Protestant Elements in the Novus Ordo

Started by kmo_9000, July 11, 2023, 07:15:37 AM

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kmo_9000

I wanted to make a thread about this to narrow it down. Many mainstream liturgists readily admit that the Novus Ordo has protestant liturgical elements in it.

It's a bit hard to narrow this subject down because people confuse this with saying "the Church is protestant" or "the Mass is invalid."

However, there are clearly elements in the Novus Ordo that come from protestant liturgical traditions. Klaus Gamber gives examples in his book where the new order Mass is "obviously an adaptation of the Protestant example." Ancedotally, I knew a Baptist Minister who would regularly attend a Saturday evening Novus Ordo and told me all the protestent elements he saw in it.

Would it be possible for us to brainstorm and come up with a list of concreet examples of parts of the NO that are clearly following Protestant liturgical ideas?


drummerboy

Pretty much the entire NO Mass lol!  The list would need a book to fill
"My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy Spirit.  Holy Trinity, glory to You." 
"All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God; keep me under your protection."

kmo_9000

Quote from: drummerboy on July 11, 2023, 08:02:52 AMPretty much the entire NO Mass lol!  The list would need a book to fill

That doesn't help when you are trying to convince someone of this.

Jean Carrier

I've read that removing the genuflection which immediately precedes the elevation was done for the sake of ecumenism with the Lutherans. The revised Confiteor likewise is nearly identical to the one used by Lutherans (though the BVM and Saints are tacked on to the end).
All mankind was in the ark with Noah : all the Church is with me on the rock of Pensicola!
- Pope St. Benedict XIII, in response to the emissaries of Anti-Emperor Sigismund and the Conciliarist Council of Constance who demanded his resignation

Mushroom

  • Immodest dress and casual attire. Women don't veil even though it's Biblical. It's a sign that you can pick and choose what's in the Bible.
  • Music is feel-good, guitar.
  • Feminism (female lectors, women involvement).
  • The need to reform the liturgy like The Protestant Reformation to make things "inclusive", no Latin, everyone "takes" Communion, fake Sign of Peace. Sacraments and liturgy are made simplistic.
  • The Eucharist is not treated with the utmost respect, like kneeling to receive it on the tongue instead it's handled casually.
  • The "Our Father" at the end has a Protestant which is "For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever."
  • Too much emphasis on abortion, not enough on contraception, hell, mortal sins (generally topics that make Protestants uncomfortable).
  • Man is the centre of the liturgy, not God with the Priest facing the people, felt banners, the interior of the church looking bland and like a community centre. If you don't go up for Communion, you feel left out. If you don't participate in the Sign of Peace, you feel left out. The priest's role is being diminished when a layperson is also handing out Holy Communion.

Also this might help: https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/62-reasons-why-conscience-we-cannot-attend-new-mass-21017

Baylee

Practically all references to it being a "sacrifice" are gone.

Jean Carrier

#6
Quote from: MushroomRooster on July 11, 2023, 10:31:15 AM
  • The "Our Father" at the end has a Protestant which is "For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever."

This one isn't protestant per se; it actually originates from the Eastern Rites and has a similar antiquity and origin to our own Mysterium Fidei in the words of institution. From there it made it into the Byzantine copies of the Gospels which would latter be compiled unto a single reclension by Erasmus in his Textus Receptus.  It was, of course, the TR which was chiefly relied upon by the translators of the KJV, and the rest is history.
All mankind was in the ark with Noah : all the Church is with me on the rock of Pensicola!
- Pope St. Benedict XIII, in response to the emissaries of Anti-Emperor Sigismund and the Conciliarist Council of Constance who demanded his resignation

awkward customer

#7
 The Altar has become a table.  Mass is said facing the people.  The Sanctuary has been blown open with lay people traipsing in and out to do the readings etc.  Communion is given in the hand.......

The list goes on and on. But it can all be summed up by the following statement, which is -

The People of God celebrate the Eucharist with the Priest presiding.

I think this was originally in the GIRM, or was it Sacrosanctum Concilium?  At any rate, it is clear from this statement alone that the NO is not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

But it's not just down to Protestant elements in the NO. The whole thing reeks of Modernism. 


awkward customer

Quote from: Baylee on July 11, 2023, 10:31:55 AMPractically all references to it being a "sacrifice" are gone.

Particularly a propitiatory sacrifice.  They've done everything they can to play down the propitiatory nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Because the People of God don't sin and propitiation isn't required. 

kmo_9000

Quote from: MushroomRooster on July 11, 2023, 10:31:15 AM
  • Immodest dress and casual attire. Women don't veil even though it's Biblical. It's a sign that you can pick and choose what's in the Bible.
  • Music is feel-good, guitar.
  • Feminism (female lectors, women involvement).
  • The need to reform the liturgy like The Protestant Reformation to make things "inclusive", no Latin, everyone "takes" Communion, fake Sign of Peace. Sacraments and liturgy are made simplistic.
  • The Eucharist is not treated with the utmost respect, like kneeling to receive it on the tongue instead it's handled casually.
  • The "Our Father" at the end has a Protestant which is "For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever."
  • Too much emphasis on abortion, not enough on contraception, hell, mortal sins (generally topics that make Protestants uncomfortable).
  • Man is the centre of the liturgy, not God with the Priest facing the people, felt banners, the interior of the church looking bland and like a community centre. If you don't go up for Communion, you feel left out. If you don't participate in the Sign of Peace, you feel left out. The priest's role is being diminished when a layperson is also handing out Holy Communion.

Also this might help: https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/62-reasons-why-conscience-we-cannot-attend-new-mass-21017

The problem with some of these is that things like immodest dress are not part of the liturgy or "protestant" in particular.

The doxology after the Our Father is protestant in our Latin or Western context since it was protestant's who first started doing it. These are the kind of examples I'm looking for.

Removing the genuflection which immediately precedes the elevations are another good example of something that is in the rubrics.


Kent

I do profess to be no less than I seem, to serve him truly
that will put me in trust, to love him that is honest, to
converse with him that is wise and says little, to fear
judgment, to fight when I cannot choose, and to eat no fish.

drummerboy

I too would add lay distribution of Communion; many protestants simply pass a tray with hosts and Dixie cups of wine around, many Catholic parishes aren't far behind with armies of ministers distributing.

 And let's not forget Communion under both species: a trademark of protestants ever since Jan Hus.
"My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy Spirit.  Holy Trinity, glory to You." 
"All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God; keep me under your protection."


Michael Wilson

Read the original "Brief Critical Study of the N.O.M" aka "The Ottaviani Intervention" online
http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/brief_critical_study_of_the_new_order_of_mass-ottaviani-intervention.pdf;
Refer frequently to the end notes.
and if you want further and  a more thorough study: "The Work of Human Hands" by Fr. Anthony Cekada.
Not available online but can be purchased. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

aquinas138

Quote from: kmo_9000 on July 11, 2023, 01:18:48 PMThe doxology after the Our Father is protestant in our Latin or Western context since it was protestant's who first started doing it. These are the kind of examples I'm looking for.

Indeed, and though it has its origin in the East, the Novus Ordo doesn't use it like the Eastern rites. Whereas the NO has its version of "Libera nos, quaesumus" immediately after the Pater and makes the doxology the people's response to that prayer, in the Coptic and Syriac rites, the doxology is just added to the end of the Lord's prayer without interruption (the text is slightly different in each rite). In the Byzantine rite, the doxology is reserved to a priest, and even deacons, when leading services outside the Divine Liturgy, omit the doxology or replace it with a customary replacement (the Jesus Prayer or others by local tradition).
What shall we call you, O full of grace? * Heaven? for you have shone forth the Sun of Righteousness. * Paradise? for you have brought forth the Flower of immortality. * Virgin? for you have remained incorrupt. * Pure Mother? for you have held in your holy embrace your Son, the God of all. * Entreat Him to save our souls.