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The Church Courtyard => Catholic Liturgical Life => Topic started by: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM

Title: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX
If you're a minor you would have to go or you would be violating the 4th commandment. You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating. If it were me I'd pray the rosary or read from my missal.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX
If you're a minor you would have to go or you would be violating the 4th commandment. You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating. If it were me I'd pray the rosary or read from my missal.

A question about that, can a lay person pray the priest's prayers for that day(the secret, the introit, ect.), if he or she has no Mass to attend? Obviously I can read the readings, and I can NOT say the unchanging Mass, any of it, but what about the changing prayers? They seem like they would be good prayers for the day to pray, but I dont know if that is allowed.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Gardener on July 10, 2015, 05:33:29 PM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX
If you're a minor you would have to go or you would be violating the 4th commandment. You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating. If it were me I'd pray the rosary or read from my missal.

A parent can command a child to violate the 3rd Commandment? Please explain.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Daniel on July 10, 2015, 05:36:04 PM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
If you're a minor you would have to go or you would be violating the 4th commandment.
If this particular act of disobedience would be sinful for minors, then wouldn't it be sinful even if you're not a minor?  As far as I know, parents have natural authority over their children until death.

edit - Nevermind, I don't think I thought that through...
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Gardener on July 10, 2015, 05:42:02 PM
Quote from: Daniel on July 10, 2015, 05:36:04 PM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
If you're a minor you would have to go or you would be violating the 4th commandment.
If this particular act of disobedience would be sinful for minors, then wouldn't it be sinful even if you're not a minor?  As far as I know, parents have natural authority over their children until death.

If, as Elliot claimed, the NO is not a Catholic Mass, there is no obligation to obey the parents in attending it -- the opposite in fact. My mother had a fit when I converted at 27; a parent CANNOT withhold a child, no matter the age, from doing what is right.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: Gardener on July 10, 2015, 05:33:29 PM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX

If you're a minor you would have to go or you would be violating the 4th commandment. You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating. If it were me I'd pray the rosary or read from my missal.

A parent can command a child to violate the 3rd Commandment? Please explain.
How is sitting in a Catholic church praying while not participating in the blasphemy of the others a violation of the 3rd commandment? He didn't say he was forbidden from going to a Catholic Mass on Sunday.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Francisco Suárez on July 17, 2015, 12:02:19 AM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating.
(my emphasis)

Seeing as a Pope promulgated that Mass, and given that liturgical discipline and Divine Worship fall under the disciplinary infalliblity of the Catholic Church, how can you possibly claim that the Mass is not Catholic, and imply that it is morally illicit to participate?
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Gardener on July 17, 2015, 12:16:28 AM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: Gardener on July 10, 2015, 05:33:29 PM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX

If you're a minor you would have to go or you would be violating the 4th commandment. You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating. If it were me I'd pray the rosary or read from my missal.

A parent can command a child to violate the 3rd Commandment? Please explain.
How is sitting in a Catholic church praying while not participating in the blasphemy of the others a violation of the 3rd commandment? He didn't say he was forbidden from going to a Catholic Mass on Sunday.

If it is not Catholic, he shouldn't be there. If it is not Catholic, it is objectively evil in that it is a mockery of liturgy and does not offer God His due Worship.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: PatienceAndLove on July 17, 2015, 02:41:44 AM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX

Since it's a valid Mass, you should attend and be thankful that your parents love you enough to take you to Mass every Sunday. You receive graces from being there, and should revel in them- be thankful that you are loved and blessed enough to be there to receive them.
Give the priest your undying attention during the Liturgy of the Eucharist because that is Christ up there.
We are called, even in the EF, to participate in the Holy Sacrifice. How are you assisting in the Mass by praying the Rosary or having your nose stuck in your Missal? I'm assuming this would be your EF missal, and not the missal for the OF.
Take yourself out of yourself for a moment, and look at you from your parents' eyes. What good are you doing them by showing them, through ignoring the Mass that they have taken you to, for your love of Christ and His Bride, the Church? You aren't doing any good, and are, in fact, violating a commandment.

Don't fall into the habit of being your own pope.
Love your parents, pray for them, and the Church, everyday.
And thank God that they love you enough to take you to Mass every Sunday, and that you are lucky enough to receive Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist without trials, arguments, or fear.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Elliott on July 17, 2015, 07:22:30 AM
Quote from: Gardener on July 17, 2015, 12:16:28 AM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: Gardener on July 10, 2015, 05:33:29 PM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX

If you're a minor you would have to go or you would be violating the 4th commandment. You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating. If it were me I'd pray the rosary or read from my missal.

A parent can command a child to violate the 3rd Commandment? Please explain.
How is sitting in a Catholic church praying while not participating in the blasphemy of the others a violation of the 3rd commandment? He didn't say he was forbidden from going to a Catholic Mass on Sunday.

If it is not Catholic, he shouldn't be there. If it is not Catholic, it is objectively evil in that it is a mockery of liturgy and does not offer God His due Worship.
I think there is a difference between being present in the church during the sacrilegious mass and participation in it. Would you not go to a NO funeral?
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Elliott on July 17, 2015, 07:29:06 AM
Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 17, 2015, 12:02:19 AM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating.
(my emphasis)

Seeing as a Pope promulgated that Mass, and given that liturgical discipline and Divine Worship fall under the disciplinary infalliblity of the Catholic Church, how can you possibly claim that the Mass is not Catholic, and imply that it is morally illicit to participate?
I'm sure this has been dealt with elsewhere here. I don't care to get into it, that's why I stick to traditional forums. The new mass is the mass of the new religion, if you're content with the new religion why bother with traditionalism?
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: ialsop on July 17, 2015, 09:03:32 AM
Quote from: PatienceAndLove on July 17, 2015, 02:41:44 AM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX

Since it's a valid Mass, you should attend and be thankful that your parents love you enough to take you to Mass every Sunday. You receive graces from being there, and should revel in them- be thankful that you are loved and blessed enough to be there to receive them.
Give the priest your undying attention during the Liturgy of the Eucharist because that is Christ up there.
We are called, even in the EF, to participate in the Holy Sacrifice. How are you assisting in the Mass by praying the Rosary or having your nose stuck in your Missal? I'm assuming this would be your EF missal, and not the missal for the OF.
Take yourself out of yourself for a moment, and look at you from your parents' eyes. What good are you doing them by showing them, through ignoring the Mass that they have taken you to, for your love of Christ and His Bride, the Church? You aren't doing any good, and are, in fact, violating a commandment.

Don't fall into the habit of being your own pope.
Love your parents, pray for them, and the Church, everyday.
And thank God that they love you enough to take you to Mass every Sunday, and that you are lucky enough to receive Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist without trials, arguments, or fear.
Thanks for the excellent answer!! :)
PAX
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Rube on July 17, 2015, 10:43:19 AM
Quote from: PatienceAndLove on July 17, 2015, 02:41:44 AM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.
So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?
Thanks!
PAX
Since it's a valid Mass, you should attend and be thankful that your parents love you enough to take you to Mass every Sunday. You receive graces from being there, and should revel in them- be thankful that you are loved and blessed enough to be there to receive them.
Give the priest your undying attention during the Liturgy of the Eucharist because that is Christ up there.
We are called, even in the EF, to participate in the Holy Sacrifice. How are you assisting in the Mass by praying the Rosary or having your nose stuck in your Missal? I'm assuming this would be your EF missal, and not the missal for the OF.
Take yourself out of yourself for a moment, and look at you from your parents' eyes. What good are you doing them by showing them, through ignoring the Mass that they have taken you to, for your love of Christ and His Bride, the Church? You aren't doing any good, and are, in fact, violating a commandment.
Don't fall into the habit of being your own pope.
Love your parents, pray for them, and the Church, everyday.
And thank God that they love you enough to take you to Mass every Sunday, and that you are lucky enough to receive Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist without trials, arguments, or fear.

Don't be your own pope, but that doesn't exclude the fact that a pope can become a heretic and automatically cease being pope.

St. Bernard believed the final Antichrist would be a false pope in order to be predicted to be so successful in fooling the majority of clergy and laity into apostasy. The Scriptures predict the Catholic with the true faith will be very few.

I can see it now.....all those following the Antichrist pope at that time would easily be throwing out such deceptive arguments as "don't be your own pope....come with us."


Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Arun on July 17, 2015, 05:38:59 PM
Quote from: PatienceAndLove on July 17, 2015, 02:41:44 AM
Quote from: ialsop on July 10, 2015, 03:33:14 PM
I have heard that if your parents require you to attend the Novus Ordo, you should, out of obedience. Even sedevacantists have told me this.

So, do you agree? And how should one go about that? Would you not participate at all? Or actively use traditional devotions? Or participate reverently?

Thanks!
PAX

Since it's a valid Mass, you should attend and be thankful that your parents love you enough to take you to Mass every Sunday. You receive graces from being there, and should revel in them- be thankful that you are loved and blessed enough to be there to receive them.
Give the priest your undying attention during the Liturgy of the Eucharist because that is Christ up there.
We are called, even in the EF, to participate in the Holy Sacrifice. How are you assisting in the Mass by praying the Rosary or having your nose stuck in your Missal? I'm assuming this would be your EF missal, and not the missal for the OF.
Take yourself out of yourself for a moment, and look at you from your parents' eyes. What good are you doing them by showing them, through ignoring the Mass that they have taken you to, for your love of Christ and His Bride, the Church? You aren't doing any good, and are, in fact, violating a commandment.

Don't fall into the habit of being your own pope.
Love your parents, pray for them, and the Church, everyday.
And thank God that they love you enough to take you to Mass every Sunday, and that you are lucky enough to receive Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist without trials, arguments, or fear.

this, while seemingly well meaning, is actually pretty bad advice.

your best option is indeed probably to pray the Rosary during attendance if you cannot avoid attending. pray it in Latin if you can, or learn - it won't take long. you'll be able to fit in at least 15 decades and a few extra prayers, when attending weddings/funerals i've normally selected the extra prayers to fit the occasion but in your case some prayers for the reversion of that parish to Tradition would probably be a good measure. maybe the St Michael's Prayer (the full one) as well.

PatienceandLove, were you aware the faithful are even encouraged to pray the Rosary during the True Mass? it's one, but not the only, devotion one can perform; uniting the mysteries with the Sacrifice. many people do it.

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Arun on July 17, 2015, 05:44:19 PM
ialsop, some of these links might be helpful to you;

http://sspx.org/en/must-catholics-attend-new-mass

http://sspx.org/en/faq-page/what-wrong-novus-ordo-missae-1987

Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 17, 2015, 12:02:19 AM
Quote from: Elliott on July 10, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
You shouldn't participate though because it isn't a Catholic Mass. You shouldn't make a show about not participating.
(my emphasis)

Seeing as a Pope promulgated that Mass, and given that liturgical discipline and Divine Worship fall under the disciplinary infalliblity of the Catholic Church, how can you possibly claim that the Mass is not Catholic, and imply that it is morally illicit to participate?


taken from my second link above:

QuoteDoes it follow from the apparent promulgation by the popes that the Novus Ordo Missae is truly Catholic?

No, for the indefectibility of the Church does not prevent the pope personally from promoting defective and modernist rites in the Latin Rite of the Church. Moreover, the Novus Ordo Missae:

was not properly promulgated (and therefore does not have force of law; cf., [vi] above),
the old Roman Mass (aka, the Tridentine or traditional Latin Mass) was not abolished or superseded in the constitution Missale Romanum, hence in virtue of the of Quo Primum (which de jure [by law] is still the liturgical law and therefore the official Mass of the Roman Rite), it can always be said (principle 19),
and lastly, the constitution Missale Romanum does not engage the Church's infallibility.*
*Let us remember that a pope engages his infallibility not only when teaching on faith or morals (or legislating on what is necessarily connected with them) but when so doing with full pontifical authority and definitively (cf. Vatican I [Denzinger §1839]. But as regards the Novus Ordo Missae, Pope Paul VI has stated (November 19, 1969) that:

...the rite and its related rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition. They are capable of various theological qualifications, depending on the liturgical context to which they relate. They are gestures and terms relating to a lived and living religious action which involves the ineffable mystery of God's presence; it is an action that is not always carried out in the exact same form, an action that only theological analysis can examine and express in doctrinal formulas that are logically satisfying."
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Gardener on July 17, 2015, 06:10:54 PM
The Mass is the unbloody re-presentation of Calvary
The Sorrowful Mysteries focus on the Passion aka Calvary, generally
The method of unification of the soul to Christ in the Mass is primarily prayer (hence, actual participation, not active)
Therefore, praying the Sorrowful Mysteries during Mass is an acceptable form of  participating.

This is entirely acceptable in Pre-Vatican 2 texts.

Where some get confused is when Pope Pius X said to follow with what the priest says, prays, does, and to do those as much as possible is the highest form of praying the Mass. Frankly, many people, myself included, cannot do this.

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Francisco Suárez on July 18, 2015, 08:00:56 AM
QuoteDoes it follow from the apparent promulgation by the popes that the Novus Ordo Missae is truly Catholic?

No, for the indefectibility of the Church does not prevent the pope personally from promoting defective and modernist rites in the Latin Rite of the Church. Moreover, the Novus Ordo Missae:

was not properly promulgated (and therefore does not have force of law; cf., [vi] above),
the old Roman Mass (aka, the Tridentine or traditional Latin Mass) was not abolished or superseded in the constitution Missale Romanum, hence in virtue of the of Quo Primum (which de jure [by law] is still the liturgical law and therefore the official Mass of the Roman Rite), it can always be said (principle 19),
and lastly, the constitution Missale Romanum does not engage the Church's infallibility.*
*Let us remember that a pope engages his infallibility not only when teaching on faith or morals (or legislating on what is necessarily connected with them) but when so doing with full pontifical authority and definitively (cf. Vatican I [Denzinger §1839]. But as regards the Novus Ordo Missae, Pope Paul VI has stated (November 19, 1969) that:

...the rite and its related rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition. They are capable of various theological qualifications, depending on the liturgical context to which they relate. They are gestures and terms relating to a lived and living religious action which involves the ineffable mystery of God's presence; it is an action that is not always carried out in the exact same form, an action that only theological analysis can examine and express in doctrinal formulas that are logically satisfying."
[/quote]

They're just desperately looking for loopholes to avoid logically concluding what should, according to the Church, be impossible.

Basically the Pope, in his official capacity, promulgated a new rite of Mass. This was accepted as fact by all observers at the time. Various reactionary elements in the Church came to see the new rite, over time, as "modernist" and defective. But of course it's impossible to say that if it was properly promulgated by a legitimate authority of the Church. The idea that the Catholic Church can promulgate defective rites or change liturgical and disciplinary laws in an evil direction (making them less Catholic) is ridiculous. There is a reason why the concept of disciplinary infallibility came about, because without it, there's absolutely no guarantee that the Church can properly fulfill its mission. 

This is where the various loopholes come in:

A) it wasn't promulgated "properly". It needed certain "language", or needed to be "explicit" in various ways. Of course these standards, where they are actually objective (the language argument opens a can of worms as language in itself is subjective and evolves over time, affecting meanings in grammar, syntax etc), were never considered essential in history in either secular or canon law. Implicity was acceptable, especially if everyone accepted that that's what it intended. If a previous law said "the penalty of breaking a church window is 10 years gaol", and a new law was promulgated "the penalty of breaking a church window is 15 years gaol", it is assumed that the latter supersedes the former. The two cannot logically exist at the same time. No two Roman Rites can exist at the same time, there is only one. To suggest that the new law is "invalid" because it didn't explicitly abolish the former is ridiculous and looks desperate.

B) the supposed Pope had actually lost his office due to earlier heresy. Essentially sedevacantism. The implications of this position, that there must be some unidentified Bishop still around from Pius XII's reign with ordinary jurisdiction (as without jurisdiction the Church ceases to exist), is also ridiculous, and makes the Church's claim of "visibility" laughable, and prospect of continuity nonexistent.

From memory there are a few others, but I frankly can't be bothered trying to remember them or explain how they work.

But basically, it is impossible to "prove" these things. If you show the logical ridiculousness of a particular argument, they can just retreat further and further into increasingly complex loopholes that protect them from explicit refutation. People can spend their whole lives doing this sort of nonsense. I can't be bothered anymore.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Francisco Suárez on July 18, 2015, 09:07:32 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

This bait is in poor taste, especially coming from an admin.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 09:16:31 AM
Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 18, 2015, 09:07:32 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

This bait is in poor taste, especially coming from an admin.

It's no bait.

Why are you, an apostate, stirring the pot in a Catholic forum? 

To post with an antiCatholic agenda is against the rules here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Francisco Suárez on July 18, 2015, 09:40:22 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 09:16:31 AM
Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 18, 2015, 09:07:32 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

This bait is in poor taste, especially coming from an admin.

It's no bait.

Why are you, an apostate, stirring the pot in a Catholic forum? 

To post with an antiCatholic agenda is against the rules here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Firstly, it wasn't obvious as using the term "apostate" is both inflammatory and inaccurate. No where have I said that I've repudiated Christianity. And secondly, I don't know how broadly you define "stirring the pot", as I've said nothing that's irreconcilable with the Catholic religion in its contemporary existence. Perhaps, in your opinion, defending the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo is in itself "antiCatholic", but nowhere does it say that in the rules.



Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 09:56:22 AM
You say you're a former Catholic in your profile. 

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Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Gardener on July 18, 2015, 09:59:36 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 09:56:22 AM
You say you're a former Catholic in your profile. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

We should always try to be as charitable as possible right?

So perhaps calling him an apostate is too harsh.

Heretic seems properly fitting.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Arun on July 18, 2015, 04:12:34 PM
Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 18, 2015, 09:40:22 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 09:16:31 AM
Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 18, 2015, 09:07:32 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

This bait is in poor taste, especially coming from an admin.

It's no bait.

Why are you, an apostate, stirring the pot in a Catholic forum? 

To post with an antiCatholic agenda is against the rules here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Firstly, it wasn't obvious as using the term "apostate" is both inflammatory and inaccurate. No where have I said that I've repudiated Christianity. And secondly, I don't know how broadly you define "stirring the pot", as I've said nothing that's irreconcilable with the Catholic religion in its contemporary existence. Perhaps, in your opinion, defending the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo is in itself "antiCatholic", but nowhere does it say that in the rules.

its a traditional Catholic forum; your defending/promoting modernism. you also said two Roman Rites cannot exist at the same time, when your saying the NO is the legit Mass, so your denying the legitimacy of the True Mass too aren't you?

why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:22:54 PM
Quote from: Gardener on July 18, 2015, 09:59:36 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 09:56:22 AM
You say you're a former Catholic in your profile. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

We should always try to be as charitable as possible right?

So perhaps calling him an apostate is too harsh.

Heretic seems properly fitting.

I thought it was possible to use "apostate" to denote a rejection of Catholicism. 

I guess I was wrong.

Either way, one wonders why he'd waste his time.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:23:59 PM
Quote from: Arun on July 18, 2015, 04:12:34 PM
why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Because he thinks he's educated and thinks he has something worthwhile to say.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Arun on July 18, 2015, 08:30:15 PM
lol
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Francisco Suárez on July 19, 2015, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: Arun on July 18, 2015, 04:12:34 PM
its a traditional Catholic forum; your defending/promoting modernism. you also said two Roman Rites cannot exist at the same time, when your saying the NO is the legit Mass, so your denying the legitimacy of the True Mass too aren't you?

why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Modernism according to you. The FSSP and its supporters certainly don't think the N.O. is "modernist". Unlike some others here it seems, I'm not scared of following the logic of an argument because I don't like the possible conclusions.

I would lean in the direction of the legitimacy of the N.O. because I think most of the evidence points in this direction. Does that mean the traditional Mass isn't legitimate? I don't know. Superseded, sure. That's the position that Rome took until it came up with a new theory of "ordinary" and "extraordinary" forms of the Latin Rite. Even then, I'm not sure if the current Pope holds to this latter theory.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Francisco Suárez on July 19, 2015, 12:28:35 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:23:59 PM
Quote from: Arun on July 18, 2015, 04:12:34 PM
why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Because he thinks he's educated and thinks he has something worthwhile to say.

I realise you have never liked me, and you've held a grudge against me for some years now, but there comes a time where one has to just move on. I have never made cheap shots against you personally, so I'd ask if you could return the favour. Why not be more charitable?
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Gardener on July 19, 2015, 12:34:29 AM
Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 19, 2015, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: Arun on July 18, 2015, 04:12:34 PM
its a traditional Catholic forum; your defending/promoting modernism. you also said two Roman Rites cannot exist at the same time, when your saying the NO is the legit Mass, so your denying the legitimacy of the True Mass too aren't you?

why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Modernism according to you. The FSSP and its supporters certainly don't think the N.O. is "modernist". Unlike some others here it seems, I'm not scared of following the logic of an argument because I don't like the possible conclusions.

I would lean in the direction of the legitimacy of the N.O. because I think most of the evidence points in this direction. Does that mean the traditional Mass isn't legitimate? I don't know. Superseded, sure. That's the position that Rome took until it came up with a new theory of "ordinary" and "extraordinary" forms of the Latin Rite. Even then, I'm not sure if the current Pope holds to this latter theory.

I'm an FSSP supporter, and I certainly think the NO is modernist, leads to modernism, and has its roots in modernism. And I will not go to it. Presently, I have yet to find this to be an issue, as there are two Fraternity parishes within driving distance, as well as one SSPX parish, etc.

But, were I to ever find myself with the choice of the SSPX, SSPV, etc., or the NO? I'd go to the SSPX, SSPV, etc. I cannot in good conscience go to the NO.

But as you evince in your response, Rome was duplicitous... nay, deceitful. For the novel idea of Ordinary and Extraordinary forms, terms I detest, was fabricated wholesale. They intended to overthrow the timeless liturgy, and when this didn't work (since it wasn't from God), they had to start crab-walking and inventing things.

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Arun on July 19, 2015, 01:25:12 AM
Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 19, 2015, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: Arun on July 18, 2015, 04:12:34 PM
its a traditional Catholic forum; your defending/promoting modernism. you also said two Roman Rites cannot exist at the same time, when your saying the NO is the legit Mass, so your denying the legitimacy of the True Mass too aren't you?

why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Modernism according to you. The FSSP and its supporters certainly don't think the N.O. is "modernist". Unlike some others here it seems, I'm not scared of following the logic of an argument because I don't like the possible conclusions.

I would lean in the direction of the legitimacy of the N.O. because I think most of the evidence points in this direction. Does that mean the traditional Mass isn't legitimate? I don't know. Superseded, sure. That's the position that Rome took until it came up with a new theory of "ordinary" and "extraordinary" forms of the Latin Rite. Even then, I'm not sure if the current Pope holds to this latter theory.

Interesting response, my esteemed erudite trout but you see I've never met an FSSP priest or supporter who disagrees with this position, or supports yours. Perhaps you have; different waters, my friend. But what's more, Senor Haddock, is that there is no basis for your "leaning in the direction of the legitimacy of the NOtard Mess" other than codfishery and pigheaded willing blindness. Why languish in the turgid dark waters of those murky depths of modernism, my dear anchovy, when the only light you can see is emanating from the cuttlefish of innovation and diabolical deception? at best you arise from some of the pitch and murk to swim with the sharks of modernist conciliarism... you will be devoured; perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow... but next Wednesday maybe? who knows... the point is, skimming across the frothing, crested waves and basking in the luminous rays of Truth, the dolphins of Tradition have always been and always will be there to guide you to the shores.

Heed my words, Monsieur Perch, and take care.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Kaesekopf on July 19, 2015, 02:16:37 PM
Quote from: Francisco Suárez on July 19, 2015, 12:28:35 AM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:23:59 PM
Quote from: Arun on July 18, 2015, 04:12:34 PM
why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Because he thinks he's educated and thinks he has something worthwhile to say.

I realise you have never liked me, and you've held a grudge against me for some years now, but there comes a time where one has to just move on. I have never made cheap shots against you personally, so I'd ask if you could return the favour. Why not be more charitable?

A grudge?  Why would I hold a grudge against someone I've never met and haven't talked to in like 2+ years?  :lol:
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on July 19, 2015, 06:57:25 PM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

(Translation: I don't have a good answer for his arguments.)

If you think that Paul VI was the Pope and that the Novus Ordo Missae is somehow intrinsically evil in any respect, then the logical thing to do is exactly what Suarez has done.  People who deny this are, as he has said, desperately searching for loopholes.  If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?


Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Rube on July 19, 2015, 07:03:50 PM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 19, 2015, 06:57:25 PM
If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?

The answer is....the Church said we can discern if a pope becomes a manifest heretic and therefore automatically ceases to be pope, and we immediately act upon in.

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Bonaventure on July 20, 2015, 01:56:10 PM
Quote from: Kaesekopf on July 18, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

One ought to attempt to answer his questions, though. They are probably the root of his apostasy.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on July 21, 2015, 12:20:43 AM
Firstly, good parents want what is best for their children. Usually if children have legitimately sensible reasons for complaining about how the family worships God, they are taken into consideration.

Secondly, "to whom more is given, more is expected". It is not always easy for people to understand the damage that can be inflicted upon the faith by the new mass and it's ever accompanying new theology. The more that one has awareness of what is at stake, the more acceptance they have to avoid attending the new mass. This is essentially a process of conversion.

Thirdly, the question becomes one of whether or not there can be compromise. My own opinion is that to the extent one feels they have no mode of transportation or accessibility to a traditional mass, anglican-use mass or eastern divine liturgy, there can be some reason to accept the new mass as a temporary measure rather than nothing at all.

Generally speaking, for myself, if I attend the new mass, I usually avoid being part of it. I will walk in the beginning of it, remain in either the back or narthex, separate myself for the majority of it, and come up or enter the nave only during the eucharistic anaphora time. I do not generally receive the eucharist, but I suppose I could if in some remote scenario I was required to do so.

In my own experience, if I was presented with the option to choose between the two - I would rather attend a schismatic Orthodox Divine Liturgy than a New Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. As far as I am concerned they are both involved in schism in one way or another. One is a schism of hierachy and ecclesiological theology, the other is a schism with the authentic sacramental theology and God ordained symbolism that the faith in its authentic form offers. Thankfully I do not have to choose between those options.

There is a true value to making compromise when it comes to family and friends. It is impossible for me to not recommend making some level of compromise - at least temporarily - or on occasion - though not necessarily every Sunday.

Although we will leave our Fathers, mothers, friends to follow Christ, it is not easy. God must give us the strength to do this and even than, some level of compromise on rare occasion may still be necessary. You see there is an intimacy of a family sharing unity of faith that is difficult to change. It is difficult to not have mercy on those who have yet to understand the fullness of truth. To that extent, God is merciful on those lay people who participate in compromised protestant influenced liturgies out of ignorance or lack of option. If it is a sin to participate in them, it seems to me a sin which in the short term is venial and only more serious if practiced in the longterm for many years.





Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on July 21, 2015, 09:43:13 PM
Quote from: Rube on July 19, 2015, 07:03:50 PM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 19, 2015, 06:57:25 PM
If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?

The answer is....the Church said we can discern if a pope becomes a manifest heretic and therefore automatically ceases to be pope, and we immediately act upon in.

Oh, it has, really?  Where?  At best maybe some theologians have said this, but not "the Church".
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Rube on July 23, 2015, 05:05:55 PM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 21, 2015, 09:43:13 PM
Quote from: Rube on July 19, 2015, 07:03:50 PM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 19, 2015, 06:57:25 PM
If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?
The answer is....the Church said we can discern if a pope becomes a manifest heretic and therefore automatically ceases to be pope, and we immediately act upon in.
Oh, it has, really? Where? At best maybe some theologians have said this, but not "the Church".

It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on July 25, 2015, 11:53:03 AM
Quote from: Rube on July 23, 2015, 05:05:55 PM

It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

John of St. Thomas.

Now, will you graciously concede defeat here?  Of course not.  You'll merely change the goalposts and either find some other criterion or else tell me why John of St. Thomas doesn't qualify as a "real" theologian.

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Rube on July 25, 2015, 12:33:30 PM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 25, 2015, 11:53:03 AM
Quote from: Rube on July 23, 2015, 05:05:55 PM
It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

John of St. Thomas.

Now, will you graciously concede defeat here? Of course not. You'll merely change the goalposts and either find some other criterion or else tell me why John of St. Thomas doesn't qualify as a "real" theologian.

You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.

What did John of St. Thomas say?  Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Gardener on July 25, 2015, 12:34:41 PM
Quote from: Rube on July 25, 2015, 12:33:30 PM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 25, 2015, 11:53:03 AM
Quote from: Rube on July 23, 2015, 05:05:55 PM
It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

John of St. Thomas.

Now, will you graciously concede defeat here? Of course not. You'll merely change the goalposts and either find some other criterion or else tell me why John of St. Thomas doesn't qualify as a "real" theologian.

You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.

What did John of St. Thomas say?  Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?

If one theologian doesn't make him right, then why did you tell him to find one?

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Rube on July 25, 2015, 01:25:14 PM
Quote from: Gardener on July 25, 2015, 12:34:41 PM
Quote from: Rube on July 25, 2015, 12:33:30 PM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 25, 2015, 11:53:03 AM
Quote from: Rube on July 23, 2015, 05:05:55 PM
It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

John of St. Thomas.

Now, will you graciously concede defeat here? Of course not. You'll merely change the goalposts and either find some other criterion or else tell me why John of St. Thomas doesn't qualify as a "real" theologian.

You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.

What did John of St. Thomas say?  Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?

If one theologian doesn't make him right, then why did you tell him to find one?

Because I don't think there is any, and to show that the burden of proof is in the other direction.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Michael Wilson on July 25, 2015, 05:32:13 PM
Quarem stated:
Quote...If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?

Yes, this is where we all started; but somehow this trust was broken in a significant way that could not longer be justified according to our Catholic faith,  and here we are.
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on July 25, 2015, 07:46:12 PM
Quote from: Rube on July 25, 2015, 12:33:30 PM
You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.

See?  I knew you'd move the goalposts.

QuoteWhat did John of St. Thomas say?  Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?

Yep. Suarez and Cajetan have said the same.  They say the man remains Pope until sentence is passed by the Church (e.g. Council of Cardinals).

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Rube on July 26, 2015, 09:20:36 AM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 25, 2015, 07:46:12 PM
Quote from: Rube on July 25, 2015, 12:33:30 PM
You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.
See? I knew you'd move the goalposts.
QuoteWhat did John of St. Thomas say? Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?
Yep. Suarez and Cajetan have said the same. They say the man remains Pope until sentence is passed by the Church (e.g. Council of Cardinals).

For me to have moved the gold posts, you would have had to first see me say somewhere that one theologian is enough to consider something true. I have never said that, nor thought that.

I know that in the final analysis, we don't keep retaining the opinions of all theologians. I know they have differed, and their differenced made progress towards a solution. That is the way it should be. I know what things have been relinquished from long ago. All the things approved for public lay and clerical consumption show that a pope can automatically become a heretic, and that the laity are capable of discerning and acting upon it immediately; and when the times comes for a new pope to be elected, the Church must make a declaration of fact that the former one already ceased to be pope, and this is done so that all the people who were incapable of discerning it before, are forced to recognize it.

Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on July 26, 2015, 11:47:49 AM
Quote from: Rube on July 26, 2015, 09:20:36 AM
For me to have moved the gold [sic] posts, you would have had to first see me say somewhere that one theologian is enough to consider something true. I have never said that, nor thought that.

You are arguing quite dishonestly as usual, and positing a red herring.  You moved the goal posts from the issue of what is necessary to prove the "default" mentality and practice in the Church, to a claim that one theologian's position is enough to consider something true (which no one here is saying).

What you said was this:

QuoteIt's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

And so I find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary, which therefore disproves your claim about what the default mentality and practice within the Church is.  But you obviously lack the intellectual honesty to admit this.  Instead, you move the goalposts into a discussion about whether what one theologian says is enough to consider something true.

QuoteAll the things approved for public lay and clerical consumption show that a pope can automatically become a heretic, and that the laity are capable of discerning and acting upon it immediately...

So John of St. Thomas, Cajetan, and Suarez are not "approved for public lay and clerical consumption"?

:rofl:
Title: Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
Post by: Rube on July 26, 2015, 02:08:44 PM
Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on July 26, 2015, 11:47:49 AM
Quote from: Rube on July 26, 2015, 09:20:36 AM
For me to have moved the gold [sic] posts, you would have had to first see me say somewhere that one theologian is enough to consider something true. I have never said that, nor thought that.
You are arguing quite dishonestly as usual, and positing a red herring. You moved the goal posts from the issue of what is necessary to prove the "default" mentality and practice in the Church, to a claim that one theologian's position is enough to consider something true (which no one here is saying).
What you said was this:
QuoteIt's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.
And so I find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary, which therefore disproves your claim about what the default mentality and practice within the Church is. But you obviously lack the intellectual honesty to admit this. Instead, you move the goalposts into a discussion about whether what one theologian says is enough to consider something true.
QuoteAll the things approved for public lay and clerical consumption show that a pope can automatically become a heretic, and that the laity are capable of discerning and acting upon it immediately...
So John of St. Thomas, Cajetan, and Suarez are not "approved for public lay and clerical consumption"?
:rofl:

Okay, so now in one message you judge me to be, and to have been, a liar, as well as laugh at me for something you think I said. You are not doing so hot in giving a good example here.

Click on my name and view my posts, and you will see that I have in the past said just what I explained about theologians, and how what some of them have said in the past has not been retained.

I wrote:
QuoteIt's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

I already explained to you that I am saying here that it is that the default practice in the Church is what *I* am saying about judging/acting when perceiving a heretic, and that when I told you to find a theologian, this means the burden of proof is on you. I don't believe there is one, and for you to even begin, you need to find a theologian. This means that I am admitting I don't know it all and might not be aware of some quote, and if you have one, its value is based on what he said, when, and by whom.

I am aware of John of St. Thomas, Cajetan and Suarez. They certainly do have things to say about legally determining a pope as a heretic, which means they say what the Church MUST do legally, and not what the laity CANNOT do "morally". That is what I am asking you to find, the latter.