Fact checking Protestant claim about indulgences

Started by GiftOfGod, January 07, 2021, 06:22:22 PM

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GiftOfGod

Some Prottie sent me this and I'd like to prove him wrong. Where did this come from? Is it true? I hope not.


Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.


GiftOfGod

Does anyone know the original source for this information?
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.


Kaesekopf

Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Kaesekopf

#3
I think he'd need to provide a credible contemporary source for this to be taken seriously.

Another good question is why are they in American dollars?  Leo X would've issued a decree probably in a radically different currency. 

Apparently, Prots love to look at Leo X and blame him for indulgences, because he's the one who began building the new St Peter's Basilica. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

GiftOfGod

Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.


Gardener

Is this adjusted for Inflation?

I feel like robbery could be a good investment if it's inflation adjusted.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Michael Wilson

Protestants do not understand the doctrine of Indulgences; so they come up with some pretty stupid arguments against the doctrine. An indulgence is not a forgiveness of a sin; but a remission of the temporal punishment due to sin. So for example, a person who killed someone and wanted to "purchase" and indulgence to cover his temporal punishment (if such were possible), would still be "in hock" for the much more serious "Eternal punishment" of Hell. Also, Indulgences do not work without the person being in the state of grace; so buying an indulgence then murdering somebody doesn't work.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Ragnarok

As we all know, 13th century Europe used American dollars

Ragnarok

#8
"Augustine said prostitutes were necessary and the Church thereafter employed prostitutes"

Why is it that Evangelicals feel like they can misquote something and then make up whatever slanderous shit they want about that misquote, and then morally look down on you for disagreeing with their slander?

Augustine said the government should not try to get rid of prostitutes as they were a better option in the urban areas than sodomy as a result of intemperate people needing to act out their urges. That's a different argument than "Prostitutes are necessary for life"

The Church never "employed" prostitutes other than allowing Crusaders to have them, but that was centuries later and was more of a condolence for going out to the desert to get stabbed by spears

LausTibiChriste

Quote from: Ragnarok on October 19, 2021, 03:29:46 PM
"Augustine said prostitutes were necessary and the Church thereafter employed prostitutes"

Why is it that Evangelicals feel like they can misquote something and then make up whatever slanderous shit they want about that misquote, and then morally look down on you for disagreeing with their slander?

Augustine said the government should not try to get rid of prostitutes as they were a better option in the urban areas than sodomy as a result of intemperate people needing to act out their urges. That's a different argument than "Prostitutes are necessary for life"

The Church never "employed" prostitutes other than allowing Crusaders to have them, but that was centuries later and was more of a condolence for going out to the desert to get stabbed by spears

Crusaders were "allowed" to have prostitutes?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

"Nobody is under any moral obligation of duty or loyalty to a state run by sexual perverts who are trying to destroy public morals."
- MaximGun

"Not trusting your government doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it means you're a history buff"

Communism is as American as Apple Pie

GiftOfGod

Quote from: Ragnarok on October 19, 2021, 03:24:33 PM
As we all know, 13th century Europe used American dollars
In fairness, if he said "50 Quattrino", nobody would know wth that meant.
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.


Ragnarok

#11
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 19, 2021, 03:34:26 PM
Quote from: Ragnarok on October 19, 2021, 03:29:46 PM
"Augustine said prostitutes were necessary and the Church thereafter employed prostitutes"

Why is it that Evangelicals feel like they can misquote something and then make up whatever slanderous shit they want about that misquote, and then morally look down on you for disagreeing with their slander?

Augustine said the government should not try to get rid of prostitutes as they were a better option in the urban areas than sodomy as a result of intemperate people needing to act out their urges. That's a different argument than "Prostitutes are necessary for life"

The Church never "employed" prostitutes other than allowing Crusaders to have them, but that was centuries later and was more of a condolence for going out to the desert to get stabbed by spears

Crusaders were "allowed" to have prostitutes?

In the context of the First Crusade, various historical sources identify groups of serf-class females following the Crusaders with prominent "illicit sexual behavior" happening between the the Crusaders and the women.

Some historians interpret such women as "camp followers", or prostitution services. One of my close friends, who studied Medieval History in college, was personally convinced of that interpretation - although he was biased towards the Left politically.

It might've been the case that such women were just Catholics who saw the Crusade as pretext to leave their domestic lives and got carried away with the soldiers. To the extent the Church was aware of it, they did condemn it somewhat but certainly didn't try to stop it because hey, it's a war.

Either way, it's still way off the mark from the Evangelical claim that the Church employed prostitutes thanks to Saint Augustine.

Prayerful

Quote from: Ragnarok on October 19, 2021, 09:30:10 PM
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 19, 2021, 03:34:26 PM
Quote from: Ragnarok on October 19, 2021, 03:29:46 PM
"Augustine said prostitutes were necessary and the Church thereafter employed prostitutes"

Why is it that Evangelicals feel like they can misquote something and then make up whatever slanderous shit they want about that misquote, and then morally look down on you for disagreeing with their slander?

Augustine said the government should not try to get rid of prostitutes as they were a better option in the urban areas than sodomy as a result of intemperate people needing to act out their urges. That's a different argument than "Prostitutes are necessary for life"

The Church never "employed" prostitutes other than allowing Crusaders to have them, but that was centuries later and was more of a condolence for going out to the desert to get stabbed by spears

Crusaders were "allowed" to have prostitutes?

In the context of the First Crusade, various historical sources identify groups of serf-class females following the Crusaders with prominent "illicit sexual behavior" happening between the the Crusaders and the women.

Some historians interpret such women as "camp followers", or prostitution services. One of my close friends, who studied Medieval History in college, was personally convinced of that interpretation - although he was biased towards the Left politically.

It might've been the case that such women were just Catholics who saw the Crusade as pretext to leave their domestic lives and got carried away with the soldiers. To the extent the Church was aware of it, they did condemn it somewhat but certainly didn't try to stop it because hey, it's a war.

Either way, it's still way off the mark from the Evangelical claim that the Church employed prostitutes thanks to Saint Augustine.

The Vicar Apostolic would still have collected tax from them, well those in Rome, for one of the real highlights of a young gentleman's Grand Tour, perhaps preceded by a high speed coach between the notable sites with a cheat sheet, were these woman negotiable virtue.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

james03

For Prots, the cost is zero.  Just say the non-biblical altar call prayer and do everything on the list.  Once Saved Always Saved baby.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Tennessean

Yeah, you can't go to hell for sinning, unless you "sin against the Holy Spirit," which nobody can identify so you just better not sin at all anyway lol