Consecration Possible Outside Mass ?

[Jmartyr]

Interesting topic of discussion between AKA Catholic and One Peter 5 bloggers.
https://onepeterfive.com/the-novus-ordo-paradigm-what-it-is-and-why-it-matters/
https://akacatholic.com/skojec-major-correction/
https://akacatholic.com/consecration-outside-of-mass/
https://akacatholic.com/sspx-fumbles-consecration-question/

[Philip G.]

The sspx recently put out an article about the priest who attempts to consecrate all of the bread at the bakery.  All I know is that I would not let that bread go to waste.  I would slap some butter on those bad boys and chow down with the poor.  Do I agree with the sspx?  No.  It is simply a crafty way to create alms. 

[Philip G.]

I guess we should not be surprised by this consecrational fantasy of the sspx/TLM priest, as the sspx seemingly believes that one of the two ends(a modern novelty) of the priesthood is the consecration of the Eucharist(the other being their personal sanctity), as opposed to the traditional single end of governance according to the council of Florence.   

It is so interesting that the council specifically states that Baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, penance, and extreme unction are "ordained for the spiritual perfection of each and every one in himself" to the exclusion of orders and matrimony.   

[Jmartyr]

Most people think , me too until I read these links, a priest can say the words of consecration in any situation and be valid.

[mikemac]

Verrecchio goes further than the argument of Consecration outside of the Mass.

... The Novus Ordo, even when carried out by the book, is subject to doubt as to whether it may be devoid of supernatural character having become nothing more than an act of natural religion.

When this takes place, there is no Mass, and when there is no Mass, there is no consecration of the Blessed Sacrament.

Ironically, it only served to undermine the very point he wished to make, confirming in their error those who are hyper-focused on the idea that Jesus is made present on the altar no matter how evil the rite may be; even if it should cease to be the Mass at all.

So is Louie Verrecchio sending to hell every Catholic from 1970 to the Summorum Pontificum of 2007 plus every Catholic that still does not have access to the Traditional Latin Mass?  Sounds like it.

[St.Justin]

Those links to aka catholic are a joke. The man has no idea what he is talking about. Lord have mercy on his soul. If matter form and intention are present the Sacrament is valid. It might be illicit and and or sacrilegious but it is Valid. I have to laugh when he tries to but words in the mouths of St. Thomas and Canon Hesse. His position to put it mildly is not Catholic.

[Jmartyr]

Can there be a consecration outside of mass, or to do "what the Church does" means confect the sacrament within the confines of mass?

[St.Justin]

Can there be a consecration outside of mass, or to do "what the Church does" means confect the sacrament within the confines of mass?

What the Church does is change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord. Where that takes place has nothing to do with the validity of the Consecration.

[aquinas138]

Can there be a consecration outside of mass, or to do "what the Church does" means confect the sacrament within the confines of mass?

I think consecration outside of Mass is of doubtful validity, maybe not certainly invalid. I think it has to be doubtful in part because the intention is not clear. We are morally certain the Eucharist is confected and the sacrifice offered because when a priest uses the formularies of the Roman Missal (or the Eastern equivalents), we are morally certain that he has the intention of doing what the Church does. A priest attempting to consecrate outside of Mass has an uncertain intention and by sacrilegiously attempting consecration outside Mass is not acting in persona Christi.

[St.Justin]

Can there be a consecration outside of mass, or to do "what the Church does" means confect the sacrament within the confines of mass?

I think consecration outside of Mass is of doubtful validity, maybe not certainly invalid. I think it has to be doubtful in part because the intention is not clear. We are morally certain the Eucharist is confected and the sacrifice offered because when a priest uses the formularies of the Roman Missal (or the Eastern equivalents), we are morally certain that he has the intention of doing what the Church does. A priest attempting to consecrate outside of Mass has an uncertain intention and by sacrilegiously attempting consecration outside Mass is not acting in persona Christi.

Whenever a Priest is confecting a Sacrament he is acting in persona Christi.

[aquinas138]

Can there be a consecration outside of mass, or to do "what the Church does" means confect the sacrament within the confines of mass?

I think consecration outside of Mass is of doubtful validity, maybe not certainly invalid. I think it has to be doubtful in part because the intention is not clear. We are morally certain the Eucharist is confected and the sacrifice offered because when a priest uses the formularies of the Roman Missal (or the Eastern equivalents), we are morally certain that he has the intention of doing what the Church does. A priest attempting to consecrate outside of Mass has an uncertain intention and by sacrilegiously attempting consecration outside Mass is not acting in persona Christi.

Whenever a Priest is confecting a Sacrament he is acting in persona Christi.

I agree that a priest actually confecting the Sacrament is so acting; however, I am saying that a priest attempting to confect the Sacrament outside of Mass is NOT acting in persona Christi, and thus his attempt is (probably) invalid. I am not a sede, but Novus Ordo Watch actually collected a few quotes from theologians and canonists on this topic; the most relevant for this point is:

To consecrate outside the Mass would not only be a sacrilege, but probably also an attempt at invalid consecration. The priest would certainly not perform that action in the person of Christ, nor according to the intention of the Church, which is restricted to the celebration of the Mass.

[Jmartyr]

Can there be a consecration outside of mass, or to do "what the Church does" means confect the sacrament within the confines of mass?

I think consecration outside of Mass is of doubtful validity, maybe not certainly invalid. I think it has to be doubtful in part because the intention is not clear. We are morally certain the Eucharist is confected and the sacrifice offered because when a priest uses the formularies of the Roman Missal (or the Eastern equivalents), we are morally certain that he has the intention of doing what the Church does. A priest attempting to consecrate outside of Mass has an uncertain intention and by sacrilegiously attempting consecration outside Mass is not acting in persona Christi.

Agreed, which is why Louie V quoted Father Hesse  concerning the condemned proposition about the safer course should be followed when dealing with the validity of sacraments.

[Jmartyr]

"In conferring the Sacraments, as also in the consecration in Mass, it is never allowed to adopt a probable course of action as to validity and to abandon the safer course. The contrary was explicitly condemned by Pope Innocent XI [1670-1676].

[St.Justin]

Can there be a consecration outside of mass, or to do "what the Church does" means confect the sacrament within the confines of mass?

I think consecration outside of Mass is of doubtful validity, maybe not certainly invalid. I think it has to be doubtful in part because the intention is not clear. We are morally certain the Eucharist is confected and the sacrifice offered because when a priest uses the formularies of the Roman Missal (or the Eastern equivalents), we are morally certain that he has the intention of doing what the Church does. A priest attempting to consecrate outside of Mass has an uncertain intention and by sacrilegiously attempting consecration outside Mass is not acting in persona Christi.

Agreed, which is why Louie V quoted Father Hesse  concerning the condemned proposition about the safer course should be followed when dealing with the validity of sacraments.

He used what they said incorrectly.

[St.Justin]

"In conferring the Sacraments, as also in the consecration in Mass, it is never allowed to adopt a probable course of action as to validity and to abandon the safer course. The contrary was explicitly condemned by Pope Innocent XI [1670-1676].

So St. Maximilian Kolbe's Consecrations in the concentration camp were invalid???? Give me a break.