Last movie you saw?

[Mono no aware]

But a lot of those things had to do with pagan worship as well. There *is* a nuance to such things. Now, booty grinding is different than say... ball room or swing (depending).

What *is* "sensuous" music? Is Alt-country? Indie "rock"? etc?

There's a lot of generality which demands nuance.

In the passages with which I am familiar, none of the Fathers indicated that the dancing and music had any association with pagan worship.  I'm not saying it's not possible to say there's a "nuance," but it does look pretty desperate.  I found a post I made a year ago after I'd found a Catholic site that indexed the Church Fathers according to subject.  I mean, I guess you could argue that a plodding, moribund "Alt-country" song would not really qualify as "sensuous," but finding exceptions wouldn't really excuse most of the music on the music thread.  A lot of that stuff is unquestionably for dancing and bopping and partying.  It's sensuous music.  St. Ambrose's quote is my favorite: "what modesty can there be where there is dancing and noise and clapping of hands?"

[Pheo]

I guess my biggest issue is with the fact that it all has, in effect, come down to the "individual level."  At that point, I don't see how it doesn't end in relativism, with one Catholic reveling in worldliness, saying, "this is all right for me," and another living like a monastic, saying, "this is my preference."  It becomes a sort of a "Choose Your Own Catholicism," and Catholicism turns into a nebulous thing that no one can really pin down, because it changes from person to person.

Well sure...but that's just indicative of the fact that there has been a massive degradation of the spiritual life.  And while that's not good, we were warned that it would happen.  God doesn't make compromises, and His Truth doesn't change.  We have the example of the Saints to guide us along the right path, even if most of the current generation is telling us to just lighten up and 'live a little.'

We're not all called to live like the desert fathers - probably because we aren't called to that degree of merit - but we are called to personal holiness.  And at some point that's going to necessitate total detachment from any created thing.  Most of the pushback that you see when these matters are discussed is simply a manifestation of attachment (I know because I have all sorts of them).  And we either have to purge ourselves of those attachments in this life or pay for them in purgatory.  But either way, they have no place in the level of perfection that we're all called to.

[Gardener]

But a lot of those things had to do with pagan worship as well. There *is* a nuance to such things. Now, booty grinding is different than say... ball room or swing (depending).

What *is* "sensuous" music? Is Alt-country? Indie "rock"? etc?

There's a lot of generality which demands nuance.

In the passages with which I am familiar, none of the Fathers indicated that the dancing and music had any association with pagan worship.  I'm not saying it's not possible to say there's a "nuance," but it does look pretty desperate.  I found a post I made a year ago after I'd found a Catholic site that indexed the Church Fathers according to subject.  I mean, I guess you could argue that a plodding, moribund "Alt-country" song would not really qualify as "sensuous," but finding exceptions wouldn't really excuse most of the music on the music thread.  A lot of that stuff is unquestionably for dancing and bopping and partying.  It's sensuous music.  St. Ambrose's quote is my favorite: "what modesty can there be where there is dancing and noise and clapping of hands?"

Per the post you referenced, the line you took from St. Justin Martyr is entirely about Greek pagan practices, myth, and worship (and the activities which went into it):
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0135.htm

He wasn't talking to Christians or about music in general, but something much more nuanced.

St. Ambrose's line was from his discourse on Salome in a sermon on St. John the Baptist:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/210/2100346.htm

He was talking about Salome's seductive dance for Herod. Not mere dancing as we know it today in any sane context (i.e., not booty dancing). A real strip show, one might conclude.

St. Justin Martyr's line is definitely in the context of pagan practices. St. Ambrose's line is in the context of not Greek or Roman paganism, but the paganism which gripped Herod. The latter charge would be more easily thrown at Catholics, but I dare say not as easily as you might intimate.


ETA: the blog you referenced in the ref. post is: http://practicalapologetics.blogspot.com/p/255-pages-of-early-church-fathers.html

I look forward to reading through it. I've given you a thanks for the source, not cus I agree with your post.

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

I offer Aves and send a big hug, PDR.

I also, like Matto, remember Jerome from another forum.  But he had a different user name there, so in the very short time he was a member of SD, I didn't read too many of his comments, and didn't make the connection that it was him - I just thought he had the same style. 

A few years ago I (and spouse) came to know him well.  He is the finest of traditional Catholic men, hands down. Steadfast in holiness. His temperament is absolutely saintly and unwavering in humility.  What you read of him here, and possibly on the other forum, authentically represents who he is, through and through. He walks the talk, and tirelessly and lovingly works to assist his brothers in the faith, and to convert non Catholics. 

God has placed heavy crosses on his shoulders, but he never complains, only offers thanksgiving and actually quietly rejoices in his suffering.  I've never met anyone like him. 

I pray for him every day, and I am honored to call him friend.

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales

RC, thumbs up or down?  IMDB comments are favorable.

[Maximilian]

A few years ago I (and spouse) came to know him well.  He is the finest of traditional Catholic men, hands down. Steadfast in holiness. His temperament is absolutely saintly and unwavering in humility.  What you read of him here, and possibly on the other forum, authentically represents who he is, through and through. He walks the talk, and tirelessly and lovingly works to assist his brothers in the faith, and to convert non Catholics. 

God has placed heavy crosses on his shoulders, but he never complains, only offers thanksgiving and actually quietly rejoices in his suffering.  I've never met anyone like him. 

I pray for him every day, and I am honored to call him friend.

What a lovely testimonial.

[Maximilian]

A few years ago I (and spouse) came to know him well.  He is the finest of traditional Catholic men, hands down. Steadfast in holiness. His temperament is absolutely saintly and unwavering in humility.  What you read of him here, and possibly on the other forum, authentically represents who he is, through and through. He walks the talk, and tirelessly and lovingly works to assist his brothers in the faith, and to convert non Catholics. 

God has placed heavy crosses on his shoulders, but he never complains, only offers thanksgiving and actually quietly rejoices in his suffering.  I've never met anyone like him. 

I pray for him every day, and I am honored to call him friend.

What does that say about us then, if a person like that was quickly banned from our forum?

[Kaesekopf]

A few years ago I (and spouse) came to know him well.  He is the finest of traditional Catholic men, hands down. Steadfast in holiness. His temperament is absolutely saintly and unwavering in humility.  What you read of him here, and possibly on the other forum, authentically represents who he is, through and through. He walks the talk, and tirelessly and lovingly works to assist his brothers in the faith, and to convert non Catholics. 

God has placed heavy crosses on his shoulders, but he never complains, only offers thanksgiving and actually quietly rejoices in his suffering.  I've never met anyone like him. 

I pray for him every day, and I am honored to call him friend.

What does that say about us then, if a person like that was quickly banned from our forum?

Not sure, except that he needs to learn how to conduct himself better online.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[Mono no aware]

Gardener, I misunderstood you.  When you said the strictures against dancing and sensuous music were declared in the context of "pagan worship," I took it to mean that you thought the "nuance" was that the Church Fathers were only against such music and dancing if they were done as a tribute to some pagan deity, or at a pagan religious festival.

In fact, the links you provided are not nuanced but generalized.  St. Justin's hatred of "flutes that provoke to lustful movements" is put under the heading "Shameless practices of the Greeks."  Surely he didn't mean that these were shameless and vain for the Greeks but okay for Christians.  That would be the most absurd instance of relativism in Christian history.  Shamelessness and vanity are shamelessness and vanity, for pagan or Christian, Gentile or Jew.  He was reviling these practices of the Greeks because he found them abhorrent as a Christian.

The editor of St. Ambrose's sermon even summarizes it as "against dancing" (perhaps he missed the nuance), and the aspects of Salome's dance which St. Ambrose took exception to are not just the "striptease" aspects but the sensuous music and lustful movements as well.  But thank you for the link; this is a terrific phrase: "the reward of the dancer is the death of the prophet."  That's a beautiful aphorism.  Everything is contained within it on worldliness and holiness, the sacred and the profane.  That is the spirit that has gone.  And now we are left only with the letter—the endless parsing out of nuances and justifications; the dead burying their dead.

Incidentally, one of my favorite Sinéad O'Connor songs begins with the lyric, "I'm dancing the seven veils."  It's a real toe-tapper, infectious and sensuous.  There is probably someone out there with the casuistic genius to argue that St. Ambrose would've been fine with it.  But not me.

[Bernadette]

I saw the new Beauty and the Beast. I prefer the old version.

[Mono no aware]

I offer Aves and send a big hug, PDR.

I also, like Matto, remember Jerome from another forum.  But he had a different user name there, so in the very short time he was a member of SD, I didn't read too many of his comments, and didn't make the connection that it was him - I just thought he had the same style. 

A few years ago I (and spouse) came to know him well.  He is the finest of traditional Catholic men, hands down. Steadfast in holiness. His temperament is absolutely saintly and unwavering in humility.  What you read of him here, and possibly on the other forum, authentically represents who he is, through and through. He walks the talk, and tirelessly and lovingly works to assist his brothers in the faith, and to convert non Catholics. 

God has placed heavy crosses on his shoulders, but he never complains, only offers thanksgiving and actually quietly rejoices in his suffering.  I've never met anyone like him. 

I pray for him every day, and I am honored to call him friend.

Thank you, PerEvangelicaDicta.  I agree with Maximilian; that's a lovely testimonial.  I hope it didn't come across in my posts as if I was criticizing him too harshly for his "brusqueness."  It's clear that his online style was borne of a very commendable zeal.

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

I hope it didn't come across in my posts as if I was criticizing him too harshly for his "brusqueness."  It's clear that his online style was borne of a very commendable zeal.

To the contrary, PDR, you offered objective observations and excellent analysis of Jerome's style of address, and of his critics. I thank you for that. It's one of the many reasons I enjoy your contributions.

While I understand that his style of very direct charitable correction is conscience pricking, provoking extreme lash back reactions (I had such a public reaction on another forum with him, which caused me ruthless introspection and an apology to him), in truth, he is correct.

Maximilian, your question moved my heart, since I empathize with his critics as one who fell into that category at one time, in reaction to the nerve he touched.

Kaes did give him a few chances to alter his approach a bit, but knowing Jerome's sense of urgency to save souls, believing time is very short, he cannot.  Although he does not discuss it, I'm convinced he thought 'his own' would receive correction in humility.  It's obvious he's astounded at the worldliness of many traditional Catholics, thus, "commendable zeal" is an excellent description, PDR.   

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

I downloaded Tokyo Story and Diary of a Chambermaid.

Bernadette, would you be so kind as to briefly contrast old and new B&B?  New one is really hyped.  It's hard to trust MSM reviews 

[martin88nyc]

I offer Aves and send a big hug, PDR.

I also, like Matto, remember Jerome from another forum.  But he had a different user name there, so in the very short time he was a member of SD, I didn't read too many of his comments, and didn't make the connection that it was him - I just thought he had the same style. 

A few years ago I (and spouse) came to know him well.  He is the finest of traditional Catholic men, hands down. Steadfast in holiness. His temperament is absolutely saintly and unwavering in humility.  What you read of him here, and possibly on the other forum, authentically represents who he is, through and through. He walks the talk, and tirelessly and lovingly works to assist his brothers in the faith, and to convert non Catholics. 

God has placed heavy crosses on his shoulders, but he never complains, only offers thanksgiving and actually quietly rejoices in his suffering.  I've never met anyone like him. 

I pray for him every day, and I am honored to call him friend.

Thank you, PerEvangelicaDicta.  I agree with Maximilian; that's a lovely testimonial.  I hope it didn't come across in my posts as if I was criticizing him too harshly for his "brusqueness."  It's clear that his online style was borne of a very commendable zeal.

Yes you may think so but some of us here were not really impressed by his"nagging" at everything that in his opinion was sinful. He barely listened to what was said by other members and while being right many times, his charity didn't become a magnet but a deterrent. I cannot read his heart but this was my objective observation at the time and I do wish him well.

[Mono no aware]

I downloaded Tokyo Story and Diary of a Chambermaid.

Okay, but just to reiterate what I told Martin: be sure not to expect a pious entertainment from the latter of those downloads.