Thoughts on the New Joker Movie?

[TheReturnofLive]

If anybody saw it; overall thoughts and impressions?

[Gerard]

I saw it last week.  I thought it was incredibly well-acted.  Very true to the source materials that inspired it.  Interesting psychological study about having "a bad day" and how one person will be corrupted and another won't. 


Spoiler:

Did you think the "joke" at the end was that the entire story was a fantasy?  I took it that he envisioned how Bruce Wayne was now the person who'd lost everything as a result of Arthur's actions.

[TheReturnofLive]

While I interpret that particular line as referring to Bruce Wayne, I'm more convinced that most of the movie is false.

What's confusing is that the movie, to me, seems to suggests that it's somewhat in the middle between reality and falsehood. There are scenes which have noticeably different tones and character interactions throughout the movie.

For example,

SPOILERS:

Before he goes on TV, he's covered his face in white paint, and nothing really further than that; he randomly kills his co-workers while acting incoherently, and looks terrible, with just white paint, random unpredictable movements, can't form speech that well, wears grosser clothes, etc.; when he's in the TV studio in his clown garb, they noticeably ask him why is his face painted like that (instead of asking him about the whole, bright, colorful clown outfit), and when he gets on stage, there's a point in the TV interview where there is a noticeable shift to little reaction from the guests and audience with everything being silent (much like his hallucinations / fantasies), and the TV Host talking with him one on one while bringing up facts that he couldn't possibly know about ("Two Policemen are in critical condition because of you"). Yet, he's still arrested and sent to a mental ward, there is still TV News about Murray's death, which suggests to some degree the event happened.

But the Batman universe makes no sense if that suggestion is true, where at most 50% of the film is false, if the Joker not really a monsterous, articulate villain who is as exaggerated as Batman? The only way the universe would make sense is if most of it was real, or most / none of it was real.

To me, it seems like it's probably the lattermost (because I couldn't fathom the intent of the film director if the previous thing were true), where him being the "Joker" is actually in his mind - there is no Batman, there is no Bruce Wayne, no Thomas Wayne, and most of the movie took place in the Psychiatric Ward after he murdered the three Businessmen. If most of the movie were true, we wouldn't get several clear indicators (his first fantasy of being on the Murray Show, his fantasy at the comedy club, the hallucination of his girlfriend) that we can't trust the narrator.

[Gerard]

Interesting thoughts.  I think the movie is open to a few interpretations. 

You can look at it as an independent film in which the character is literally a new iteration of the Joker.  (He would be in his 50s closing in on 60 by the time Batman is around and kicking.)

You can also look at it as a genuine Joker origin in which you know more than he does.  The director shifts often from Arthur's perspective to the director giving us hints outside of the characters. 

Then, there is the director's choices in which the film makes several choices to illustrate things. 

I took from it that it was mostly true and we the viewers have a higher knowledge than the characters.  Every time Arthur kills someone he winds up stepping into the light and most times engaging in his "dances."   I took that almost like in a case of possession where the demon gets more and more control over the person.  He is never actually at ease when he is himself. He assumes a false character of the "nice guy" that was imposed on him by his abusive mother.  When he assumes the character of "The Joker" he is more and more at home with each murder.  The first kill he is kind of a pathetic clown and the costume is sloppy and incongruent, it's not a part of him.  When he kills more, his motions become more fluid and he continually tightens up, stands more erect, asserts his personality more until you actually get to the Murray Franklin show appearance.  (It reminded me of the old Dick Cavett show where real or possibly rehearsed arguments used to occur.)  Finally, when he's lifted up by the crowd and sees himself being validated as the focal point for pure chaos, he surrenders whatever was left of him and the real Joker is fully born. 

I think if it were all a fantasy, the scene of Bruce in the alley over the bodies of his slain parents would be a bit of a cop out piece of fan service for it to coincidentally be an image solely in the mind of the Joker. It would cheapen the movie a bit. 

I saw an interesting analysis of it from a guy who is an Eastern Orthodox Iconographer and specializes in symbolism.


[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74BbcTs6xs[/yt]