Started by Jean Carrier, June 13, 2023, 10:14:54 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on June 16, 2023, 01:33:58 PMOn St. Alphonus, he was not a "laxist", but is considered as the great restorer of Catholic Moral Theology, and his opinions were considered so correct, that Pope Pius IV stated that his opinions on moral matters could be followed safely by all. He was granted the title of "Doctor of the Church", because of his "Moral Theology".
QuoteAssuming Hitler is in hell, if God had killed Hitler right after Baptism, he'd be in heaven. So God withheld that help according to Divine Providence.
Quote've never understood the objection to God hardening Pharoah's heart.
Quote2 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, 23 That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory?
QuoteHow do we know that God did not have plans for Hitler to become a priest, bishop and even a great Pope; a man with his oratorical skills working for the greater glory of God, could have possibly converted Germany to the Catholic faith.
QuoteGod did not kill Hitler, and many of those Baptized who latter lost their souls, because He intended them for a higher degree of glory than if they would have died right after Baptism.
QuoteWe have to believe in God's universal salvific will; that He died for all men; therefore any hypothesis that leads one to deny these truths, has to be rejected out of hand.
QuoteBecause that would lead to the unacceptable conclusion that God does directly will the damnation of some souls, a la Calvinism.
QuoteGod is patient with sinners, and gives them the time and graces they need to save their souls.
QuoteBecause Hitler would have become a priest.
QuoteThis makes no sense. God KNOWS they will be damned, and yet He chooses to allow it to happen and withholds the helps necessary for them to be saved. In Hitler's case, God KNEW Hitler was going to hell. But right after baptism, and some period longer, he was guaranteed heaven; But God, according to his secret purpose, allowed Hitler to go on and end up damned. .
QuotePharoah damned himself by worshipping demons and committing a host of mortal sins. God COULD have struck him down at any moment with lightning, and you would not raise an objection. Instead God hardened his heart in punishment for his sins.
QuoteThat is not the meaning of the scripture. God endured the sins of Pharoah with great patience, and instead of striking him down with lightning, he hardened his heart instead and used him to manifest His power.
QuoteIf God wanted to send Pharao to Hell, why would he endure his sins with great patience?
Quote22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, 23 That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory?
QuotePharao was given the grace to repent and he did seven times; and seven times he rejected the grace.
Quote from: james03 on June 18, 2023, 04:36:52 PMBoth sides of this debate, whether the Banezian or the hard core Molinist have a problem with Free Will.The Banezian says you have Free Will (wink-wink) but have to invent a convoluted system of two graces because you don't REALLY have Free Will, you are just a dung pile covered with snow, all the while losing sight of Sanctifying Grace. From my limited knowlege, I give credit to Calvin for at least believing in regeneration. The Banezians are more extreme and embrace Luther.
QuoteThe hard core Molinist also reject Free Will.
Quote"Pharoah couldn't be saved no matter what he did because of Divine Providence.
QuoteHitler couldn't be saved because of Divine Providence.".
QuoteRubbish. Both had Free Will, and Hitler even had Sanctifying Grace. Pharoah knew that the monsters he worshipped were demons....
QuoteFr. Hesse sums it up well: "If you want to go to heaven, you'll go to heaven.". Let me contrast "wanting to go to heaven" vs "avoiding hell". The damned got grace. They freely choose to reject it. God owes them nothing. Divine Providence and Free Will work together, inside of time and outside of time.
QuoteBut you were arguing above, that if God "really' wanted to save Hitler, He would have killed him right after he was baptized;
QuoteSo we have really been making the same argument, but just miss-understanding each other.