Why Accept the authority of the Gospels?

Started by Michael Wilson, December 04, 2022, 05:01:50 PM

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Michael Wilson

Quote from: AlNg on December 14, 2022, 07:10:38 PM
So by the response it is certain that the Holy Spirit and the Son know the day and the hour?
Quote from: truly-a-philosofan on December 10, 2022, 03:03:36 AM
Anyone who says that Sacred Scripture has an errant passage is certainly a heretic,
Why then would that not be an errant passage in Scripture where it says that only the Father knows the day and the hour?
It was not given to Our Divine Savior to reveal all the secrets of the Divine decrees; He knows the day and the hour, but not as our teacher.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Quote from: Julio on December 14, 2022, 11:21:42 PM
^^Does that mean that when the Son died, God was also dead?
The Son died in His human nature; He could not suffer or die as God.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Julio

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 15, 2022, 12:48:27 PM
The Son died in His human nature; He could not suffer or die as God.
Precisely the point. For whatever reason it was stated as such that only the, "Father knows the day and hour," it does not make it an error at all because all are ordered towards God for the Holy Trinity is God.

Julio

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 15, 2022, 12:47:26 PM

It was not given to Our Divine Savior to reveal all the secrets of the Divine decrees; He knows the day and the hour, but not as our teacher.
I say, that is the mystery of God. It is of God.

AlNg

Quote from: Julio on December 15, 2022, 01:35:47 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 15, 2022, 12:48:27 PM
The Son died in His human nature; He could not suffer or die as God.
Precisely the point. For whatever reason it was stated as such that only the, "Father knows the day and hour," it does not make it an error at all because all are ordered towards God for the Holy Trinity is God.


It is really pretty simple. The Holy Spirit knows the day and the hour. So it is an error to imply that the Holy Spirit does not know the day and the hour.

Michael Wilson

Quote from: AlNg on December 16, 2022, 05:12:10 AM
Quote from: Julio on December 15, 2022, 01:35:47 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 15, 2022, 12:48:27 PM
The Son died in His human nature; He could not suffer or die as God.
Precisely the point. For whatever reason it was stated as such that only the, "Father knows the day and hour," it does not make it an error at all because all are ordered towards God for the Holy Trinity is God.
It is really pretty simple. The Holy Spirit knows the day and the hour. So it is an error to imply that the Holy Spirit does not know the day and the hour.
What is common to one person in the Blessed Trinity is common to all, except in their relations: The Father proceeds from none; the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Ghost proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Aethel

#21
Popping in here - prooftexting ancient religious collections to fish for contradictions based on select quotes is really low intellectual, least common denominator garbage. It doesn't prove anything because the texts only exist to explain the theology of the religion, and as such, finding select quotes of that text to argue against the religion's theology will always lead to the counter claim of "hey you are an outsider who is misinterpreting our texts", leading to nobody actually knowing the "one true meaning" of the text. It's garbage anybody can do just due to the sheer volume of the texts. It also doesn't actually address the substantive claims of the religion. I could go through Buddhist Pali Suttas and do the same thing to show that the Buddha inconsistently cling onto the caste system in some places while vilifying it in another, but Buddhist monks would scold me because I'm ignoring the religion's theology.

You should go more macro level and see that Islam is a nonsensical mish-mash of Christianity and Judaism. The Quran even has a direct quote lifted from the Talmud, a post-Christ Jewish (and explicitly anti-Christ) text - Surah 5:32. Islam also lifts from Docetism which makes no sense if Jesus wasn't God incarnate - and one has to ask, if the life of Jesus is one of rebellion against Jewish legal rules because the law was void, why does Islam still enforce Jewish Old Testament law? And let's not even get started on the nonsense of the uncreated Quran - is the Quran part of God if it was uncreated? Is it God?

I have issues with Christianity's own internal inconsistencies too, and I admit i am no unbiased party - but if we are going to look at the claims of the religion, it's pretty clear Catholicism is a preferable alternative to Islam.

By all means look at Islam and study it, but don't fall for garbage Evangelical tier apologetics.

Aethel

There's also a much simpler approach here too:

Which god do you want to follow? Jesus or Allah?

What's more important than epistemological certainty is your conception of the highest ideal good (God) and orienting your life to achieve Union with that. And only your soul can answer the question of what deity is a better conception of goodness.

Michael Wilson

#23
Islam holds that it is a blasphemy to posit that one can have a loving personal relationship with God. The Catholic view is that God wants to enter into this loving, personal and intimate relationship, initially through Sanctifying Grace and ultimately in the vision "face to face", in which we not only know God as He knows Himself, but we possess and mutually embrace, God and man in the eternity of Heaven.
Islam proposes to it male followers a carnal bacchanalia, reminiscent of the Gnostic Millenarist, Cerinthius:
https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/thompson/paradise.html
QuoteAt-Tirmizi, vol. 2, states on page 138:

    The Prophet Muhammad said "Every man who enters paradise shall be given 72 (seventy-two) houris; no matter at what age he had died, when he is admitted into paradise, he will become a thirty-year-old, and shall not age any further. A man in paradise shall be given virility equal to that of one hundred men".

    "gardens and vineyards; and girls with swelling breasts of the same age as themselves, and a brimming cup;" S. 78:32-34 Palmer
Very interesting site, in it the author cites the Quran in which (supposedly) God said that one could find Mohamed in the Torah and in the Gospels:
QuoteNow, if we can establish that Muhammad claimed that Allah took responsibility for the New Testament that Christians read today, we prove that Allah is not the God of Moses, Abraham, and the apostles. For if Allah passed down the previous revelations, one would expect to see the same promises of an established afterlife. We wouldn't expect the previous revelations to negate and forfit the possibility of the Quranic promises. Just as the Bible denies marriage in heaven and thus sex and wives. And just as the Bible says nothing of virgins, sex and carnal desires in Heaven. Muhamamd refuted his own religion and exposed his own god as false by claiming that the Christian Scriptures of the 7th century was genuine and from God. For we know what Christians and Jews were reading in the 7th century. It was the Bible that we have today. This is a fact of History which I will seek to demonstrate.

In 7:157 of the Quran Muhammad stated:

    "Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them..." S. 7:157 Pickthall

This verse is very crucial. Muhammad claimed that Allah said you can find Muhammad in the Torah and Gospel that is with them. Meaning people in the 7th century had records from God in their hands that were good enough to salvage prophecy from. For how could prophecy be in any book that was not from God? The Gospel that was with the Christians in the 7th century was the New Testament.

In fact, the Muslim translators of the Quran, Al-Hilali and Khan, realized this to be true when they added the following parenthetical remark in their translation of this verse:

    "Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurat.( Torah) (Deut. xviii, 15) and the Injil (Gospel) (John xiv, 16)" 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

AlNg

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 16, 2022, 09:01:57 AM

What is common to one person in the Blessed Trinity is common to all,
So it is an error to say that only the Father knows, and the Holy Spirit does not know?

Michael Wilson

Quote from: AlNg on December 16, 2022, 01:57:15 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 16, 2022, 09:01:57 AM

What is common to one person in the Blessed Trinity is common to all,
So it is an error to say that only the Father knows, and the Holy Spirit does not know?
Yes, an error.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

AlNg

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 16, 2022, 01:58:08 PM
Quote from: AlNg on December 16, 2022, 01:57:15 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 16, 2022, 09:01:57 AM

What is common to one person in the Blessed Trinity is common to all,
So it is an error to say that only the Father knows, and the Holy Spirit does not know?
Yes, an error.
Finally we agree on something.

Julio

Quote from: AlNg on December 16, 2022, 05:12:10 AM

It is really pretty simple. The Holy Spirit knows the day and the hour. So it is an error to imply that the Holy Spirit does not know the day and the hour.
Do you really understand the Holy Trinity? I don't, and even St. Thomas Aquinas failed to finish his Summa when had his glimpse of heaven. It is not an error at all. It is what it is. I know that it is the three Person and the one God. Other than that, I don't. To my humble opinion the Holy Bible must be read in keeping with the Magisterium if you are a Catholic.

We are like this because our human leadership is not able to catechize us properly. We are among the poorly catechized generation of Catholics in its history.

Michael Wilson

Quote from: AlNg on December 16, 2022, 02:01:31 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 16, 2022, 01:58:08 PM
Quote from: AlNg on December 16, 2022, 01:57:15 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 16, 2022, 09:01:57 AM

What is common to one person in the Blessed Trinity is common to all,
So it is an error to say that only the Father knows, and the Holy Spirit does not know?
Yes, an error.
It was bound to happen sooner or latter.
Finally we agree on something.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Greg

I accept the authority of the Gospels for the following reason.

Jesus existed.
His disciples claimed that he claimed He was God.
They mostly died via execution defending those ideas (i.e.  They believed it themselves)
The land in which Jesus preached was very soon destroyed and the Jews scattered (this seems very unlikely if it were just another middle eastern cult).
The leading cultures over the last 2000 years who have developed and invented everything valuable in the world are the Christian cultures.  Christianity very clearly gives the societies that adopt it and make it stick, a peace dividend and makes them intellectually superior to other non-Christian cultures (on average).
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.