Accepting Apology

Started by Heinrich, January 20, 2023, 08:15:07 PM

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Heinrich

What are the moral guidelines in regards to accepting another's apologies? I understand forgiving 7 x 70; however, trust. If it is legitimately an issue, can we be obligated to believe and be compelled to accept an apology?
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

Michael Wilson

We have to accept a sincere apology; we don't have to take the person back into the former confidence that we had with them, before the offense was committed.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

diaduit

Quote from: Michael Wilson on January 20, 2023, 08:21:05 PMWe have to accept a sincere apology; we don't have to take the person back into the former confidence that we had with them, before the offense was committed.

I did not know that.  That's a relief.

Baylee

Quote from: Michael Wilson on January 20, 2023, 08:21:05 PMWe have to accept a sincere apology; we don't have to take the person back into the former confidence that we had with them, before the offense was committed.

And how does one know it is "sincere"?

Michael Wilson

One cannot be 100% certain; but if they admit to the wrong that they did; and they make a real attempt to make things right again. One can be at least morally certain. Also if they avoid giving offense again.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Miriam_M

Quote from: Baylee on January 21, 2023, 08:06:51 AM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on January 20, 2023, 08:21:05 PMWe have to accept a sincere apology; we don't have to take the person back into the former confidence that we had with them, before the offense was committed.

And how does one know it is "sincere"?

A Catholic must assume it is sincere and not question legitimacy, motives, etc. because we cannot read the hearts of others.  That said, we also cannot delete our natures, including our memories and experiences, which is why Michael said what he said.  A day, week, year, or lifetime of injuries by the other can affect the level of enthusiasm by which we re-establish a relationship or agree to.

IOW, self-defense works both ways:  The apologizer, depending on his or her level of regret, humility, and facility communicating all of that, might fall short on his or her own degree of expressed remorse.  (He may feel it to a far greater degree than he is able to express it.)  Perhaps he made a great sacramental confession about it, but his apology to the offended one outside of the confessional does not come close. 

Second direction:  We may interiorly, spiritually, fully accept the apology, but the reality of a fractured relationship remains.  (I think a good example is what can happen in a marriage during a particular phase or even after a significant argument; the repair may be at first imperfect and gradual rather than instant like supernatural grace.)

I have a situation right now in my life that corresponds to what Michael's post said.  She was such a spiritually and emotionally intimate friend of mine, yet suddenly --for reasons probably not having to do with me but with situations surrounding her previous friendship with me-- abandoned me and stopped all communication.  Recently, she sent me what I consider to be a patronizing message to kind of "cover" for her silence.  I was even further offended; I wished that she had continued the silence.

Were she to want to resume a regular friendship with me, I would agree to -- even outside of any apology on her part.  With or without an apology, though, I would regard her friendship tentatively and the level of intimacy, at least initially, would hardly be what it was before.

There have been many situations in my life when an apology was much more demonstrated than verbalized.  I.m.o., these are the best apologies, and I would never, ever demand that anyone verbally apologize to me for an offense instead of showing me regret.  First of all, regret that is acted on is obviously a sign of genuine self-awareness and self-accusation.  Second, many people do not apologize well.  They may be far more ashamed than they can find the words for, etc.  They may not be very good with words, etc.

Greg

If they bow down and kiss my feet I tend to do it.

But sincere apologies are very rare.

I find most people who say sorry are not sorry.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

awkward customer

#7
Is accepting an apology the same as forgiving?  And what does it mean to accept an apology other than politely acknowledging it?

Back in the day, the advice was always to 'forgive and forget,  as I remember.  But this always based on the perpetrator changing their behaviour.    'Say you're sorry and promise not to do whatever it was again' was always the prerequisite to 'forgiving and forgetting'.  And I thought that when God forgives, He also forgets, so when a sin is confessed and penance is complete, God forgets the sin.

But if the  person is insincere and just wants to be let off the hook, what then?  I wouldn't refuse to politely acknowledge an apology, because there's a chance it could be sincere.  The way to tell is if the person continues with the behaviour that caused the harm and makes no attempt to change it.  If a psychopath apologises, you can be certain that the apology is not sincere because psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists never change.  They see no reason to.

So I think that accepting an apology is not necessarily the same as forgiveness. Forgiveness takes time and needs some kind of indication that the person involved is sorry enough to attempt to amend the behaviour which caused the offence. 

 


Heinrich

You say that psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists never change. Can you expand on this? Maybe that is the character of the person I am dealing with. I would think that God's Grace could penetrate the most hardened hearts.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

awkward customer

#9
Quote from: Heinrich on January 28, 2023, 03:37:44 PMYou say that psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists never change. Can you expand on this? Maybe that is the character of the person I am dealing with. I would think that God's Grace could penetrate the most hardened hearts.

But God's doesn't force His Grace onto anyone and there are people who wilfully refuse it.  They choose malice because they like it.  It makes them feel powerful and they enjoy the distress they cause in others.  Studies have shown that observing the suffering of human beings gives some people a dopamine hit, suggesting that they take pleasure in the spectacle.

A lot of what passes for 'forgiveness' these days is mostly about letting psychopaths and other Cluster Bs off the hook.  If you think you may be dealing with someone who has malicious traits then there's a ton of information about this online.  Just go to Youtube.

But what are you picking up from this person, generally speaking?  A pattern of behaviour that repeats over time?  Does this person lie without blinking, stir up trouble behind your back, treat you as a resource to be used, point out your faults non-stop, undermine you at every opportunity especially in public, steal without thinking twice, put on one face in public and a very different face in private etc etc.

If you think you may be dealing with such a person, and are wondering whether to accept their apology, then maybe you should look into it.  One of the essential characteristics of people with Cluster B personality disorders psychopaths, narcissists, histrionics and borderlines - is that they cannot be treated because they're not mentally ill.  They have personality disorders!! 

It seems that neither God nor modern psychiatry can penetrate a truly hardened heart.

TradGranny

Quote from: Greg on January 28, 2023, 08:39:30 AMIf they bow down and kiss my feet I tend to do it.

But sincere apologies are very rare.

I find most people who say sorry are not sorry.

Yes. You can usually tell those people because they say "I'm sorry YOU FEEL that way." This implies that the problem is not their behavior, but your feelings.
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila

diaduit

If I hear an apology like this, which has happened twice, I say to the person you cannot apologise for my feelings, they are not yours to apologise for but you can apologise for your own actions which caused me to feel this way.  Oh the squirming and word play that follows is actually quite amusing especially with a narcissist.

Michael Wilson

I have found over time that one of the best remedies for a problem with a person who is troublesome, is to pray for their conversion and salvation. It helps to alleviate the harm and bother that they cause us, and at times it helps to reconcile them or even get them out of one's life.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

awkward customer

According to Luke 17:3 -

QuoteTake heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him.

Modern ideas about forgiveness prefer to omit the necessity of penance.  Forgiveness should be unconditional, people insist.  The duty to forgive is emphasised while the necessity of penance is ignored, especially from the NO pulpit. 

Penance implies contrition, a desire to change the troublesome behaviours, and the willingness to satisfy the demands of Divine Justice.  In a narcissistic age like this, such concepts are alien, hence the demands for unconditional forgiveness and the accusations of a lack of charity on the part of those who won't comply.



Baylee

My father always said that apologies are not qualified.  In other words, when you say you're sorry, it's "I'm sorry".  Not "I'm sorry, but.....".