning, or during the off-season or something? Far less crowded and less immodest, though the water might be a bit colder and there won't be any lifeguards. That's how I personally like it though; you get the whole beach more or less to yourself. (Except I don't have children.)

The Curt Jester

As far as leggings go, don't have your children wear them because they will be habit when they get older and then it is immodest.  I worked in a school and on certain "dress down" days, the girls would almost all wear leggings or ultra-skinny jeans as pants.  It's like wearing underwear to school.  Let's just say that anyone seeing them from the rear doesn't get a fun sight.  No way do you want your teen daughters (or adult ones!) looking like that, even if the rest of society thinks it's normal.  Nor would you want them looking like that as adults.

For teenage girls and young women it is immodest.  For older women it's ridiculous.  Also, hint:  it's not an attractive look either way.  Ultra-tight clothes accentuate your physical condition, so if you're overweight, you look even more so.  If you're skinny, then you'll look like you never eat.
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

TandJ

Quote from: Melkor on April 12, 2021, 08:46:38 AM
@TandJ I feel for you, I really do. As a cradle Catholic I had my Faith handed to me by my two knowledgeable parents, who never were of the Laura Ingalls mentality. I wasn't sheltered, although I was homeschooled. In the world but not of it kind of thing. I was taught to know the evils surrounding us, and recognize that they are evil, but also taught that I would be in the world when I grew up, and would have to deal with them. If you make your kids the weird ones at school, and their experience with Catholicism is being ostracized by their peers and being made fun of ALL the time, of course they are going to hate it, and leave whenever they get the chance. But public school is really no place for your kids, I've seen some of my Catholic peers go to public school, and they left the Faith when they were 16ish. On the pools issue, if you have little boys it really is not the best thing to bring them to these places; little dudes grow into big dudes who like girls. They are going to be exposed to it, sure, but deliberately putting them in a dangerous occasion of sin is not wise I think.

I cannot imagine becoming a convert in this day and age, it would be mega stressful, what with the situation in the Church, our own little stagnant trad parishes with their healthy accumulation of weirdos, and the many, many conflicting things people will tell you to do. Praying for you!


Melkor I appreciate your opinions but like I said there's no other option for my younger kids. Catholic school is out and homeschooling will push me over the edge. Like I feel I'm pretty close to self admission to a psych unit TBH. So no there is no other option unless one of you fine people will volunteer to school my kids for me

TandJ

#8
I kind of wish that maybe it would be better if trads were normal 50's trads instead of the brand we see today. How come trads in other countries are not like here in the US? Like in France for example they don't care about the "pants" issue and stuff like that. Maybe I need to explore the eastern Catholic rite or something because I think there's going to be a breaking point with me being an American trad. I just want to be happy and I don't see that as a possibility with traditionalism and it really saddens me

Melkor

Quote from: TandJ on April 12, 2021, 02:22:21 PM
I kind of wish that maybe it would be better if trads were normal 50's trads instead of the brand we see today. How come trads in other countries are not like here in the US? Like in France for example they don't care about the "pants" issue and stuff like that. They are actually normal. Maybe I need to explore the eastern Catholic rite or something because I think there's going to be a breaking point with me being an American trad. I just want to be happy and I don't see that as a possibility with traditionalism and it really saddens me

50's Catholics are the reason we are in this mess.
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

TandJ

#10
Quote from: Melkor on April 12, 2021, 02:26:03 PM
Quote from: TandJ on April 12, 2021, 02:22:21 PM
I kind of wish that maybe it would be better if trads were normal 50's trads instead of the brand we see today. How come trads in other countries are not like here in the US? Like in France for example they don't care about the "pants" issue and stuff like that. Maybe I need to explore the eastern Catholic rite or something because I think there's going to be a breaking point with me being an American trad. I just want to be happy and I don't see that as a possibility with traditionalism and it really saddens me

50's Catholics are the reason we are in this mess.

Well something is currently wrong when a huge amount of trads struggle with scrupulosity as well

Jayne

Quote from: TandJ on April 12, 2021, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: Melkor on April 12, 2021, 02:26:03 PM
Quote from: TandJ on April 12, 2021, 02:22:21 PM
I kind of wish that maybe it would be better if trads were normal 50's trads instead of the brand we see today. How come trads in other countries are not like here in the US? Like in France for example they don't care about the "pants" issue and stuff like that. They are actually normal. Maybe I need to explore the eastern Catholic rite or something because I think there's going to be a breaking point with me being an American trad. I just want to be happy and I don't see that as a possibility with traditionalism and it really saddens me

50's Catholics are the reason we are in this mess.

Well something is currently wrong when a huge amount of trads struggle with scrupulosity as well

I agree that scrupulosity seems common among trads who post to forums.  But this does not necessarily mean that it is common among trads. 
In my experience, my real life interactions with trads are quite different from the ones online.  Also, the more extreme, more vocal people are more noticeable which makes it seem like there are more of them than there are.

I've been participating in trad forums for over a decade and it is almost inevitable that a discussion of modesty will become unpleasant and involve personal attacks.  Some people will accuse others of scrupulosity while other people make accusations of moral laxity.  This sort of thing is not at all helpful for those trying to figure out what one ought to do.

I am a convert too, so I know what you mean about it being especially hard for us to know who to listen to.  I have found that this has gotten easier over time, so perhaps you will find this too.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

james03

QuoteI just want to raise my kids normally

Well, that's good to know.  So if you want to do that let's define "normal":

Normal girls are no longer virgins by 18.
Normal girls support abortion.
If you add single moms to barren women, that is greater than 50%.
Normal girls end up on anti-depressants.
Normal girls don't marry before 30, if at all.
Normal girls think sodomy and fags are just another option.
Normal girls think a boy calling himself a girl is sane.
Normal girls are ardent socialist/fascist/statist to some degree.
Normal girls get tatted up.
Normal girls have a body count over 20, if not 50.
Normal girls end up becoming obese.
Normal girls can't pair bond and end up divorced if they can find a simp to marry her.
Normal girls, if they become moms, work and kennel their kids in strangercare.
Normal girls cuss like sailors.

It's a long list if you want to properly train your kids to be normal.  But there's a lot of help.  Give them a smart phone and a netflix subscription and they'll be trained properly.

Do I have your attention?  Normal is demonic today.  Now, we have a problem with the pendulem swinging to extremes.  On one hand is the demonic beliefs everywhere, and this side is dangerous to women because they are hyper conformists and don't want to be ostracized by team girl.  The other side are the bunker Trads.  This side thinks I'm an evil man because I would take Trad teens swing dancing.  Of course all of that cohort are now married with kids and still Trad, except one late blooming former bunker Trad, though he actually got engaged at one time.

So find priests and a chapel that have found the virtuous mean.   There should be socializing and fun outside of the religious ceremonies.  However, I never completely reject the bunker Trads because the greatest danger today is what you call "normal".  But they are not without fault because a number of their kids turn 18, announce everyone is crazy, and lose the Faith.  Find the virtuous means.

And dressing your little kids in tights only (why not add a skirt?) is slut training for high school.  The bunker Trad was correct with that.  Beach and pool?  They are fine as a family outing.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

QuoteOne of my children had a lesbian teacher in third grade.

Wait...... WHAT?

Where was the father?
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Gardener

Convert here from a mix of Baptist, Methodist, and later, Evangelical Superfun rockband "church" background.

Never really been scrupulous; if anything, the opposite. My cradle Catholic wife, however, fought it for years until we had enough kids that she had no time to think about everything being a sin. I think it's more a personality thing, or how one was raised, than conversion.

But, as far as folks like Fr. Isaac Mary Relyea, I learned pretty quickly to take him and those like him with a chunk of salt and trying to figure out what he was getting at rather than face value.

I have no desire for 1950's facades. JFK was a 1950's Catholic, and he got a nice funeral despite the fact that he was a known, habitual philanderer.

Fairly happy with the current paradigm. It's dangerous, and unknown, and that leaves plenty of room for sainthood when God decides it's go-time. Comfort is for the damned.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe