Aborted babies & baptism of blood

Geremia · February 05, 2019, 05:39:26 PM

Fr. Francis O'Connell, C.Ss.R., Outlines of Moral Theology (1953), as quoted on the last page of Conlon's Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire:

QuoteBaptism of Desire ... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition... These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood & Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament... Even an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith...

Geremia · February 07, 2019, 02:22:55 PM

Pope Benedict XIV Doctrina de servorum Dei beatificatione et beatorum canonizatione lib. 3 cap. 15 "De requisitis in martyre necessariis ante martyrium":

QuoteMartyrium dicitur baptismus sanguinis Marc. 10. In adultis est actus fortitudinis, et caritatis : quoad infantes, sufficit occisos fuisse ex odio in Christum, ut martyrium suppleat vices baptismi aquæ, deleatque ex opere operato peccatum originale quoad culpam, et poenam, ut docet S. Thomas (2, 2, qu. 124, art. 1 ad 1)

What constitutes killing out of hatred of Christ (ex odio in Christum) is not as restrictive as some may think. As Billot, S.J. (De ecclesiæ sacramentis t. 1 p. 242) mentions, a "formal hatred of Christ and His religion" is not necessary, as some emperors who martyred did so only out of motives of ignorance of Christianity, upholding civil law, or public opinion; however, they did target Christians specifically.

Cdl. Cajetan, O.P., in his commentary on III q. 68 a. 11 ("Whether a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb?") is even more explicit, saying that even in utero infants can be martyrs like the Holy Innocents:

QuoteSi enim propter Christum infans in utero occideretur, martyr esset, non minus quam Innocentes.

Geremia · February 07, 2019, 02:59:08 PM

Cdl. Cajetan, O.P. (quoted above) writes that "parvulos in maternis uteris periclitantes posse salvari" ("children in peril in the mother's womb can be saved"):

Quote from: Cdl. Cajetan, O.P.Posse autem salvari dico per sacramentum baptismi, non in re, sed in voto parentum susceptum, cum aliqua benedictione prolis seu oblatione ipsius ad Deum, cum invocatione Trinitatis.
[I say the child can be saved by the sacrament of baptism, not in re, but received in voto of the parents, with some blessing of the child or offering him to God, invoking the Trinity.]

(1917 Code of Canon law cans. 746-748 is along the same spirit.)
In support of this, he gives two arguments: (1) God's mercy provides for man in any state he may be in, and (2) since they can be martyred (baptized by blood), it is reasonable that the parents' will can also bring them to the same end.

Geremia · February 09, 2019, 05:28:55 PM

St. Robert on how martyrdom justifies:
De Sacramento Baptismi p. 166, first full ¶:

Quote from: St. Robert BellarmineSome [who argue martyrdom alone cannot justify] respond that the Innocents were circumcised, hence justified before martyrdom. But this is not so. For it is uncertain whether they were all circumcised; nay, it is very probable and almost certain not all were circumcised. For Herod killed all the children who were in Bethlehem and its environs; he did not command only the children of Jews but utterly all be killed: and perhaps not a few Gentiles were among them. Moreover, he ordered that all infants two years and younger be killed, hence even those who were not yet 8 days old, who alone can be circumcised. Still, it is not de fide that circumcision justifies, and yet the Church certainly believes that absolutely all those infants are saved. Further, the Church not only believes the Innocents are saved but even honors them as martyrs; therefore, suffering for Christ conveys something to them ex opere operato. Nor is Scotus's argument that this is a privilege of children count: for it is asserted without any grounds. For if martyrdom profits infants ex opere operato, why not adults? Certainly the martyrdom of adults is no less powerful and efficacious than of infants; rather, it is more powerful, more noble, and more efficacious.

Guapo · February 11, 2019, 11:01:19 AM

A Moral Theologian renowned for his sanctity believed aborted babies do indeed go to Heaven under circumstances such as Abortion Mill run by Satanists which most covers most Mills.There is a
book that discussed this subject published in the 90s not well known but worth looking into. However what is being discussed in Virginia and NY is infanticide which is clearly demonic.

Eating an aborted fetus? Much Truth is said in jest.
https://twitter.com/SarahKSilverman/status/962925457753628672

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2018/02/06/sarah-silverman-pro-life-law-has-made-me-want-to-eat-an-aborted-fetus/

https://www.christianpost.com/voice/abortion-is-satanic-worship.html

Kreuzritter · February 11, 2019, 11:18:06 AM

"Baptism of blood" makes sense, for in dying, effectively, as a human sacrifice for the sake of God, one could be sharing in the Crucifixion and blood of Jesus in an intimate way.

Guapo · February 11, 2019, 11:26:06 AM

The same Moral Theologian speculated that the reason that the Most Holy Trinity allowed such massive numbers of babies to be aborted in wicked times is because so many adult souls go to Hell.
Thus the Devil can not brag that the majority of souls go to Hell in wicked times as ours because clearly the massive numbers of aborted babies are indeed saved. The Devil ultimately loses
in this respect.

mikemac · February 12, 2019, 12:56:11 PM

Quote from: Guapo on February 11, 2019, 11:01:19 AM
A Moral Theologian renowned for his sanctity believed aborted babies do indeed go to Heaven under circumstances such as Abortion Mill run by Satanists which most covers most Mills.There is a
book that discussed this subject published in the 90s not well known but worth looking into. However what is being discussed in Virginia and NY is infanticide which is clearly demonic.

Eating an aborted fetus? Much Truth is said in jest.
https://twitter.com/SarahKSilverman/status/962925457753628672

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2018/02/06/sarah-silverman-pro-life-law-has-made-me-want-to-eat-an-aborted-fetus/

https://www.christianpost.com/voice/abortion-is-satanic-worship.html

Sarah Silverman is thoroughly disgusting.

Geremia · February 19, 2019, 10:25:33 AM

Quote from: Guapo on February 11, 2019, 11:01:19 AMwhat is being discussed in Virginia and NY is infanticide which is clearly demonic.

Abortion is infanticide; it all "is clearly demonic".

Gerard · February 19, 2019, 06:49:52 PM

Abortionists use this idea to justify their murder. If you're sending them to Heaven, what could be better? They don't even get the chance to lose Heaven by gambling on a life on Earth.

TheReturnofLive · February 19, 2019, 07:34:30 PM

Quote from: Gerard on February 19, 2019, 06:49:52 PM
Abortionists use this idea to justify their murder. If you're sending them to Heaven, what could be better? They don't even get the chance to lose Heaven by gambling on a life on Earth.

It may be "a" justification, but considering most Abortionists follow a philosophy of life whose underpinnings are largely atheistic and - I would say - at least Epicurean if not Hedonistic, and such an argument is honestly really weak and pathetic when one immediately changes the scenario to a person murdering a Holy Priest because he disagrees with them ideologically, I don't see this argument used very often.

Most arguments I've heard are an absurdly flawed Utilitarian argument - and the still flawed but more plausible Violinist argument.

spasiisochrani · February 19, 2019, 07:45:27 PM

Well, we just don't know, do we?

Many years ago, there was a small pamphlet written by the late Byzantine-Russian rite priest, Fr. John Ryder, S.J., entitled The Twice Unborn, which set forth copious patristic support for the idea that these children are in hell. I seem to recall that the pamphlet was sold by the Remnant Press.

All we can do is trust God and hope for the best.

Guapo · February 20, 2019, 11:10:57 AM

Quote from: Geremia on February 19, 2019, 10:25:33 AM
Quote from: Guapo on February 11, 2019, 11:01:19 AMwhat is being discussed in Virginia and NY is infanticide which is clearly demonic.
Abortion is infanticide; it all "is clearly demonic".

Yes of course. Pressed for time, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.

Guapo · February 20, 2019, 11:12:14 AM

Quote from: mikemac on February 12, 2019, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: Guapo on February 11, 2019, 11:01:19 AM
A Moral Theologian renowned for his sanctity believed aborted babies do indeed go to Heaven under circumstances such as Abortion Mill run by Satanists which most covers most Mills.There is a
book that discussed this subject published in the 90s not well known but worth looking into. However what is being discussed in Virginia and NY is infanticide which is clearly demonic.

Eating an aborted fetus? Much Truth is said in jest.
https://twitter.com/SarahKSilverman/status/962925457753628672

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2018/02/06/sarah-silverman-pro-life-law-has-made-me-want-to-eat-an-aborted-fetus/

https://www.christianpost.com/voice/abortion-is-satanic-worship.html

Sarah Silverman is thoroughly disgusting.

Her original YouTube video has been deleted.

Prayerful · February 22, 2019, 04:18:31 PM

Quote from: spasiisochrani on February 19, 2019, 07:45:27 PM
Well, we just don't know, do we?

Many years ago, there was a small pamphlet written by the late Byzantine-Russian rite priest, Fr. John Ryder, S.J., entitled The Twice Unborn, which set forth copious patristic support for the idea that these children are in hell. I seem to recall that the pamphlet was sold by the Remnant Press.

All we can do is trust God and hope for the best.

Limbo would seem a likely destination. The figurative image, this speculation of 'baptism of blood' does not.