My 18 year old graduated from grammar school in July and since has had a 3 week holiday in Thailand and 2 more weeks in Fatima helping to build a house for his godfather. Last 3 weeks he has been grape picking in Kent for a local winemaker called Chapel Down. Hard graft. None of the English workers lasted the hard work and so they brought in pickers from Kazakstan, Turkmenistan and other places. They worked much harder. Because my son is bilingual he translated to the foreman
Now he is getting ready to move to Kazakhstan in April 2024 where he plans to teach English to the children of the oil and gas rich locals and fake it till he makes it. Plan is to stay at least 3 years.
Luckily there is a healthy Latin Mass community there under Bishop Athanasius Schneider. Lots of Volga Germans, Latvian, Poles were exiled to the steppe under Stalin and these are their offspring.
I am jealous. Should be an adventure at 18.
Anyway, should be an interesting insight into that Latin mass community.
Name of region?
That is awesome, good for him!
We do a lot of work in Kazakhstan...great people
He will be in Astana, the modern Capital city
As I understand it, the Volga Germans speak a dialect of German far removed from modern day German.
And I guess most speak Russian as their first language by now.
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 22, 2023, 02:45:11 PMThat is awesome, good for him!
We do a lot of work in Kazakhstan...great people
You fly to Kazakhstan in the private jet?
Quote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 02:31:20 AMQuote from: LausTibiChriste on October 22, 2023, 02:45:11 PMThat is awesome, good for him!
We do a lot of work in Kazakhstan...great people
You fly to Kazakhstan in the private jet?
I wish. But we routinely organize handling across the country. Astana, Almaty, etc
What does handling across the country mean?
Lucky him. He'll learn more there than at university, plus the experience
He got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers. The women who ran the Kazakh team was really pleased and has exchanged social media details so he can give them English lessons on line. There is also a gang from Turkmenistan attached to them. They are staying in caravans somewhere near Ashford and basically want to earn as much money as possible so they can return and support their families.
Everyday they are not working is a big loss to them as they have nothing else to do here in the UK.
I think they are very surprised to find a well educated Englishman grafting like they are and picking grapes. All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
Quote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 04:49:24 AMWhat does handling across the country mean?
Handling is the generic term for accepting an aircraft. Have a marshaller there, parking is booked, customs is ready to receive pax etc etc. We only work with non-scheduled flights, so all this stuff is taken for granted when it comes to scheduled flights.
Company works across central and Eastern EU. I'm good friends with our KZ manager - if your kid gets sick of teaching English/picking grapes and wants to work at the airport, I'll see if I can hook him up. If he's native level in English and Russian he'll be worth his weight in gold.
Plus he'll get to hob-knob with all the billionaires walking off their private jets.
Quote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers. The women who ran the Kazakh team was really pleased and has exchanged social media details so he can give them English lessons on line. There is also a gang from Turkmenistan attached to them. They are staying in caravans somewhere near Ashford and basically want to earn as much money as possible so they can return and support their families.
Everyday they are not working is a big loss to them as they have nothing else to do here in the UK.
I think they are very surprised to find a well educated Englishman grafting like they are and picking grapes. All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
Why is your son helping to drive down wages in the UK, Greg, by advising local farmers to use cheap foreign labour?
Driving out the lazy English in favour of gangs of workers from abroad.
Your son needs a good talking to.
She's gotta point.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 02:08:33 PMQuote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers. The women who ran the Kazakh team was really pleased and has exchanged social media details so he can give them English lessons on line. There is also a gang from Turkmenistan attached to them. They are staying in caravans somewhere near Ashford and basically want to earn as much money as possible so they can return and support their families.
Everyday they are not working is a big loss to them as they have nothing else to do here in the UK.
I think they are very surprised to find a well educated Englishman grafting like they are and picking grapes. All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
Why is your son helping to drive down wages in the UK, Greg, by advising local farmers to use cheap foreign labour?
Driving out the lazy English in favour of gangs of workers from abroad.
Your son needs a good talking to.
Same reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
Quote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
They refuse to work for the low wages that the migrants are willing to accept?
Quote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers........
....... All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
This is bugging me. I didn't properly take this in before.
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
Kazakhstan is a great country. I've spent more time in Kyrgyzstan, but did cross the border for a bit to go to the consulate and found everyone to be very open hearted and polite. Sometimes I really miss Central Asia.
Kyrgyzstan is more old school, a bit less developed. And, with less of a German presence, there's no real Catholic presence to speak of. Kazakhstan is a haven for the Latin Mass and is very modern in the main cities in terms of amenities, etc.
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 23, 2023, 02:03:32 PMQuote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 04:49:24 AMWhat does handling across the country mean?
Handling is the generic term for accepting an aircraft. Have a marshaller there, parking is booked, customs is ready to receive pax etc etc. We only work with non-scheduled flights, so all this stuff is taken for granted when it comes to scheduled flights.
Company works across central and Eastern EU. I'm good friends with our KZ manager - if your kid gets sick of teaching English/picking grapes and wants to work at the airport, I'll see if I can hook him up. If he's native level in English and Russian he'll be worth his weight in gold.
Plus he'll get to hob-knob with all the billionaires walking off their private jets.
Perfect, that is exactly the sort of thing he is after. One he has his LinkedIn account set up I will ping you. He next needs to get his driving licence and ESL qualification. He has spoken Russian since birth and been to Russian school every Saturday and hangs around with Russians and Ukrainians here. He also graduated with an A* (highest grade) at Russian A level last year.
The plan currently is for him to to be there for Easter 2024. But I cannot book flights on Skyscanner that far out.
He is planning to teach rich kids English and Maths, and their parents spoken English, but having a proper FT job would make his working visa easier for him, especially at 18. Those two jobs would suit him, I am sure. I think the working visa is much easier with his Russian citizenship than his UK, since there is some sort of commonwealth between the former Soviet states.
He is socialable and strong as an ox, goes to the gym daily. So good for shifting baggage and not damaging their Louis Vuitton cases. I am sure he would enjoy the hustle and bustle of an airport. Especially private jets.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:56:35 PMQuote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers........
....... All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
This is bugging me. I didn't properly take this in before.
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
You mean should people who pick twice as many grapes as other people get to keep their job on merit when they have paid 1000 quid to travel to Britain and apply for a work visa, precisely because Britain cannot get enough fruit pickers?
Should such people who work that much harder have the opportunity to go back with money in their pockets?
Yes, I would think that was perfectly ethical. What would be unethical is depriving the hardest working people of work based on nationalism. They are not illegal workers. They are paying taxes like the rest of the pickers.
Otherwise a bottle of wine would cost 30 quid at Waitrose not 15.
Quote from: Heinrich on October 23, 2023, 04:41:28 PMShe's gotta point.
Yet my son kept his job. Clearly despite being a Brit he can graft with the best of them.
Farmers just want the grapes picked at the lowest prices. Picking contractors want to make a margin. They charge a fixed amount per ton in competitive bidding. Hard workers for them equals more profit.
Capitalism baby.
Remember it was the owner of the vineyard who decided to pay everyone a penny. That is His right as it is his money. The workers did not form a union in the parable..
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 01:32:14 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:56:35 PMQuote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers........
....... All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
This is bugging me. I didn't properly take this in before.
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
You mean should people who pick twice as many grapes as other people get to keep their job on merit when they have paid 1000 quid to travel to Britain and apply for a work visa, precisely because Britain cannot get enough fruit pickers?
Should such people who work that much harder have the opportunity to go back with money in their pockets?
Yes, I would think that was perfectly ethical. What would be unethical is depriving the hardest working people of work based on nationalism. They are not illegal workers. They are paying taxes like the rest of the pickers.
Otherwise a bottle of wine would cost 30 quid at Waitrose not 15.
First they came for the fruit pickers ...
edit:First they outsourced off the call centre workers and I did not speak up because I was not a call centre worker.
Then they outsourced the testers and I did not speak up because I was not a tester.
... and then they outsourced me.http://blog.joeware.net/2007/05/09/871/
These grapes are for wine. So it should be,
First they came for the juice....
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 01:32:14 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:56:35 PMQuote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers........
....... All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
This is bugging me. I didn't properly take this in before.
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
You mean should people who pick twice as many grapes as other people get to keep their job on merit when they have paid 1000 quid to travel to Britain and apply for a work visa, precisely because Britain cannot get enough fruit pickers?
Should such people who work that much harder have the opportunity to go back with money in their pockets?
Yes, I would think that was perfectly ethical. What would be unethical is depriving the hardest working people of work based on nationalism. They are not illegal workers. They are paying taxes like the rest of the pickers.
Otherwise a bottle of wine would cost 30 quid at Waitrose not 15.
Cheap foreign workers drive down wages. Obviously you approve of this.
But nevertheless, the farmer your son was working for still employed some English workers. Good for him.
And then your son persuaded the farmer to sack those English workers and employ cheap foreign labour in their place with the result that the Kazakhs love him. They would, wouldn't they?
That's the behaviour of your son that I think is questionable, ethically.
We can argue all day about the ethics of an economic system which relies on imported cheap foreign labour. But actually persuading a farmer to sack local workers and employ cheap foreign labour in their place is the point here.
I think your son behaved unethically.
And that's me being polite.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 01:38:10 AMQuote from: Heinrich on October 23, 2023, 04:41:28 PMShe's gotta point.
Yet my son kept his job. Clearly despite being a Brit he can graft with the best of them.
Farmers just want the grapes picked at the lowest prices. Picking contractors want to make a margin. They charge a fixed amount per ton in competitive bidding. Hard workers for them equals more profit.
Capitalism baby.
Remember it was the owner of the vineyard who decided to pay everyone a penny. That is His right as it is his money. The workers did not form a union in the parable..
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and employ cheap foreign workers. As a result, the English people lost work.
And all to curry favour with a bunch of Kazakhs.
You can joke about capitalism all you like but it was a shitty thing to do.
Why don't you go and ask some 'Men of Kent' what they think? If you can find any.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:47:47 PMQuote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
They refuse to work for the low wages that the migrants are willing to accept?
If as a native British or American person you are competing with Mexicans and Kazakhs for unskilled manual labour jobs, the only skill being how hard you work and the gross weight you pick, then you have failed at life. You speak natively the most used business language in the world. You had a free education till 18, your libraries are stuffed with free books and the internet is full of information and free learning in your native tongue.
You already had a huge advantage over Mexicans and Kazakhs.
The gang started out in late September with mostly British school leavers, 3 German hippies and older people in their late 20s and early 30s, told by the welfare office to do some work of lose their unemployment benefits. They did enough to remain on benefits and left. 40% of the school leavers lasted 1 or 2 days. 2 Brits are remaining, 34 Kazaks, 4 Turkmens, 8 Romanians.
The foreign workers do 1.5 to 2 times as much work for the same pay.
It pays about 85 pounds after taxes (just over 100 dollars) per day for a 9 hour work day, not including the travel. If you stay late and clean the collection buckets you get another 20 dollars.
My son could earn more money labouring on a building site. But he is enjoying it. It's not about the money, he likes being out in the fresh air. I would pay him 160 dollars a day to work a 7 hour day for me sitting on his ass at laptop computer.
The English workers had already left in the first week. My son persuaded the gang boss to give the last 2 weeks of work to the Kazakhs who were the hardest working by far and the most productive compared to Turks, Romanians etc. The Kazakhs were already there and he was bucket running for multiple teams. The other workers simply go back to their caravans until the next gang boss hirers them. There is always produce sitting around in a field or a packing house somewhere. They lazier ones just get more rest days, which is kind of what they want.
Naturally the gang boss wants the fields cleared as quickly as possible for the lowest price possible.
I do the same when I hire a Polish builder and pay him in cash. I never hire English tradesmen unless I need their particular skills, like beadwork for example. They cost more and do less and leave early.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 02:39:15 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:47:47 PMQuote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
They refuse to work for the low wages that the migrants are willing to accept?
If as a native British or American person you are competing with Mexicans and Kazakhs for unskilled manual labour jobs, the only skill being how hard you work and the gross weight you pick, then you have failed at life. You speak natively the most used business language in the world. You had a free education till 18, your libraries are stuffed with free books and the internet is full of information and free learning in your native tongue.
You already had a huge advantage over Mexicans and Kazakhs.
The gang started out in late September with mostly British school leavers, 3 German hippies and older people in their late 20s and early 30s, told by the welfare office to do some work of lose their unemployment benefits. They did enough to remain on benefits and left. 40% of the school leavers lasted 1 or 2 days. 2 Brits are remaining, 34 Kazaks, 4 Turkmens, 8 Romanians.
The foreign workers do 1.5 to 2 times as much work for the same pay.
It pays about 85 pounds after taxes (just over 100 dollars) per day for a 9 hour work day, not including the travel. If you stay late and clean the collection buckets you get another 20 dollars.
My son could earn more money labouring on a building site. But he is enjoying it. It's not about the money, he likes being out in the fresh air. I would pay him 160 dollars a day to work a 7 hour day for me sitting on his ass at laptop computer.
So he gets it from you, does he?
Listen to yourself, accusing people of being losers in life because they want to earn some spare cash working in the fields, as English people have always done until gangs of foreign labourers started arriving and denying them this work.
I've heard stories too. Foreign workers bullying the local workers, grabbing everything for themselves, driving down their wages and generally being obnoxious.
You said yourself that you didn't blame the English workers for not wanting to work for £10 an hour. And yet it is your beloved foreigners who keep wages so low.
I used to know people who regularly picked fruit in the fields of Kent every summer. Were they "losers in life"? Well they've lost that work, thanks to people like your son.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 02:44:12 AMThe English workers had already left. My son persuaded the gang boss to give the last 2 weeks of work to the Kazakhs who were the hardest working by far and the most productive. The other workers simply go back to their caravans until the next gang boss hirers them. There is always produce sitting around in a field or a packing house somewhere.
Naturally the gang boss wants the fields cleared as quickly as possible for the lowest price possible.
I do the same when I hire a Polish builder and pay him in cash.
Why are you changing your story?
You originally said that your son persuaded the farmer not to keep on the "other workers", that is, the English workers, and that the Kazakhs gained an extra two weeks work as a result.
And why don't you employ an English plumber? English plumbers take cash.
Why are you and your family doing so much to deny work to English people and give it to foreigners instead?
Let me guess. It's capitalism.
It is getting quite heated here. I guess I should step in to remind everyone that we are all brother and sister Catholics here and we shouldn't hate each other even if we do have different opinions. In the sight of God we all belong to one big family so maybe it would be good to cool things down. So, what do you say?
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 03:00:56 AMQuote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 02:44:12 AMThe English workers had already left. My son persuaded the gang boss to give the last 2 weeks of work to the Kazakhs who were the hardest working by far and the most productive. The other workers simply go back to their caravans until the next gang boss hirers them. There is always produce sitting around in a field or a packing house somewhere.
Naturally the gang boss wants the fields cleared as quickly as possible for the lowest price possible.
I do the same when I hire a Polish builder and pay him in cash.
Why are you changing your story?
You originally said that your son persuaded the farmer not to keep on the "other workers", that is, the English workers, and that the Kazakhs gained an extra two weeks work as a result.
And why don't you employ an English plumber? English plumbers take cash.
Why are you and your family doing so much to deny work to English people and give it to foreigners instead?
Let me guess. It's capitalism.
I'm not changing my story. Go and read what I wrote rather than what you want to believe I wrote.
The English people did not last out the first week except for my son and one other (his school friends). Said that in the first post.
Other gangs were brought in from Romania, Nigeria and other places. Nobody outworked the Kazakhs.
Since the Kazakhs have paid for a working visa to Britain to pick fruit, and a flight, if they work the hardest why should anyone else get preference over them based on their nationality?
You are arguing as though they are illegal immigrants. They're not.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:47:47 PMQuote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
They refuse to work for the low wages that the migrants are willing to accept?
That's understandable. The English can fall back on a welfare system. The visiting worker cannot.
I wouldn't work for £10 per hour. I'd spend the time on the internet, learn about some esoteric banking compliance regulation in banking, like Basel III and then sell myself into a £30 per hour job working in a bank. Something the Kazakh or Nigerian cannot possibly do. You're much better off educating yourself in something that white middle-class people employ white middle-class people to do.
Or sit back on welfare, get free things of Freecycle, ebay some of it for cash and enjoy my free time.
What I want to know is why you hate hard working Kazakh fruit pickers so much? If the opportunity is there for them to pick fruit and they do so legally, then why should a lazier British or Nigerian person get preference over them?
That just raises costs and make British wines uncompetitive and the farmers unemployed.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 03:32:38 AMI'm not changing my story. Go and read what I wrote rather than what you want to believe I wrote.
The English people did not last out the first week except for my son and one other (his school friends). Said that in the first post.
Other gangs were brought in from Romania, Nigeria and other places. Nobody outworked the Kazakhs.
Since the Kazakhs have paid for a working visa to Britain to pick fruit, and a flight, if they work the hardest why should anyone else get preference over them based on their nationality?
You are arguing as though they are illegal immigrants. They're not.
This is what you wrote. Post 9.
QuoteHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers. The women who ran the Kazakh team was really pleased and has exchanged social media details so he can give them English lessons on line. There is also a gang from Turkmenistan attached to them. They are staying in caravans somewhere near Ashford and basically want to earn as much money as possible so they can return and support their families.
Everyday they are not working is a big loss to them as they have nothing else to do here in the UK.
I think they are very surprised to find a well educated Englishman grafting like they are and picking grapes. All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
Quote from: Mister Cowboy on October 24, 2023, 03:16:17 AMIt is getting quite heated here. I guess I should step in to remind everyone that we are all brother and sister Catholics here and we shouldn't hate each other even if we do have different opinions. In the sight of God we all belong to one big family so maybe it would be good to cool things down. So, what do you say?
Found the new guy
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 03:46:48 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:47:47 PMQuote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
They refuse to work for the low wages that the migrants are willing to accept?
That's understandable. The English can fall back on a welfare system. The visiting worker cannot.
I wouldn't work for £10 per hour. I'd spend the time on the internet, learn about some esoteric banking compliance regulation in banking, like Basel III and then sell myself into a £30 per hour job working in a bank. Something the Kazakh or Nigerian cannot possibly do. You're much better off educating yourself in something that white middle-class people employ white middle-class people to do.
Or sit back on welfare, get free things of Freecycle, ebay some of it for cash and enjoy my free time.
What I want to know is why you hate hard working Kazakh fruit pickers so much? If the opportunity is there for them to pick fruit and they do so legally, then why should a lazier British or Nigerian person get preference over them?
That just raises costs and make British wines uncompetitive and the farmers unemployed.
Oh, get lost.
How dare you suggest that I "hate hard working Kazakh fruit pickers"? You're using the tactics of the Left, making personal attacks when their arguments run out.
Everything is about price and profit to you, isn't it and you've taught your son well.
If you choose to see human beings merely as units of productive labour then that's your loss.
And all so that you can be a great little minion of the capitalist class who would throw you under a bus tomorrow if it suited them and leave you on the same scrap heap as all the English plumbers and fruit pickers.
Quote from: Mister Cowboy on October 24, 2023, 03:16:17 AMIt is getting quite heated here. I guess I should step in to remind everyone that we are all brother and sister Catholics here and we shouldn't hate each other even if we do have different opinions. In the sight of God we all belong to one big family so maybe it would be good to cool things down. So, what do you say?
I don't hate Greg. Can't speak for him though ...
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 02:53:24 AMListen to yourself, accusing people of being losers in life because they want to earn some spare cash working in the fields, as English people have always done until gangs of foreign labourers started arriving and denying them this work.
This is clearly not the case. The site started out with English workers, mostly recent school leavers. The vast majority could not hack the hard work. They quit, they were not fired. My son is still there after all and they've asked him to stay the full six weeks. But he only ever intended to work for 3 weeks and then decided to do a fourth.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 02:53:24 AMI've heard stories too. Foreign workers bullying the local workers, grabbing everything for themselves, driving down their wages and generally being obnoxious.
Yeah, sure you have. We have all heard stories.
How would a bunch of non-English speaking Kazahks be able to sell themselves to English farmers working for a British winemaker Chapel Down?
Why don't these wily foreigners manage to drive down the bonuses of investment bankers or London plumbers, or anything else?
And why do they chose the lowest paid work to drive the price down? Why not £30 per hour down to £20 per hour?
The farmers pay the agency bosses a fee based on each acre or hectare picked. The agency bosses hire whoever they are able based on the weather. The hourly rate is the same £10 which is above minimum wage in the UK by about £1 per hour. Since the gang bosses are English and the farmers are English then all things being equal they would prefer to hire English speaking workers. The harsh reality is that other nationalities work a lot harder because they are motivated by the money.
You are basically spouting a lot of nonsense. What is happening is market pricing. In a rich society people don't need to work as hard because there is welfare. The fact that Twitter could fire 80% of its staff and nothing happened, shows that many people are doing bugger all for the wages they earn. In stands to reason that the farmers want to get a profit from their grape planting investment, so have a competitive bid for the picking of the grapes, and the picking bidders hire the gang bosses who can complete the contract and the wages are fixed at just over £10 per hour, so the people who are going to last in the job are those who pick the most grapes.
That is called a market economy and market driven pricing.
What you are espousing is a system where lazy British workers would have £130 a day for pouncing around in a field chatting and the wine maker would go bust then the fields would lie fallow (Zimbabwe comes to mind).
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 02:53:24 AMI used to know people who regularly picked fruit in the fields of Kent every summer. Were they "losers in life"? Well they've lost that work, thanks to people like your son.
And I knew people who worked in British car factories and printed newspapers in Wapping.
They were shitty lazy unionised workers and made shitty products and Germans and Japanese and Koreans and Mexicans outperformed them. The best of them are now making Turbofan engines for Rolls Royce in Derby. The Printers union was smashed to pieces by Margaret Thatcher and Desktop Publishing and good riddance. That was a racket.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 03:50:48 AMThis is what you wrote. Post 9.
QuoteHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers. The women who ran the Kazakh team was really pleased and has exchanged social media details so he can give them English lessons on line. There is also a gang from Turkmenistan attached to them. They are staying in caravans somewhere near Ashford and basically want to earn as much money as possible so they can return and support their families.
Everyday they are not working is a big loss to them as they have nothing else to do here in the UK.
I think they are very surprised to find a well educated Englishman grafting like they are and picking grapes. All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
And where does that suggest that the workers who lost the opportunity to work for another two weeks there were British?
And even if they were what of it?
If there were a British Investment Banker with a work permit to work in the USA and a US citizen both competing for the same job at Goldman Sachs, would you suggest that the American should get a preference for it?
If so, what was the point of getting a work permit and paying all that money?
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 04:00:31 AMEverything is about price and profit to you, isn't it and you've taught your son well.
If you choose to see human beings merely as units of productive labour then that's your loss.
And all so that you can be a great little minion of the capitalist class who would throw you under a bus tomorrow if it suited them and leave you on the same scrap heap as all the English plumbers and fruit pickers.
I'm still waiting for your global digital currency to be forced onto everyone and cash to disappear.
How would you suggest that the farmer with the grapes should proceed and turn a profit if he was determined to hire British only fruit pickers?
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 04:16:05 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 03:50:48 AMThis is what you wrote. Post 9.
QuoteHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers. The women who ran the Kazakh team was really pleased and has exchanged social media details so he can give them English lessons on line. There is also a gang from Turkmenistan attached to them. They are staying in caravans somewhere near Ashford and basically want to earn as much money as possible so they can return and support their families.
Everyday they are not working is a big loss to them as they have nothing else to do here in the UK.
I think they are very surprised to find a well educated Englishman grafting like they are and picking grapes. All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
And where does that suggest that the workers who lost the opportunity to work for another two weeks there were British?
What were they then?
QuoteAnd even if they were what of it?
They're your neighbours.
QuoteIf there were a British Investment Banker with a work permit to work in the USA and a US citizen both competing for the same job at Goldman Sachs, would you suggest that the American should get a preference for it?
Yes, definitely.
QuoteIf so, what was the point of getting a work permit and paying all that money?
They wouldn't bother if no-one employed them to undercut wages. Instead they might have to build up their own economies, and given what excellent workers they are they should have no trouble at all.
Well, you two can argue all you want but at the end of the day we've got to forgive each other. As for me, I can't help much as I haven't worked much or maybe even haven't worked much at all. That's all I can say...
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 04:18:38 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 04:00:31 AMEverything is about price and profit to you, isn't it and you've taught your son well.
If you choose to see human beings merely as units of productive labour then that's your loss.
And all so that you can be a great little minion of the capitalist class who would throw you under a bus tomorrow if it suited them and leave you on the same scrap heap as all the English plumbers and fruit pickers.
I'm still waiting for your global digital currency to be forced onto everyone and cash to disappear.
How would you suggest that the farmer with the grapes should proceed and turn a profit if he was determined to hire British only fruit pickers?
And meanwhile the British government is uploading all the passport photographs on its database into its facial recognition system. All those cameras can now identify you from your passport photograph.
As for the farmers, given that the entire capitalist/corporatist system treats human beings as units of labour, as you do, they have a problem, especially with the supermarkets playing their part by demanding higher profits and hence lower produce prices.
Just out of interest, how much of the fruit your son was picking was grown in polytunnels? The reason I'm asking is that fruit grown in this way tastes like wood, IMO, and isn't worth eating, let alone growing.
This country manged to produce plenty of food when local farms were worked by local people, as I remember. And the food tasted better.
The corporatist system that you praise has done nothing but harm.
Quote from: Mister Cowboy on October 24, 2023, 03:16:17 AMIt is getting quite heated here. I guess I should step in to remind everyone that we are all brother and sister Catholics here and we shouldn't hate each other even if we do have different opinions. In the sight of God we all belong to one big family so maybe it would be good to cool things down. So, what do you say?
Am I my brothers keeper? </sarcasm>
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 04:12:20 AMWhy don't these wily foreigners manage to drive down the bonuses of investment bankers or London plumbers, or anything else?
They do. Wages across the board have barely risen for years as there's been an influx of cheap foreign labour into all sectors of the economy. And that's one of the aims behind the influx, to keep wages down.
Perhaps you could explain why President Putin doesn't import gangs of foreigners to undercut Russian wages?
Could it be that he rejects Corporatism and wants to build a nation that is at least trying to maintain some Christian values?
Quote from: clau clau on October 24, 2023, 05:05:19 AMQuote from: Mister Cowboy on October 24, 2023, 03:16:17 AMIt is getting quite heated here. I guess I should step in to remind everyone that we are all brother and sister Catholics here and we shouldn't hate each other even if we do have different opinions. In the sight of God we all belong to one big family so maybe it would be good to cool things down. So, what do you say?
Am I my brothers keeper? </sarcasm>
Wait a minute, I remember you! The other day... I asked how were you and... you didn't reply. I know talking to strangers is a bit shifty but that time I just wanted some company! You can still make it up to me by having a chat with me right now though. So, how about it? We can talk about anything under the sun.
Charlie Rose: Sir James Goldsmith Interview - 15.11.94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwmOkaKh3-s
What's this?
Ah in fairness its a bit shifty all the same, if your son wasn't going to the country I'd say he was looking out for the farmer but seeing as he has intentions to go their native country or close to it, he was doing it for himself. He'll go far.
Now in saying that, its hard to defend millennials who think they should be paid a huge minimum wage for a job that a monkey could do.£10 per hour is a fair wage for a very unskilled job. My son is doing a confined spaces course this week so he can work in the sewers relaying water pipes and he will get a 1k per week. He is guaranteed work as millennials just don't show up for work as they are hungover or all coked out of it. Also he is waiting on Air force to call him, when he went to the interview and fitness test, he was the only one who showed up out of a number of his age group. The kasaks aren't working any faster, its the locals who just don't bother to work at all.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 04:50:27 AMWhat were they then?
A mixed bag of Nigerians, Turks, 2 Bulgarians some Romanians my son thought were gypsies, and a German hippy woman who had a £50,000 car and was just there to enjoy nature and play fruit picker, but did not pick a lot of grapes.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 05:18:49 AMQuote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 04:12:20 AMWhy don't these wily foreigners manage to drive down the bonuses of investment bankers or London plumbers, or anything else?
They do. Wages across the board have barely risen for years as there's been an influx of cheap foreign labour into all sectors of the economy. And that's one of the aims behind the influx, to keep wages down.
Perhaps you could explain why President Putin doesn't import gangs of foreigners to undercut Russian wages?
Could it be that he rejects Corporatism and wants to build a nation that is at least trying to maintain some Christian values?
Wages certainly have risen in terms of buying power for most things.
Gen Z order take away food several nights per week, fly off on city breaks, piss money away on £1500 phones and tattoos.
You can get massive flat screen TVs for £500, music is free, films are free (used to be expensive to entertain yourself). My younger brother flies back from Australia nearly every year. In the past almost nobody could afford to do that. Brits went to Australia and you never saw them again.
Recently there has been inflation but for a good 20 years, food prices in the UK were absurdly cheap.
I notice that British people are travelling all over the world and setting up international schools in Kazakhstan and businesses in Dubai and buying property in Florida but even when they apply for work permits the poor old foreigners are not welcome.
There are two ways of looking at it.
1. You have the right to a well paid job. Your employer should nationalistically accept that you are not as productive as an Indian or Kazakh and increase your wages with inflation. The problem with this is that you end up like Britain in the 1970s with crappy cars and other manufactured goods that they Japanese can make much better.
2. You are worth at any given moment the wages that the market (supply and demand) will bear. For example I have seen jobs for data scientists that pay $400,000 in the UK. Some consultants with specialist knowledge of a banking system are making £1000 to £1500 per day for 5 days of work. I know someone from Belarus earning that kind of money.
No IT jobs paid $400,000 per year in the past.
Quote from: diaduit on October 24, 2023, 06:04:31 AMAh in fairness its a bit shifty all the same, if your son wasn't going to the country I'd say he was looking out for the farmer but seeing as he has intentions to go their native country or close to it, he was doing it for himself. He'll go far.
Now in saying that, its hard to defend millennials who think they should be paid a huge minimum wage for a job that a monkey could do.£10 per hour is a fair wage for a very unskilled job. My son is doing a confined spaces course this week so he can work in the sewers relaying water pipes and he will get a 1k per week. He is guaranteed work as millennials just don't show up for work as they are hungover or all coked out of it. Also he is waiting on Air force to call him, when he went to the interview and fitness test, he was the only one who showed up out of a number of his age group. The kasaks aren't working any faster, its the locals who just don't bother to work at all.
Trust me, those low-IQ fruit pickers are not particularly useful to him. For a start he will be in Astana. They could not afford to live within 50 miles of the capital city. If they had any power in Kazakhstan they would not be picking fruit in Kent.
He did it because they worked harder than everyone else and he respected that.
None is grown in polytunnels. They are vines planted about 5 years ago and they grow on the south facing slopes of the North Downs in Kent. Near to Boxley Village the first stop on the Canterbury pilgrimage.
The bottom line: those foreign workers should NOT have been there at all for any reason. The labor that's provided creates the value and should be renumerated justly. The government has the obligation to protect both the merchant and the worker, all the while seeking to find legitimately fair trade policies to find markets for the produce/end product. Austrian Economics is jew garbage.
Then no Americans should be running businesses, flying jets, operating mines and oil wells of doing anything else outside of America.
Unfortunately the world is not like this and has not been for the past 1000 years ever since Marco Polo went to China and took a Chinaman's job because the Khan thought him to be more trustworthy.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 08:28:42 AMThen no Americans should be running businesses, flying jets, operating mines and oil wells of doing anything else outside of America.
Unfortunately the world is not like this and has not been for the past 1000 years ever since Marco Polo went to China and took a Chinaman's job because the Khan thought him to be more trustworthy.
Not if they are deliberately being used to drive down wages - which I doubt applies to the sector you describe. Although I regularly hear middle class Americans in tech, for example, who complain that their jobs are being given to lower paid Indians recruited on some kind of special work visa.
And what has Marco Polo got to do with anything? I'm talking about corporate capitalism treating people like production units to be bought as cheaply as possible and to hell with the effect that has on human society.
Quote from: clau clau on October 24, 2023, 01:55:51 AMFirst they outsourced off the call centre workers and I did not speak up because I was not a call centre worker.
Then they outsourced the testers and I did not speak up because I was not a tester.
... and then they outsourced me.
http://blog.joeware.net/2007/05/09/871/
What good would speaking up do? The owners of the business have the right to employ who they want.
Call centre jobs are useless anyway. They will either come back to Britain where they need people to understand the customers or be replaced by robots.
One of the reasons I am encouraging him to go to Kazakhstan is because it is a foolish thing to make the same career decisions that your dad made 30 years ago.
Being a computer software developer made sense in the late 1980s. Being a Civil Servant with a gold plated final salary pension made sense in the 1950s. In 2023 neither of these are best moves for an 18 year old.
Working as a middle man in a bi-polar world is a smarter move especially when you speak two languages natively of the two opposing poles. Being on the edge of China and the middle of the belt and road project might also pay big dividends. All that manufactured stuff is coming down the new high-speed rail lines.
Most import of all, at 21 after 3 years in Astana he won't be wet behind the ears like a lot of university graduates are. Back in the 1990s I saw pretty ordinary Russians return to Russia and make a tidy fortune purely because they had some "experience" working in a bank in London. I am a big believer in taking risks and going out to the wild west or wild east to discover what you are good at.
Quote from: Heinrich on October 24, 2023, 07:43:51 AMThe bottom line: those foreign workers should NOT have been there at all for any reason. The labor that's provided creates the value and should be renumerated justly. The government has the obligation to protect both the merchant and the worker, all the while seeking to find legitimately fair trade policies to find markets for the produce/end product. Austrian Economics is jew garbage.
Exactly this.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 08:40:51 AMNot when they are deliberately being used to drive down wages - no.
Ha Ha,
Do you not think that a burger bar in Kazakhstan could charge more money without a McDonalds 200 feet away?
Do you not think that search engines companies all over the world and operating system manufacturers could have thrived without Google and Microsoft dominating the marketplace? Sometimes resorting to outright illegal practices.
How much would mobile phones cost if they said, "Proudly made in France", Italy or North Korea? How would you use them when you travelled abroad.
High wages equals higher costs. Try moving to protectionist Japan and feeding your family of 8 children on their locally managed farms and locally caught fish. You'd need to earn north of $200,000 a year. A box of grapes can be had in a British supermarket for £1. I reckon compared to wages that is the cheapest they ever were in human history.
Unless you have never bought a corporation's product or taken a cheap flight (airline staff are paid much less than they use to be because flights are much more competitively priced) then you are a navel-gazing idealistic fool not to mention a hypocrite.
If you were a software tester and your job was outsourced to India or a miner laid off in the 1980s by Thatcher then that is the way the cookie crumbles. You had all sort of other advantages due to the free flow of capital and capital goods. You just did not appreciate that some other schmuck was having to work harder or have his job outsourced.
Next will be robots that will take some jobs over and I am sure journalists and writers of trashy TV soaps will complain too.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 07:43:08 AMNone is grown in polytunnels. They are vines planted about 5 years ago and they grow on the south facing slopes of the North Downs in Kent. Near to Boxley Village the first stop on the Canterbury pilgrimage.
The Canterbury Pilgrims have all left. They've been priced out of the market.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 08:40:51 AMI'm talking about corporate capitalism treating people like production units to be bought as cheaply as possible and to hell with the effect that has on human society.
All capitalism in human history has done that where competitive pressure forced them to. Only in non-market economies where prices at decided by fiat can you overpay people routinely. Problem with that however is that you get either very high-prices or shortages or both.
When in all of human history did a business make itself uncompetitive by paying higher wages than it needed to?
In your stupid commie make-believe world Twitter would still have the 80% of the employees it fired (with no ill effect) farting around pretending to be working.
Here is the reality. My 18 year old British son, worked his ass off and not only kept his job but raised his value in the eyes of the foreman and that is exactly how you get on in life. Not by bitching that you are worth more money than someone is prepared to pay you.
If you were they would either not sack you or they would hire you back at a larger salary.
Quote from: Heinrich on October 24, 2023, 07:43:51 AMThe bottom line: those foreign workers should NOT have been there at all for any reason. The labor that's provided creates the value and should be renumerated justly. The government has the obligation to protect both the merchant and the worker, all the while seeking to find legitimately fair trade policies to find markets for the produce/end product. Austrian Economics is jew garbage.
Stupid. This would mean all machines are unjust. Washer-women unemployed. Pool secretaries and typists unemployed. Cashiers at the supermarket, unemployed. People who used to weld cars together, unemployed. When a robot can pick the grapes then the gang bosses and the Kazakhs will need to look for other work.
You need to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start over. If you are too old or have run out of energy then the bad news is that you are going to be poorer than you expected to be in retirement. But nothing should ever come with a government guarantee, because all that means is that the government is robbing some other poor schmuck to bail you out.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 07:26:17 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 04:50:27 AMWhat were they then?
A mixed bag of Nigerians, Turks, 2 Bulgarians some Romanians my son thought were gypsies, and a German hippy woman who had a £50,000 car and was just there to enjoy nature and play fruit picker, but did not pick a lot of grapes.
Alright, and your son advised the farmer to 'let them go' in favour of the Kazakhs.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 09:21:00 AMQuote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 07:26:17 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 04:50:27 AMWhat were they then?
A mixed bag of Nigerians, Turks, 2 Bulgarians some Romanians my son thought were gypsies, and a German hippy woman who had a £50,000 car and was just there to enjoy nature and play fruit picker, but did not pick a lot of grapes.
Alright, and your son advised the farmer to 'let them go' in favour of the Kazakhs.
Not the farmer. The man who had the responsibility to pick the grapes.
Farming does not work like you think it does. There are contracts and subcontracts.
And yes, my son said, if you want to get the contract finished on time I would keep the Kazakh team because they are working harder than the rest. He knew because he was collecting buckets from them and per man/woman they were delivering more buckets of cut grapes.
Imagine if you have a bunch of Irish navies who can dig tunnels faster than British navies and you are Isambard Kingdom Brunel. You are working to a fix price to complete the tunnel. Do you throw the investor's money down the drain by employing British navies?
And which middle manager do you want? The nationalist fool who will bankrupt you or the honest manager who tells you to keep the team of Irish navies who work harder and will get the job completed on time and to budget.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 09:04:20 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 08:40:51 AMI'm talking about corporate capitalism treating people like production units to be bought as cheaply as possible and to hell with the effect that has on human society.
All capitalism in human history has done that where competitive pressure forced them to. Only in non-market economies where prices at decided by fiat can you overpay people routinely. Problem with that however is that you get either very high-prices or shortages or both.
When in all of human history did a business make itself uncompetitive by paying higher wages than it needed to?
In your stupid commie make-believe world Twitter would still have the 80% of the employees it fired (with no ill effect) farting around pretending to be working.
Here is the reality. My 18 year old British son, worked his ass off and not only kept his job but raised his value in the eyes of the foreman and that is exactly how you get on in life. Not by bitching that you are worth more money than someone is prepared to pay you.
If you were they would either not sack you or they would hire you back at a larger salary.
Capitalism is a product of the Protestant Reformation. It has not existed all though history and neither have capitalist businesses.
I don't live in any kind of "commie world". Do you find it impossible to conceive of any alternative to capitalism other than communism?
You obviously favour capitalism. I don't. Following the Protestant Reformation, people were driven off the land and into the towns to be factory slaves in the new capitalist enterprises. This created fabulous wealth for some, horrible working conditions for many, tore apart traditional rural communities, fostered a culture of money-making above all things, encouraged competition and a 'me first' attitude to everything, and continues to encourage every wasteful and degrading indulgence in the name of profit.
Capitalism monetises human desire and brings out the worst in people - deliberately - because it's profitable.
Capitalism turned artisans into factory slaves and peasant farmers into landless labourers. Without the 'Protestant work ethic'. there would be no capitalism.
Funny to hear the Protestant work ethic being so roundly applauded here. Mary Harrington is right. Traditionalists aren't traditional enough.
Chinese peasants were not driven off their land.
They went to work in the factories by choice. As shitty as those job were in YOUR eyes they were superior to being a peasant scratching a living in some remote Chinese village.
QuoteThis created fabulous wealth for some, horrible working conditions for many, tore apart traditional rural communities, fostered a culture of money-making above all things, encouraged competition and a 'me first' attitude to everything, and continues to encourage every wasteful and degrading indulgence in the name of profit.
It also gave us sewerage systems, electric light, cars, jet travel, disease resistant crops, nitrogen fertilisers, air-conditioning, hot and cold running water, petroleum, telephones, anti-biotics, 3000 affordable calories a day, and a longer and healthier lives.
If the horrible working conditions were THAT horrible then the peasants could always go back to their plot of land and scratch out a living, after all there were many abandoned plots. But few did. They waited at the doors of the factory to be allowed to work. The factory job was preferable even with all of the disadvantages.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 09:30:46 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 09:21:00 AMQuote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 07:26:17 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 04:50:27 AMWhat were they then?
A mixed bag of Nigerians, Turks, 2 Bulgarians some Romanians my son thought were gypsies, and a German hippy woman who had a £50,000 car and was just there to enjoy nature and play fruit picker, but did not pick a lot of grapes.
Alright, and your son advised the farmer to 'let them go' in favour of the Kazakhs.
Not the farmer. The man who had the responsibility to pick the grapes.
Farming does not work like you think it does. There are contracts and subcontracts.
And yes, my son said, if you want to get the contract finished on time I would keep the Kazakh team because they are working harder than the rest. He knew because he was collecting buckets from them and per man/woman they were delivering more buckets of cut grapes.
Imagine if you have a bunch of Irish navies who can dig tunnels faster than British navies and you are Isambard Kingdom Brunel. You are working to a fix price to complete the tunnel. Do you throw the investor's money down the drain by employing British navies?
And which middle manager do you want? The nationalist fool who will bankrupt you or the honest manager who tells you to keep the team of Irish navies who work harder and will get the job completed on time and to budget.
You're right to be proud of your son. He knows how to function in a capitalist society. You've been a good teacher. He should do well.
As for the Irish navies, you've set this whole question in the context of capitalism. The answers are obvious if seen from that point of view.
Yes the capitalism that has accomplished the modern world.
As opposed to your completely fanciful alternative that exists only in a parallel universe and for all we know would have ended up in the global famine of 1818 after the Tambora eruption where 3/4 of the world population would have died because their agriculture was less sophisticated.
https://theecologist.org/2014/jun/18/tambora-eruption-and-human-history
We cannot test the flaws of your fanciful alternative system of course because it does not exist. It's all just glorious sunlit uplands, the Angelus at noon and no crop failures, childhood diseases, smallpox and foot rot.
Before you slag off capitalism too much consider that you and just about every human alive today is richer, better fed and will live longer lives than their grandparents. They are also better travelled, have the opportunity to be better educated by far and have access to a huge library of all human knowledge 99% of it for free.
If they are more addicted to porn and drugs that is mostly the fault of themselves and their parents. Other people lived in the same world at the same time and managed to control themselves and not become degenerates.
What happened to St. Bernadette's father when he was injured and could not work? The whole family was made to live in a damp hovel, which made her sick, because the agrarian society they lived in lacked the wealth to house the family properly, capitalism was only beginning to put France to work. The entire system was still very much based on Catholic France especially in places like Lourdes.
The local Catholic priest did not spring to the rescue. Neither did all the Catholics in town throw in some francs and bail them out.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 09:48:29 AMChinese peasants were not driven off their land.
They went to work in the factories by choice. As shitty as those job were in YOUR eyes they were superior to being a peasant scratching a living in some remote Chinese village.
QuoteThis created fabulous wealth for some, horrible working conditions for many, tore apart traditional rural communities, fostered a culture of money-making above all things, encouraged competition and a 'me first' attitude to everything, and continues to encourage every wasteful and degrading indulgence in the name of profit.
It also gave us sewerage systems, electric light, cars, jet travel, disease resistant crops, nitrogen fertilisers, air-conditioning, hot and cold running water, petroleum, telephones, anti-biotics, 3000 affordable calories a day, and a longer and healthier lives.
If the horrible working conditions were THAT horrible then the peasants could always go back to their plot of land and scratch out a living, after all there were many abandoned plots. But few did. They waited at the doors of the factory to be allowed to work. The factory job was preferable even with all of the disadvantages.
Chairman Mao had practically destroyed the countryside by collectivising agriculture during the Great Leap Forward when millions died of starvation as a result. When the Chinese invited the corporations into China, the Chinese countryside had nowhere near recovered and many peasants had no choice but to become factory slaves. They have to leave their children behind in the villages and can only visit for two weeks a year.
And the peasants of England, and the rest of Britain too, could not go back to their "plot of land" if they changed their minds about factory work. Following the Reformation, they were driven off the land and into the towns and cities. Their land was taken from them.
How much of England do you think the English people own?
Utter cobblers. Mao died decades ago. 500 million Chinese factory workers still return to their ancestral small holdings and villages where they scratched a living until the opportunity to get a factory job came along.
Every Chinese New Year they all go back for a few days rest.
Nobody has told any Chinaman in the last 40 years that he is not able to remain on his small holding and turn it into a productive little farm and take his produce to the nearest town to sell. They prefer to work in a factory.
And of course to run a small holding efficiently you need the pesticides, gasoline, rotavators, tractors, steel wire, animal traps, fertilisers, disease testing kits and anti-biotics that only capitalist factories can produce.
List of famines in China, part of the series of lists of disasters in China. Between 108 BC and 1911 AD, there were no fewer than 1,828 recorded famines in China, or once nearly every year in one province or another. The famines varied in severity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines_in_China
Since the start of Chinese Capitalism they have not had a famine.
In the Great Leap Forward Private farming was prohibited, and those people who engaged in it were persecuted and labelled counter-revolutionaries. In short, exactly what a numpty like you would do to the Chapel Down Farm, if you had political power, by stopping them employing the most productive workers to pick their grapes.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:47:47 PMQuote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
They refuse to work for the low wages that the migrants are willing to accept?
No. Wages in WI are competitive with wages in other fields. The migrants are dumb and won't work for dirt wages either. Most whites are busy chasing their "dream job."
QuoteThere are two ways of looking at it.
1. You have the right to a well paid job. Your employer should nationalistically accept that you are not as productive as an Indian or Kazakh and increase your wages with inflation. The problem with this is that you end up like Britain in the 1970s with crappy cars and other manufactured goods that they Japanese can make much better.
2. You are worth at any given moment the wages that the market (supply and demand) will bear. For example I have seen jobs for data scientists that pay $400,000 in the UK. Some consultants with specialist knowledge of a banking system are making £1000 to £1500 per day for 5 days of work. I know someone from Belarus earning that kind of money.
Third way: Put a flat 10% tariff on imports. Replace all taxes with a flat sales tax. Create a solid money system where the dollars grow 2% per year. Interest rates float freely. Eliminate all socialist systems including welfare, medical, and retirement. You're young and don't want to work an entry level job and learn skills and responsibility? Then you starve, or have to talk to the priest to get aid from Catholic Relief Societies, and even then, the pastor will give you limited help and tell you to work.
Then shutdown immigration and temporary workers. Importing foreigners is a band aid to socialism and the final endpoint is that your culture will be replaced and you'll end up with a $h!th0le country. Of course if Toyota, Honda, and Siemens want to build plants in your zero tax country, no problem. And you allow some residency permits for their managers.
There's also the destruction of Western education and the Cultural Marxist attack on masculinity and femininity, ironically coming about because we allowed jewish bolsheviks into the country.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 09:39:52 AMQuote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 09:04:20 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 08:40:51 AMI'm talking about corporate capitalism treating people like production units to be bought as cheaply as possible and to hell with the effect that has on human society.
All capitalism in human history has done that where competitive pressure forced them to. Only in non-market economies where prices at decided by fiat can you overpay people routinely. Problem with that however is that you get either very high-prices or shortages or both.
When in all of human history did a business make itself uncompetitive by paying higher wages than it needed to?
In your stupid commie make-believe world Twitter would still have the 80% of the employees it fired (with no ill effect) farting around pretending to be working.
Here is the reality. My 18 year old British son, worked his ass off and not only kept his job but raised his value in the eyes of the foreman and that is exactly how you get on in life. Not by bitching that you are worth more money than someone is prepared to pay you.
If you were they would either not sack you or they would hire you back at a larger salary.
Capitalism is a product of the Protestant Reformation. It has not existed all though history and neither have capitalist businesses.
I don't live in any kind of "commie world". Do you find it impossible to conceive of any alternative to capitalism other than communism?
You obviously favour capitalism. I don't. Following the Protestant Reformation, people were driven off the land and into the towns to be factory slaves in the new capitalist enterprises. This created fabulous wealth for some, horrible working conditions for many, tore apart traditional rural communities, fostered a culture of money-making above all things, encouraged competition and a 'me first' attitude to everything, and continues to encourage every wasteful and degrading indulgence in the name of profit.
Capitalism monetises human desire and brings out the worst in people - deliberately - because it's profitable.
Capitalism turned artisans into factory slaves and peasant farmers into landless labourers. Without the 'Protestant work ethic'. there would be no capitalism.
Funny to hear the Protestant work ethic being so roundly applauded here. Mary Harrington is right. Traditionalists aren't traditional enough.
Capitalism is basically no or less government involvement, letting the market sort itself out. And you sounds like a communist/socialist if you like government involvement. How were people driven off their land? Are you sure they didn't sell it so they could have an "easier" life in the city? I sure see the older people around us doing that (we live in the rural) because making a living as a farmer is real tough, especially with the government's involvement and quotas. If you want to operate a dairy farm, you have to pay so much to the government, it might not be worth it even running the farm.
Capitalism is good because it allows people to pick and choose instead of big daddy government telling them what they should choose. Automation is good because products can be cheaper and it makes society productive. There are too many people these days who are unproductive (too many people in white-collar jobs, women in the workplace).
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 10:03:42 AMQuote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 09:48:29 AMChinese peasants were not driven off their land.
They went to work in the factories by choice. As shitty as those job were in YOUR eyes they were superior to being a peasant scratching a living in some remote Chinese village.
QuoteThis created fabulous wealth for some, horrible working conditions for many, tore apart traditional rural communities, fostered a culture of money-making above all things, encouraged competition and a 'me first' attitude to everything, and continues to encourage every wasteful and degrading indulgence in the name of profit.
It also gave us sewerage systems, electric light, cars, jet travel, disease resistant crops, nitrogen fertilisers, air-conditioning, hot and cold running water, petroleum, telephones, anti-biotics, 3000 affordable calories a day, and a longer and healthier lives.
If the horrible working conditions were THAT horrible then the peasants could always go back to their plot of land and scratch out a living, after all there were many abandoned plots. But few did. They waited at the doors of the factory to be allowed to work. The factory job was preferable even with all of the disadvantages.
Chairman Mao had practically destroyed the countryside by collectivising agriculture during the Great Leap Forward when millions died of starvation as a result. When the Chinese invited the corporations into China, the Chinese countryside had nowhere near recovered and many peasants had no choice but to become factory slaves. They have to leave their children behind in the villages and can only visit for two weeks a year.
And the peasants of England, and the rest of Britain too, could not go back to their "plot of land" if they changed their minds about factory work. Following the Reformation, they were driven off the land and into the towns and cities. Their land was taken from them.
How much of England do you think the English people own?
And what would you have done after Mao destroyed China?
What then happens when the Japanese cars are better than the British cars even with the 10% tariff?
The British workers are unemployed regardless and not even the hardest working and most skilled of them can move to Japan or even France to make slightly less shit French cars.
Same thing with AI and Machine Learning currently in Britain. It is a growing industry and potentially going to be a fountain of foreign export earning for British companies. In order to be successful the bosses of those small companies are trying to hire the best people from all over the world. Open Banking technology is another huge British success where we have beaten the USA and the Chinese to the punch.
The trouble with your closed shop mentality is that the super clever people like Elon Musk will not stay in Africa, they will head off to where the capital is available and people are willing to risk it to make profits. You'd have to take his passport away, but he would then not be motivated to work inside South Africa because you could NEVER make it as ideal as the USA for his vision.
This is how the spice trade happened, how the silk road came about and is arguably the beginning of ALL trade through human history. Risk capital chasing large profits. Psychotic hard workers and risk takers bootstrapping new technologies and provoking massive changes in the world.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 04:06:08 AMQuote from: Mister Cowboy on October 24, 2023, 03:16:17 AMIt is getting quite heated here. I guess I should step in to remind everyone that we are all brother and sister Catholics here and we shouldn't hate each other even if we do have different opinions. In the sight of God we all belong to one big family so maybe it would be good to cool things down. So, what do you say?
I don't hate Greg. Can't speak for him though ...
I don't hate me either.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:56:35 PMQuote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers........
....... All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
This is bugging me. I didn't properly take this in before.
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
I'm sure it wouldn't have bugged you if both groups of people were the same ethnicites/nationalities. Better yet, if they automated the grape-picking process, both parties wouldn't have jobs in this situation ;D but it would make grapes wayyy cheaper. Are you saying quota hires are ethical?
QuoteWhat then happens when the Japanese cars are better than the British cars even with the 10% tariff?
That's why you have a FLAT tariff. You don't allow the government to use their god-like omniscient powers and pick "winners and losers". In certain areas, even with a 10% tariff, you still can't compete. However under my ideal world which has zero chance of coming about, considering Toyota could build a plant in the US, pay zero tariff, zero shipping, and pay zero corporate income tax and zero payroll taxes, Toyota would rush to build car factories in the US. They are already here.
QuoteRisk capital chasing large profits.
Would you invest in a country that has zero taxes on your investment, where the currency only grows 2% per year by statute?
There's a problem with installing socialism, and then trying to band-aid it. You first have to eliminate the socialism.
Quote from: MushroomRooster on October 24, 2023, 10:54:28 AMCapitalism is basically no or less government involvement, letting the market sort itself out.
Capitalism has never been about no or less government and definitely isn't now. Capitalism absolutely depends upon the state to promote its interests.
For example, the British government stole the means of producing whisky from out of the hands of the people by force, making it illegal to own a whisky still, imprisoning those who disobeyed, transported them to Australia etc. They did this so that whisky production could be concentrated in larger more profitable enterprises owned by their capitalist business friends. Today, the production of all whisky in the world is controlled by two global corporations.
The primary duty of governments in a capitalist society is to safeguard and promote the interests of capitalism. This involves taking the means of production out of the hands of the people - with the full weight of the law behind them - and giving it to their corporatist buddies. Then the people become workers in the factories.
This process has been repeated endlessly. Capitalism needs the state to function.
QuoteAnd you sounds like a communist/socialist if you like government involvement.
I don't want government involvement in any aspect of society other than protecting the population from external and internal aggression, In other words - a military and a legal justice system.
QuoteHow were people driven off their land? Are you sure they didn't sell it so they could have an "easier" life in the city? I sure see the older people around us doing that (we live in the rural) because making a living as a farmer is real tough, especially with the government's involvement and quotas. If you want to operate a dairy farm, you have to pay so much to the government, it might not be worth it even running the farm.
Capitalism is good because it allows people to pick and choose instead of big daddy government telling them what they should choose. Automation is good because products can be cheaper and it makes society productive. There are too many people these days who are unproductive (too many people in white-collar jobs, women in the workplace).
They were literally driven off the land.
How many of the problems that small formers and businessmen have today are due to interference from the state?
The problem is that ordinary people have no control over the means of production, distribution and exchange. Either the capitalists own and control these things, or communists states do, or try to.
I'm talking about a system which puts production back in the hands of the people - not capitalists corporations and definitely not communist governments.
That's all. In the meantime, would it be impossible to design a tax system which favoured small, independent businesses, family farms and producers, as well those involved in all the transporting of goods and selling of them that has to go on? Because once the corporations produce everything and control all the processes, there will be hardly any choice left.
Quote from: MushroomRooster on October 24, 2023, 11:04:13 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:56:35 PMQuote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers........
....... All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
This is bugging me. I didn't properly take this in before.
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
I'm sure it wouldn't have bugged you if both groups of people were the same ethnicites/nationalities. Better yet, if they automated the grape-picking process, both parties wouldn't have jobs in this situation ;D but it would make grapes wayyy cheaper. Are you saying quota hires are ethical?
You're sure are you?
I take it you approve of creating bidding wars for work between different ethnic groups? Do you think this improves or undermines relations between them?
What does Catholic Social Teaching say about all of this?
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 11:23:43 AMQuote from: MushroomRooster on October 24, 2023, 10:54:28 AMCapitalism is basically no or less government involvement, letting the market sort itself out.
Capitalism has never been about no or less government and definitely isn't now. Capitalism absolutely depends upon the state to promote its interests.
For example, the British government stole the means of producing whisky from out of the hands of the people by force, making it illegal to own a whisky still, imprisoning those who disobeyed, transported them to Australia etc. They did this so that whisky production could be concentrated in larger more profitable enterprises owned by their capitalist business friends. Today, the production of all whisky in the world is controlled by two global corporations.
The primary duty of governments in a capitalist society is to safeguard and promote the interests of capitalism. This involves taking the means of production out of the hands of the people - with the full weight of the law behind them - and giving it to their corporatist buddies. Then the people become workers in the factories.
This process has been repeated endlessly. Capitalism needs the state to function.
QuoteAnd you sounds like a communist/socialist if you like government involvement.
I don't want government involvement in any aspect of society other than protecting the population from external and internal aggression, In other words - a military and a legal justice system.
QuoteHow were people driven off their land? Are you sure they didn't sell it so they could have an "easier" life in the city? I sure see the older people around us doing that (we live in the rural) because making a living as a farmer is real tough, especially with the government's involvement and quotas. If you want to operate a dairy farm, you have to pay so much to the government, it might not be worth it even running the farm.
Capitalism is good because it allows people to pick and choose instead of big daddy government telling them what they should choose. Automation is good because products can be cheaper and it makes society productive. There are too many people these days who are unproductive (too many people in white-collar jobs, women in the workplace).
They were literally driven off the land.
How many of the problems that small formers and businessmen have today are due to interference from the state?
The problem is that ordinary people have no control over the means of production, distribution and exchange. Either the capitalists own and control these things, or communists states do, or try to.
I'm talking about a system which puts production back in the hands of the people - not capitalists corporations and definitely not communist governments.
That's all. In the meantime, would it be impossible to design a tax system which favoured small, independent businesses, family farms and producers, as well those involved in all the transporting of goods and selling of them that has to go on? Because once the corporations produce everything and control all the processes, there will be hardly any choice left.
Capitalism works when the government doesn't get involved! When the government does get involved, you get socialism/communism. "Laissez-faire ('let do') is a type of economic system in which transactions between private groups of people are free from any form of economic interventionism (such as subsidies or regulations). Capitalism does not need the state to function. Bartering has always been a thing.
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/j008htDistributism_Encyclicals_Odou.htm
In the Greg's son's situation, how would you go about making sure that the English workers would have their jobs?
I doubt they were "driven off the land" if they owned their property.
I know that if the government didn't regulate the dairy industry in Canada in the way they've been, dairy products would be wayy cheaper. On top of that, it's illegal to sell and distribute raw dairy. Capitalism is neutral and works because I can go to the store to buy tomatoes if my neighbour is selling them for too much. The province that I live in has high taxation and people are moving elsewhere. When we got our car as a gift from my father-in-law from another province, we still had to pay tax on it. Also, the car insurance is province-owned, meaning you don't have a choice to shop around. Overall, I think the government's involvement at this point is harmful and the taxation they do in Canada is basically theft.
I think buying from family farms for food is great because there wouldn't be a middle man. It just you need a permit and go through the loopholes. But it's the big corporations that have all the equipment to make it easier and faster to harvest the food. It's all about what's cheaper for people. We sell our eggs to our neighbour and the store is much farther for them. We probably won't be able to make a living selling eggs though.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 11:33:02 AMQuote from: MushroomRooster on October 24, 2023, 11:04:13 AMQuote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:56:35 PMQuote from: Greg on October 23, 2023, 12:07:34 PMHe got a gang of Kazakh pickers 2 extra weeks of work today. He said to the foreman "what is the point of keeping the other people when they are picking half of the grapes that the Kazakhs are" and the foreman took his advice and kept the Kazakh workers........
....... All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
This is bugging me. I didn't properly take this in before.
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
I'm sure it wouldn't have bugged you if both groups of people were the same ethnicites/nationalities. Better yet, if they automated the grape-picking process, both parties wouldn't have jobs in this situation ;D but it would make grapes wayyy cheaper. Are you saying quota hires are ethical?
You're sure are you?
I take it you approve of creating bidding wars for work between different ethnic groups? Do you think this improves or undermines relations between them?
I think people can hire who they want. If they work better with a certain ethnic group, then so be it. And different ethnic groups living together in harmony is not really possible because they tend to segregate themselves anyways.
Quote from: Heinrich on October 23, 2023, 04:41:28 PMShe's gotta point.
No she doesn't.
Her point is exactly why the Canadian military is an absolute laughing stock among NATO - because we have to "buy local"
QuoteYour son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
The lazy, fat, drooling Englishmen lost the jobs themselves by being lazy, fat, drooling Englishmen. All Greg's son did was point it out. Perfectly ethical.
Also, me thinks you need to go meditate on Matthew 20
QuoteCheap foreign workers drive down wages. Obviously you approve of this.
Who wouldn't? What you're advocating for is basically Communism.
QuoteThat's the behaviour of your son that I think is questionable, ethically.
Your conclusion is racist, basically. Greg's son saw people doing it better, pointed it out to the owner, and the owner made a sound business decision.
QuoteBut actually persuading a farmer to sack local workers and employ cheap foreign labour in their place is the point here.
They were there legally. This point is completely moot.
QuoteYour son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and employ cheap foreign workers.
Then the English (and I say this as the son of at least 8 generations of Englishmen from the Isle of Wight) shouldn't be such lazy slobs. Find me a group of grape-picking Englishmen who work as hard as the Kazakhs who are out of work and starving, and I'll eat my hat.
QuoteListen to yourself, accusing people of being losers in life because they want to earn some spare cash working in the fields, as English people have always done until gangs of foreign labourers started arriving and denying them this work.
You're full of bullshit, ain't ya? If Englishman wanted to earn a few extra pounds to support their family, have them start a website design business, or a whole host of online opportunities.
QuoteHow dare you suggest that I "hate hard working Kazakh fruit pickers"?
YOu certainly imply it and dont even pretend that you don't
Quotewhy President Putin doesn't import gangs of foreigners
Tell me you've never been to Moscow without telling me you've never been to Moscow
Quote from: HeinrichThe bottom line: those foreign workers should NOT have been there at all for any reason.
Bullshit - I guarantee most were legal. This isnt America, the rest of us don't have your issues.
Awkard - No offense, but you're a woman are you not? Women are always harping on this equality bullshit. They sit in the office, do their nails, text, harp with their girlfriends then get pissed off that the men who spent the last 6 hours working get paid more. That's essentially what you're advocating.
Quote from: james03 on October 24, 2023, 11:09:25 AMQuoteWhat then happens when the Japanese cars are better than the British cars even with the 10% tariff?
That's why you have a FLAT tariff. You don't allow the government to use their god-like omniscient powers and pick "winners and losers". In certain areas, even with a 10% tariff, you still can't compete. However under my ideal world which has zero chance of coming about, considering Toyota could build a plant in the US, pay zero tariff, zero shipping, and pay zero corporate income tax and zero payroll taxes, Toyota would rush to build car factories in the US. They are already here.
QuoteRisk capital chasing large profits.
Would you invest in a country that has zero taxes on your investment, where the currency only grows 2% per year by statute?
There's a problem with installing socialism, and then trying to band-aid it. You first have to eliminate the socialism.
I remember years ago one had a choice of a VW Polo built by Germans in Germany or the same one built in Bulgaria. The second hand car dealers knew the VIN numbers. The German built Polos were much more expensive. Same car exactly otherwise.
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 24, 2023, 01:41:07 PMQuote from: Heinrich on October 23, 2023, 04:41:28 PMShe's gotta point.
No she doesn't.
Her point is exactly why the Canadian military is an absolute laughing stock among NATO - because we have to "buy local"
QuoteYour son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behaviour?
The lazy, fat, drooling Englishmen lost the jobs themselves by being lazy, fat, drooling Englishmen. All Greg's son did was point it out. Perfectly ethical.
Also, me thinks you need to go meditate on Matthew 20
QuoteCheap foreign workers drive down wages. Obviously you approve of this.
Who wouldn't? What you're advocating for is basically Communism.
QuoteThat's the behaviour of your son that I think is questionable, ethically.
Your conclusion is racist, basically. Greg's son saw people doing it better, pointed it out to the owner, and the owner made a sound business decision.
QuoteBut actually persuading a farmer to sack local workers and employ cheap foreign labour in their place is the point here.
They were there legally. This point is completely moot.
QuoteYour son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and employ cheap foreign workers.
Then the English (and I say this as the son of at least 8 generations of Englishmen from the Isle of Wight) shouldn't be such lazy slobs. Find me a group of grape-picking Englishmen who work as hard as the Kazakhs who are out of work and starving, and I'll eat my hat.
QuoteListen to yourself, accusing people of being losers in life because they want to earn some spare cash working in the fields, as English people have always done until gangs of foreign labourers started arriving and denying them this work.
You're full of bullshit, ain't ya? If Englishman wanted to earn a few extra pounds to support their family, have them start a website design business, or a whole host of online opportunities.
QuoteHow dare you suggest that I "hate hard working Kazakh fruit pickers"?
YOu certainly imply it and dont even pretend that you don't
Quotewhy President Putin doesn't import gangs of foreigners
Tell me you've never been to Moscow without telling me you've never been to Moscow
Quote from: HeinrichThe bottom line: those foreign workers should NOT have been there at all for any reason.
Bullshit - I guarantee most were legal. This isnt America, the rest of us don't have your issues.
Awkard - No offense, but you're a woman are you not? Women are always harping on this equality bullshit. They sit in the office, do their nails, text, harp with their girlfriends then get pissed off that the men who spent the last 6 hours working get paid more. That's essentially what you're advocating.
Your accusations of racism are the same as those that are made about anyone who objects to free movement of labour. Wages in the UK have barely risen for a couple of decades while foreign workers have been employed throughout the economy.
If you're going to insult people who point out the connection, then you must agree with using foreign workers to keep down wages.
QuoteWages in the UK have barely risen for a couple of decades while foreign workers have been employed throughout the economy.
That can be said anywhere. In my little neck of ex-Yugoslavia it's the same, and I can tell you, we ain't even bringing in foreign workers. So what then?
To dumb down a massive problem by just blaming it on foreigners is basically racist. It's so simplistic it beggars belief that you would offer that as the sole cause of a massive, worldwide economic phenomenon.
At least go after the Jews and the central banks instead of ripping on poor, (legal) immigrants.
Question for Awkward.
Cowboy goes to farmer or farmer proposes to man and says pay me 70 pounds for every lost sheep I find and 300 pounds for every lost steer on your vast ranch. Farmer agrees. Cowboy only manages to find 1 steer two sheep.
Another cowboy the farmer offers the same dead to is a foreigner. He finds 3 sheep and 2 steers. Should he earn more money. Should the farmer fire the first cowboy to incentivise the better cowboy to search everywhere on the ranch?
This is the basis on which the entire sales industry works. Bad salespeople are fired and hopefully better salespeople take over their jobs.
When diaduit posts again that she's worried about the large numbers of immigrants arriving in Ireland, what are you lot going to say to her?
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 01:44:37 PMQuote from: james03 on October 24, 2023, 11:09:25 AMQuoteWhat then happens when the Japanese cars are better than the British cars even with the 10% tariff?
That's why you have a FLAT tariff. You don't allow the government to use their god-like omniscient powers and pick "winners and losers". In certain areas, even with a 10% tariff, you still can't compete. However under my ideal world which has zero chance of coming about, considering Toyota could build a plant in the US, pay zero tariff, zero shipping, and pay zero corporate income tax and zero payroll taxes, Toyota would rush to build car factories in the US. They are already here.
QuoteRisk capital chasing large profits.
Would you invest in a country that has zero taxes on your investment, where the currency only grows 2% per year by statute?
There's a problem with installing socialism, and then trying to band-aid it. You first have to eliminate the socialism.
I remember years ago one had a choice of a VW Polo built by Germans in Germany or the same one built in Bulgaria. The second hand car dealers knew the VIN numbers. The German built Polos were much more expensive. Same car exactly otherwise.
My buddy used to have a Volvo XC90, sold it and refused to buy Volvo again.
I asked him why
Him: "They started making it in China"
lol, as if every single piece wasn't made in China already. Fool.
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 24, 2023, 02:37:34 PMQuoteWages in the UK have barely risen for a couple of decades while foreign workers have been employed throughout the economy.
That can be said anywhere. In my little neck of ex-Yugoslavia it's the same, and I can tell you, we ain't even bringing in foreign workers. So what then?
To dumb down a massive problem by just blaming it on foreigners is basically racist. It's so simplistic it beggars belief that you would offer that as the sole cause of a massive, worldwide economic phenomenon.
At least go after the Jews and the central banks instead of ripping on poor, (legal) immigrants.
For goodness sake. Stop making hysterical accusations I'm the woman, remember. Being hysterical is what
we do. And Greg is just as bad.
I'm not blaming "it" or anything on the foreign workers. It's global capitalism that's the problem, as I've been saying.
But you love capitalism and so I must be a communist for criticising it.
Have all the young people from your part of the world left to go and be cheap labour somewhere else?
Everyone is a foreign worker in the USA. I don't think a single American has any permission to be there from the native Indians. On top of that Silicon Valley is powered by B Visas. Visit any city and your taxi is as likely as not to be driven by someone who came in on a green card or similar.
Largest and most successful used car business in the UK is run by Indian immigrants as are many other businesses.
What makes me laugh about Awkward is that she thinks it is still 1960s and there is any chance of these people going honor being sent home. One is the blooming prime minister for goodness sake. They are part of the landscape. Better get used to it.
If they left you would just have a bunch of binge drinking tattooed morons staring into space.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 02:37:43 PMQuestion for Awkward.
Cowboy goes to farmer or farmer proposes to man and says pay me 70 pounds for every lost sheep I find and 300 pounds for every lost steer on your vast ranch. Farmer agrees. Cowboy only manages to find 1 steer two sheep.
Another cowboy the farmer offers the same dead to is a foreigner. He finds 3 sheep and 2 steers. Should he earn more money. Should the farmer fire the first cowboy to incentivise the better cowboy to search everywhere on the ranch?
This is the basis on which the entire sales industry works. Bad salespeople are fired and hopefully better salespeople take over their jobs.
What if the first cowboy lives locally and has a family to support? And the second cowboy is just passing through?
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 02:37:43 PMCowboy goes to farmer or farmer proposes to man and says pay me 70 pounds for every lost sheep I find and 300 pounds for every lost steer on your vast ranch. Farmer agrees. Cowboy only manages to find 1 steer two sheep.
Another cowboy the farmer offers the same dead to is a foreigner. He finds 3 sheep and 2 steers. Should he earn more money. Should the farmer fire the first cowboy to incentivise the better cowboy to search everywhere on the ranch?
A politician approaches the farmer and says that if the farmer votes for the politician, the politician will open his country's borders, and the farmer will have access to "cowboys" who are willing to do the job for 1/10th the price.
These new "cowboys" will adapt, in time, to expect the same living standard as natives of the farmer's country, but for the first few years, they'll be simply too happy merely to live under the rule of law, to have indoor plumbing, and to be paid in a currency with a relatively stable value. These first few years will be immensely profitable for the farmer, and after his new "cowboys" start demanding a living wage, there will be a fresh new crop of "cowboys" willing to work for 1/10, the politician assures the farmer.
The farmer, whose greed is greater than his love for his country, is overwhelmingly favorable to the idea.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 02:45:21 PMEveryone is a foreign worker in the USA. I don't think a single American has any permission to be there from the native Indians. On top of that Silicon Valley is powered by B Visas. Visit any city and your taxi is as likely as not to be driven by someone who came in on a green card or similar.
Largest and most successful used car business in the UK is run by Indian immigrants as are many other businesses.
What makes me laugh about Awkward is that she thinks it is still 1960s and there is any chance of these people going honor being sent home. One is the blooming prime minister for goodness sake. They are part of the landscape. Better get used to it.
If they left your would just have a bunch of binge drinking tattooed morons staring into space.
What a horrible thing to say.
You're almost as hysterically enraged as LausTibiChriste.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 02:44:05 PMIt's global capitalism that's the problem, as I've been saying.
Has sod all to do with global capitalism.
Local British wine maker is picking a crop cheaply as possible so it can compete with wines around the world brought into Britain to be sold in Britain. One of the cost inputs is the labour to pick the grapes in tight time window and speed up or slow down due to weather conditions.
Laws of this country as many countries allow the import of labour from other countries. Without that crops would rot in the fields and farmers would face financial ruin.
British people do not want to work in the fields 9 hours a day for 10 pound per hour.
If you banned wine imports, you'd have less consumer choice, higher prices due to less efficient lazy workers and the loss of 25% of the crop
"British wine" :lol:
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 02:44:05 PMHave all the young people from your part of the world left to go and be cheap labour somewhere else?
Nope. Tons of startups here.
Actually had my beard trimmed today by a Ghanian. In Eastern Europe.
Where does that fall in your eugenic profile of work worthiness?
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 24, 2023, 03:02:00 PMActually had my beard trimmed today by a Ghanian. In Eastern Europe.
Where does that fall in your eugenic profile of work worthiness?
Your country imports foreigners to do basic grooming tasks?
I'm not sure it makes the point you want to make. :rofl:
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 24, 2023, 03:05:31 PMQuote from: LausTibiChriste on October 24, 2023, 03:02:00 PMActually had my beard trimmed today by a Ghanian. In Eastern Europe.
Where does that fall in your eugenic profile of work worthiness?
Your country imports foreigners to do basic grooming tasks?
I'm not sure it makes the point you want to make. :rofl:
They're not imported, they came here legally. And my point is Greg's...if someone will do the same job for cheaper, hire the cheaper guy.
Awkward is being all sanctimonious saying we need to hire the local. Then tries to knock the country that I (legally) immigrated too by implying they're the poor illegal immigrants when in fact they're not. That was my point.
You Americans really need to get your head out of your own ass, it's pathetic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9NQ6VEciFk
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 24, 2023, 03:10:43 PMAwkward is being all sanctimonious saying we need to hire the local.
Is that really the point being made?
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on October 24, 2023, 03:10:43 PMYou Americans really need to get your head out of your own ass, it's pathetic.
We know the effects of unlimited immigration because our megacorporations perfected the practice of using immigrants to weaken the bargaining position of native workers.
Quote from: clau clau on October 24, 2023, 05:43:25 AMCharlie Rose: Sir James Goldsmith Interview - 15.11.94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwmOkaKh3-s
Why does the American workers 'right' to a job trump the non American shareholders right to make a profit? Or indeed to offer a Chinese worker a job.
We have seen what happens with protectionism. British Leyland in the 1970s. Those cars were utter piles of dog shit. The Chinese are much better at making stuff.
I don't subscribe to the idea that due to a flag and a national anthem that I have any loyalty to a binge drinking, Nectar point collecting, British apostate from protestantism over and above a Vietnamese or Chinese pagan. 80% of these thick assholes wanted me locked up and jabbed 2 years ago and now I have to buy their shitty goods and services because government restricts my choice of whom to buy from?
I wouldn't fight for this faggot loving nation, so am damned if I am going to buy British.
If Britain was a Catholic nation I probably would. Just as I have pulled strings to land Catholics jobs in the past.
If Diaduit wants to buy an Irish made TV then she should try to find one but consider there is a 2 out of 3 chance that she is supporting a worker who voted to legalised abortions in Ireland.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 03:39:29 PMWhy does the American workers 'right' to a job trump the non American shareholders right to make a profit?
https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html
or if that's too modern, then:
https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 24, 2023, 03:43:44 PMQuote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 03:39:29 PMWhy does the American workers 'right' to a job trump the non American shareholders right to make a profit?
https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html
or if that's too modern, then:
https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html
What a relief. Now we can see what the Church says.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 02:37:53 PMWhen diaduit posts again that she's worried about the large numbers of immigrants arriving in Ireland, what are you lot going to say to her?
To be fair, I didn't complain about foreigners taking our jobs, I complained and still stand by, they are not here to work, they are hear to kill us when the Caliphate or whatever they are called tell them to.
Q: What country had the highest standard of living in the late 1930's?
Capitalism is to economics what Darwinism is to biology. Economics is a moral science, not a material one. For those Catholics here who advocate for the mighty laissez faire system, think again. You are part of the problem.
A: NAZI Germany. A labor based, no usury, protectionist system. High wages, high value labor, goods. Too bad those odious elites there Effed it up with military spending and, well, war.
Quote from: MushroomRooster on October 24, 2023, 01:02:19 PMQuote from: awkward customer on October 24, 2023, 11:23:43 AMQuote from: MushroomRooster on October 24, 2023, 10:54:28 AMCapitalism is basically no or less government involvement, letting the market sort itself out.
Capitalism has never been about no or less government and definitely isn't now. Capitalism absolutely depends upon the state to promote its interests.
Capitalism works when the government doesn't get involved! When the government does get involved, you get socialism/communism.
Capitalism is not a state of nature, it's a modern creation of the centralized state. This capitalism vs. socialism/communism (as if those were the same thing) dichotomy is staggeringly ignorant of history. In England, prior to the 19th Century, extensive protection of local, regional, and national industries was absolutely taken for granted. Urban moneyed interests employed a centralized bureaucracy to overpower the traditional social organization (which you would call "socialist/communist") and establish modern labor, property, and capital markets according to a newly contrived ideology.
Quote from: The Great TransformationThe road to the free market was opened and kept open by an enormous increase in continuous, centrally organized and controlled interventionism. To make Adam Smith's "simple and natural liberty" compatible with the needs of a human society was a most complicated affair. Witness the complexity of the provisions in the innumerable enclosure laws [S-what AC is referring to as commoners being thrown off the land]; the amount of bureaucratic control involved in the administration of the New Poor Laws [...]. Just as, contrary to expectations, the invention of labor-saving machinery had not diminished but actually increased the uses of human labor, the introduction of free markets, far from doing away with the need for control, regulation, and intervention, enormously increased their range. Administrators had to be constantly on the watch to ensure the free working of the system. This paradox was topped by another. While laissez-fair economy was the product of deliberate State action, subsequent restrictions on laissez-faire started in a spontaneous way. Laissez-faire was planned; planning was not.
Quote from: Heinrich on October 24, 2023, 04:52:31 PMQ: What country had the highest standard of living in the late 1930's?
Capitalism is to economics what Darwinism is to biology. Economics is a moral science, not a material one. For those Catholics here who advocate for the mighty laissez faire system, think again. You are part of the problem.
A: NAZI Germany. A labor based, no usury, protectionist system. High wages, high value labor, goods. Too bad those odious elites there Effed it up with military spending and, well, war.
Don't forget the HOLOCAUST!!!
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 24, 2023, 03:43:44 PMQuote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 03:39:29 PMWhy does the American workers 'right' to a job trump the non American shareholders right to make a profit?
https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html
or if that's too modern, then:
https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html
But Americans in their 401k pensions, and the Vatican bank, both buy the shares and reap the profits of those corporations who outsource those jobs.
Utter stupid hypocrisy all round.
Quote from: Heinrich on October 24, 2023, 04:52:31 PMQ: What country had the highest standard of living in the late 1930's?
Capitalism is to economics what Darwinism is to biology. Economics is a moral science, not a material one. For those Catholics here who advocate for the mighty laissez faire system, think again. You are part of the problem.
A: NAZI Germany. A labor based, no usury, protectionist system. High wages, high value labor, goods. Too bad those odious elites there Effed it up with military spending and, well, war.
For your information, Nazi Germany was a communist regime.
Quote from: MushroomRooster on October 24, 2023, 06:56:39 PMQuote from: Heinrich on October 24, 2023, 04:52:31 PMQ: What country had the highest standard of living in the late 1930's?
Capitalism is to economics what Darwinism is to biology. Economics is a moral science, not a material one. For those Catholics here who advocate for the mighty laissez faire system, think again. You are part of the problem.
A: NAZI Germany. A labor based, no usury, protectionist system. High wages, high value labor, goods. Too bad those odious elites there Effed it up with military spending and, well, war.
For your information, Nazi Germany was a communist regime.
It was also a regime whose racial idolatry was condemned by Pope Pius XI and in turn persecuted the Church.
You'll notice that a percentage of the Posters on this forum are not actually Catholic and are a bunch of retarded 4chan freaks and Stormfront faggots.
I didn't expect this thread to take the turn it did. Nevertheless, some of the points made on both sides troubled me very much.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 06:39:41 PM.
I would just say, in regards to unbridled capitalism, this is a very bad and unjust thing, there are such things as loyalty, family, nationalism etc. These concepts can also go too far, but to remove them entirely is a very bad thing.
For example, I would give my brother more leeway than I would a stranger, my brother could also abuse that but he is still my brother, if this is abused too much then it's time to search elsewhere, but otherwise, he is my kin and therefore special efforts must be made above that of a stranger.
In the same way, I would give fellow Australians more leeway than I would an immigrant, this too can be abused if the fellow Australians abuse it, but someone who was born and raised or has become a citizen of Australia should not be treated in a simple 1:1 economic value proposition as an immigrant.
Those who look at this as a pure 1:1 comparison and care nothing for loyalty, family, nationalism etc they will eventually reap the consequences to those who did not forsake these things, for example, if Australia ends up in hot water and they need to call up the military, why would I fight and die for a Country that views me like that in comparison to the rest of the world? What would I be fighting or dying for? The second I fall behind even slightly in the global rat race I'll be cut loose? With a simple 1:1 economic comparison? No way! Where is the loyalty? or Family? This is the massive toxicity facing us in all this.
It's like when a parent despises their own children and exalts a stranger, maybe their children are in a despicable state, nevertheless, they are still their children, a product of the parents, a simple 1:1 comparison to strangers is a very cold hearted and bitter thing to do. It's despising that which your own hands created, very toxic behaviour which will not end well for the parents or children.
This can go the other way too, in Australia we used to have Holden and Ford car manufacturers, and the competition between these two lead to great events such as the V8 Supercars, which I used to enjoy as a kid, at the time Australia had to try and protect these industries with import taxes and subsidies, which was both right and just, to keep our own car manufacturing, I don't know what exactly caused their collapse, as they both collapsed and now Australia has no car manufacturing with 100% imports.
Nevertheless, whether workers failed to be competitive, CEO's abused their positions, or the Government hung them out to dry, either way it's a very bad development and it's completely ruined V8 Supercars which I expect will be fazed out eventually, as it's running on the fumes of what it once was.
So it's ruined both the workers who lost their jobs or face accusations of laziness etc and it will ruin the Country as a whole making us weaker for it as we no longer produce any vehicles, among a host of other things, basically a vassal state of raw materials, which is how banana republics are made, especially when they can next screw over the people again by simply having another nation do all the work of extraction.
Furthermore, many other Countries try and protect their own industries with subsidies and import taxes which is right and just, it's only when this goes too far and they are no longer competitive that this is a problem, but a simple 1:1 comparison is never right.
Qantas is another example, our only Australian airline, now it is right and just to try and protect this with favourable treatment, but they have gone too far the other way, where they are simply abusing us with the very top of the company, with the CEO lecturing us about 'gay marriage' and then taking home record profits while putting their hand out to the government.
Then they'll call the people lazy etc or complain about minimum wage, when the failure of Qantas will have nothing to do with the Australian people and everything to do with the fat cat corrupt and abusive CEO's and political leaders in that situation.
Anyway, there is a lot of usury and abuse going both ways in this, and simple 1:1 economic comparison with no regard to loyalty, family, nationalism etc will absolutely come back to destroy those people who engage in such practices IMO.
I don't mean to judge your son, for example, the local workers may have been exceedingly bad or abusive, in which case immigrants can be considered, but it is a bad development nonetheless, and efforts should be made to avoid that if possible IMO, not a simple 1:1 comparison.
Also in terms of Nazi Germany, this is where they went way too far, where the claims of their own kin were not only elevated above that of the stranger, but the stranger then had no rights and was viewed as totally inferior and even to be eliminated with their foolish notions of racial supremacy/purity and then they committed acts of eugenics against their own kin who didn't meet their standard, so in a certain way, Nazi Germany did this 1:1 comparison on a nationalistic level where strangers didn't count at all and even their own kin who fell behind were eliminated.
"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."God Bless
Also, in regards to drugs, licentiousness etc, much of this can be put down to the loss of hope, which can easily be seen with accusations of laziness and entitlement, from big CEO's and companies abusing their positions, from corrupt politicians and being compared to global competition on pure 1:1 comparisons etc. It's all toxic. Most especially the attack on Christendom and the rise of Atheism and Nihilism which are very toxic.
For example, I used to be in a band, where anyone could join and we would teach them to play their respective instruments, there would always end up a few key players who were talented and they'd help the weaker players, the problem, is that once you did the work and helped create a couple talented players, the poachers from other bands would then come in to steal your talented players, then you'd be just in a constant state of weak players and trying to build up weak players and if you ever succeeded they would get poached from you.
How could one not despair and 'give up' in such a situation?
This is why concepts such as 'loyalty' and 'nationalism' are very important concepts, but also not to be taken too far either, as a very talented player in a small band should be able to go on to other bands if they so choose, but it must be in a way that doesn't destroy or abuse their original band... their origins.
So on one hand, there needs to be some protectionism in the economy, to build up your own citizens, if your own government and people don't make an effort then who will? but at the same time, one can't ignore or dismiss the very talented and helpful stranger either.
God Bless
What does God think of nationalism?
Well when the Jews were more into being Jews that being good, he smashed their temple and scattered them for 2000 years.
I would support a Catholic above a Kazakh. But I would support a hard working Kazakh above an apostate, pot smoking, triple jabbed, typical Brit who thinks the world is overpopulated and happily attends sodomite weddings if they have an open bar.
That is most British people today. Utter muppets.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 10:50:47 PMWhat does God think of nationalism?
Well, He did live with them and then exclusively witness and teach them for 3 years, choosing all His disciples from among them despite their many faults and failures.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 10:50:47 PMWell when the Jews were more into being Jews that being good, he smashed their temple and scattered them for 2000 years.
After the Crucifixion, then He did, but nobody can say lack of effort. In fact, the Crucifixion itself is the level of effort He went to for the Jews who rejected Him and by extension all of us, for all the Gentiles and our sins... as many of the original tenants proved unworthy by rejecting Him and His sacrifice for our sins.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 10:50:47 PMI would support a Catholic above a Kazakh. But I would support a hard working Kazakh above an apostate, pot smoking, triple jabbed, typical Brit who thinks the world is overpopulated and happily attends sodomite weddings if they have an open bar.
Nobody likes to be generalized, on one hand it's Gen Y or Gen Z who are just lazy and entitled, pot smoking, jabbed, apostate etc then it's the CEO's of Qantas lecturing us about 'gay marriage' paying himself record profits and putting his hand out for more taxpayer money and then it's Bergoglio and other elderly hierarchs pushing heresy and apostasy etc. We can all point the finger and generalize, what's the plan? replace them all with immigrants and have all the natives homeless, drug addicted and perish?
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 10:50:47 PMThat is most British people today. Utter muppets.
Generalization again, and your one of them whether you like it or not. Sadly this process all began before I was even born, are you planning to flee? And if you flee, why would another Country want to take you in or trust you when the place you came from is in ruins? They don't want that toxicity. Sometimes people don't have a choice and are subject to things far beyond their control, which is why there needs to be a level of mercy and compassion for the stranger, nevertheless, those who sell out their own people for the stranger are to be despised such as the ones advocating open borders, sending taxpayer money overseas everywhere, starting wars while their own people are on the streets, struggling with inflation and are essentially being robbed blind and poisoned by the propaganda (atheism, nihilism, licentiousness) and jabs etc.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn for example always loved Russia despite what his natives did to it, to the Orthodox faith and to him and when the USSR collapsed he returned then publishing works such as 'Rebuilding Russia'.
"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."God Bless
I'm partly thinking, maybe the west needs to fall, as it's only then that the poachers and toxic people flee to other lands flowing with milk and honey, the purely economic migrants will flee as fast as they came, the true immigrants will stick it out with the rest of us and the native traitors and abusers will flee for other lands, then when the so called 'degenerates' are all that's left, it will be very tough (hope there is a lot of mitigation in this process), but only then can one rebuild with a solid foundation.
When becoming a leader of a nation is filled with luxury, honours and prestige, you always get the worst, the most corrupt, which is the west after winning the Cold War, it's only when it carries risk and difficulties that you get true leaders, because they are in it for the right reasons, the important thing will be to get the foundations and structure right to prevent the poachers from taking over and destroying it once built up again IMO.
The Black Death (plague) is what did this for Europe, the toxic ones fled and those who survived led to the Renaissance.
God Bless
Faggot loving Cardinal. Well loved by most British Catholics
https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/14001/priests-take-aim-at-outdated-cdf-on-lgbt-people
(https://fotos.web.sapo.io/i/%5Battach%20id=5286%5DSchneider10.jpg%5B/attach%5DB3d18cc97%20/21333414_cslKW.jpeg)
Proper Catholic Cardinal below well loved by most of Kazakhstan's Catholics.
I think God prefers Kazakhstan.
Quote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 12:48:15 AMI think God prefers Kazakhstan.
You think they were always like that? There was a time when they were a testing ground for Nuclear weapons, a time when the faith was severely persecuted.
Every civilization rises and falls, maybe the wealthy and well educated can simply abandon ship when theirs is sinking and another passes by (Some Russians did this when the USSR collapsed), but nobody respects that if special efforts were not made for their own kin first.
People like Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn are respected, despite all he went through, and even when the USSR collapsed, he could've stayed in the USA and lived fairly well off, but instead chose to go back to Russia and rebuild it and I believe the fruits of his work and that of others are beginning to bloom there.
God Bless
Of course not. Thus I respond to the observable reality. As does my son.
The harder working Kazakhs deserve the extra work more than others.
When. and if. British people ever get a moral backbone and worship God again I will support them.
Now I must go as I have a three hour sales planning meeting with a Turkish outsourcing company. Which is planning to chase 3000USD per day banking installation work from the scum who populate London by lowering the rates to 2000USD per day.
Quote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
Well I don't think they can be blamed. Why do choose a profession where you compete with literally anyone? Because to pick fruit can be done by anyone. Instead of studying at a vocational training or a university and getting a real profession. Also in a Globalized world in which hundreds of thousands of "new Europeans" join your country every year, and all of them can pick fruit so all of them are competition.
If you are a plumber, computer technician or engineer, not everyone can do your job, you have a filter, and you have the option of improvement and career progression. Why choose the worst option?
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 24, 2023, 08:20:20 PMThose who look at this as a pure 1:1 comparison and care nothing for loyalty, family, nationalism etc they will eventually reap the consequences to those who did not forsake these things, for example, if Australia ends up in hot water and they need to call up the military, why would I fight and die for a Country that views me like that in comparison to the rest of the world? What would I be fighting or dying for? The second I fall behind even slightly in the global rat race I'll be cut loose? With a simple 1:1 economic comparison? No way! Where is the loyalty? or Family? This is the massive toxicity facing us in all this.
Yeah. I would not be willing to defend Spain in the future, it makes no sense to me considering what "my" country has become. In a globalized liberal world where nationality is worthless, it makes no sense to be a patriot or be willing to risk your life for your country. You have a point.
Quote from: Greg on October 24, 2023, 06:39:41 PMBut Americans in their 401k pensions, and the Vatican bank, both buy the shares and reap the profits of those corporations who outsource those jobs.
Utter stupid hypocrisy all round.
First, it was the native workers' fault for wanting a wage higher than what fresh-off-the-boat, 20-men-bunking-together-in-a-studio-apartment immigrants will work for.
Then, it was the shareholders' fault, even though their capital is too small to make a difference, and they're probably invested through index funds rather than in individual equities anyway.
When will any of the blame go to the government that opened the borders?
Quote from: GMC on October 25, 2023, 04:29:07 AMYeah. I would not be willing to defend Spain in the future, it makes no sense to me considering what "my" country has become. In a globalized liberal world where nationality is worthless, it makes no sense to be a patriot or be willing to risk your life for your country. You have a point.
Exactly, they can't have it both ways, if nationalism and trying to protect and build up your own citizens over that of immigrants is so bad, if it's wrong to favour your own kin over strangers, then why would I fight for such a nation?
It's every man for himself and that is a recipe for disaster, as the loyal family unit on the micro level and on the macro level with a nation will always be much stronger.
Spainards should get favorable treatment over myself in Spain because in bad times I can just go home, spainards can't do that so why would we be treated as equals economically, politically etc in Spain?
If they were to exalt myself over their own citizens because perhaps I work harder or for less money, then when crisis hits, I'll go home and they'll be left with their own people whom they invested nothing in making such a crisis 10 times worse.
By the same token, we don't abandon the stranger either and we encourage tourism and good relations between nations, but citizens... Your own kin always come first, which the west have been screwing over and abandoning for years IMO.
There is also the problem of poaching skilled immigrants from other nations which harms those nations development, bad political or ideological situations in those Countries justifies it, but purely economic reasons don't IMO.
Like when Rome would use mercenaries or bribe foreign armies, they would come back to bite them. If you need foreign mercenaries, then your army has failed and it's for the taking, if you need to bribe them, then it's open for the taking and no need to ask.
God Bless
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 25, 2023, 05:20:44 AMFirst, it was the native workers' fault for wanting a wage higher than what fresh-off-the-boat, 20-men-bunking-together-in-a-studio-apartment immigrants will work for.
When will any of the blame go to the government that opened the borders?
Exactly! Free trade agreements, deregulation and removal of protections for local industries, printing money causing inflation and thus stealing from their own people etc.
They've been screwing us over for years, Trump was the first one to shine a spotlight on this and try to repair the damage.
So what if a phone or my computer will cost more, fine by me, I'd much rather spend more on clothes and electronics than have us become dependant on other Countries some of whom don't like us and then not produce anything and thus sold out from underneath us until we become a banana republic.
It's only the 'middle men' who become wealthy, and just like the East India Trading Company, they can then remove the middle men and come in and control it themselves from start to finish.
Every nation needs at least some level of nationalism/patriotism and self sufficiency otherwise what good is it?
God Bless
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 25, 2023, 05:20:44 AMWhen will any of the blame go to the government that opened the borders?
Too late.
British wankers and Eurotrash apostates should have voted those governments out in the 1990s.
But they didn't.People kept voting for Tony Blair and kept voting for the EU dictators and national governments that were in its pocket.
Those foreign arrivals are never likely to return. As bad as Britain gets, they will be better off here on welfare and working at a car wash for cash in hand than they will be in the failed states they come from. That is why they risk drowning to get here.
Quote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 06:33:54 AMThose foreign arrivals are never likely to return. As bad as Britain gets, they will be better off here on welfare and working at a car wash for cash in hand than they will be in the failed states they come from. That is why they risk drowning to get here.
The foreign arrivals come for the money and will leave as soon as it stops. And they don't waste their time working at car washes for cash.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 25, 2023, 05:20:44 AMFirst, it was the native workers' fault for wanting a wage higher than what fresh-off-the-boat, 20-men-bunking-together-in-a-studio-apartment immigrants will work for.
Then, it was the shareholders' fault, even though their capital is too small to make a difference, and they're probably invested through index funds rather than in individual equities anyway.
When will any of the blame go to the government that opened the borders?
The government will accuse anyone who objects of being racist.
Just like some people on this forum do.
(https://i.imgflip.com/83rwjm.jpg)
Back when I was a little nipper running around in Tennessee, when I needed a doctor, he came to my house. People under 50 can not even conceive of this, however watch enough old movies, and eventually you'll see one where the doctor makes a house call.
At a minimum you should have the curiosity, let alone critical thinking, to wonder what changed so that now the doctor drives a porsche and owns a vacation condo in Aspen, which indeed makes a house call economically impossible.
Quotesocialism/communism (as if those were the same thing)
With regards to the ownership of production, they are identical. And both are condemned by the Catholic Church.
Laissez Faire Capitalism is a failure. However most people condemning it can't give a cogent reason why it fails just as most people can't explain why usury is evil. This is a problem because it opens them up to espousing jewish bolshevik errors.
The US solved the problem with Laissez Faire Capitalism with two tools: anti-competitive practices laws, and a "good-enough" labor movement.
So the answer to Laissez Faire Capitalism is to ensure you have free market competition. The laws are called "anti-competitive practices" for a reason.
However labor got infiltrated by the Syndicate and later jewish bolsheviks, and are now mostly trash. Anti-competitive practices laws are not enforced, just look at Google and Microsoft. This is because we embraced corporatism, which is the economic system of fascism.
The US is a mixed economy of fascism and socialism. $4 Trillion is spent on the Federal level on socialism. The remainder is used by the military, legitimate government activities, and funding for organs of fascism. The remaining free market elements include farmers markets, garage sales, and hiring a worker to do home repairs for cash. These all violate fascist laws. Every once in awhile you read a story of a cop busting a kid's lemonade stand. He's just doing his job. It's very rare because Americans hate looking in the mirror and seeing the fascist/socialist staring back. So the politicians let it slide. One dude, a non-resident foreigner, (edit: confused with the online file sharing dude) tried to establish an online free market. The US kidnapped him and he is now doing 3 life sentences with no chance of parole.
If we Thanos snap away the socialism, the US would run a $2.5 Trillion SURPLUS. It could then eliminate payroll taxes (instant, non-inflationary raise of 14.5% to every worker), eliminate all corporate taxes on domestic companies, and still have a Trillion left over to pay off our debt, leading to a very strong dollar and falling prices at the grocery store and pump.
On nationalism, it is both a symptom and a cause. When a country gives up protections for the founding nation, then it is a sign that the country is in decline. The Roman Empire fell when it allowed the Goths to legally migrate into the empire. There was no "barbaric invasion". Nationalism is a cause of prosperity IF you have a healthy culture. If so, importing primitive savages into your homeland will destroy the country, because there is no such thing as magic dirt. Look at California. Before Reagan cucked on amnesty, Califronia was a prosperous, center-right State.
Talking about migrant workes is akin to closing the barn door after the horses are out. Yes, you can have a coherent guest worker program, and a limited immigration program based on IQ and skill set, a program based on benefitting the Nation for the long term. And yes, flooding your country with primitive savages has predictable results, however the root cause in the West is the suicide of abandoning the pillars of Western Culture.
Quote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 06:33:54 AMPeople kept voting for Tony Blair and kept voting for the EU dictators and national governments that were in its pocket.
Here in the US, our political candidates are selected for us by the same moneyed interests that want to open the borders.
When the people vote, they are choosing from a curated slate of neocons and globalists who differ only in appearances.
I'm as cynical as they come, but it's too cynical, even for me, to blame the voters in this system.
Quote from: james03 on October 25, 2023, 07:21:45 AMQuotesocialism/communism (as if those were the same thing)
With regards to the ownership of production, they are identical. And both are condemned by the Catholic Church.
The poster I'm replying to has gone to claim that the Nazis were communists. Lumping this much is dumb ("everything I don't like is communism") and will only get him laughed at most everywhere he brings it up. Do him a favor and don't encourage it.
Fascism: State control over the means of production.
Communism: State control AND ownership of the means of production.
They are both similar and of the left. But you are correct, there are some key differences, like allowing private people to get some profits from their property, and allowing private people to sell ownership, both missing from socialist economies.
Smart leftists go with fascism because it gives them the same control, but keeps around "capitalist" scapegoats to use after the leftists screw up the economy. Chavez made a strategic error when he abandoned fascism for socialism. However it allowed him to loot more money, and considering he skimmed $1 BILLION, he probably considered it a success.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 25, 2023, 08:49:47 AMQuote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 06:33:54 AMPeople kept voting for Tony Blair and kept voting for the EU dictators and national governments that were in its pocket.
Here in the US, our political candidates are selected for us by the same moneyed interests that want to open the borders.
When the people vote, they are choosing from a curated slate of neocons and globalists who differ only in appearances.
I'm as cynical as they come, but it's too cynical, even for me, to blame the voters in this system.
Please...nobody is shooting them dead if they jump the fence.
I was on anti-lockdown protests in London when there were 250 people there and the police whacked us with battons. My son and wife came when there were 2000. The third time 25,000 and the fourth over 100,000 people.
The vast majority of people won't get off their lazy asses and do a damned thing to provoke change. Let them burn.
Quote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 11:02:38 AMI was on anti-lockdown protests in London when there were 250 people there and the police whacked us with battons. My son and wife came when there were 2000. The third time 25,000 and the fourth over 100,000 people.
I'm the only person I know (offline) who ever got thrown out of a business for refusing to wear a mask. I hear you. But I think we've gotten off track.
I don't believe we have.
Modern westerners are 80% idiots.
And most of the remainder won't attend a protest.
I sympathize, though on the whole I still prefer my dumb countrymen to dumb foreigners. Further replacement is likely to hurt me, while gradual nationalist reform helping me is just that little bit more plausible. I wouldn't bother going too hard against seasonal farm labor, though.
Best thing that ever happened to me was needing to compete with Hindu students at the age of 17 instead of moronic Irish students at my Catholic school.
Woke me up.
I knew I either needed to bust my ass to pass my exams and work like a dog in a laboratory or become a really good salesman where with their bud bud bud accents I would have the natural advantage.
Change is good. It sweeps away all the crap and stagnation that has built up.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 25, 2023, 06:53:01 AMQuote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 06:33:54 AMThose foreign arrivals are never likely to return. As bad as Britain gets, they will be better off here on welfare and working at a car wash for cash in hand than they will be in the failed states they come from. That is why they risk drowning to get here.
The foreign arrivals come for the money and will leave as soon as it stops. And they don't waste their time working at car washes for cash.
You clearly never get your car hand washed. Not an Englishman among them.
Quote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 11:36:17 PMBest thing that ever happened to me was needing to compete with Hindu students at the age of 17 instead of moronic Irish students at my Catholic school.
Woke me up.
I knew I either needed to bust my ass to pass my exams and work like a dog in a laboratory or become a really good salesman where with their bud bud bud accents I would have the natural advantage.
Change is good. It sweeps away all the crap and stagnation that has built up.
Do you live in a Hindu area now?
Did you send your children to a Hindu school?
Quote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 11:36:17 PMBest thing that ever happened to me was needing to compete with Hindu students at the age of 17 instead of moronic Irish students at my Catholic school.
Woke me up.
I knew I either needed to bust my ass to pass my exams and work like a dog in a laboratory or become a really good salesman where with their bud bud bud accents I would have the natural advantage.
Change is good. It sweeps away all the crap and stagnation that has built up.
Placing me in a position where I might have to defend Irish people if I want to continue my argument is a brilliant move. Hats off to that.
I'm sure you wouldn't maintain that all change is uncritically good, or you'd have no reason to be a traditionalist. Western countries are well past the point where introduction of different blood/culture is providing any helpful aerating effect. It is mainly spreading disaffection, social dislocation and strife now, and propping up parasitical industries. It would be more beneficial to let the inverted population pyramids wreak their temporary havoc. Note that you would still have the pleasure of watching idiots suffer and learn. We will get there anyway when global population growth reverses (within my lifetime, if not yours), so the relevant question is whether the last remnants of English culture should be deliberately destroyed first.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 26, 2023, 04:00:23 AMQuote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 11:36:17 PMBest thing that ever happened to me was needing to compete with Hindu students at the age of 17 instead of moronic Irish students at my Catholic school.
Woke me up.
I knew I either needed to bust my ass to pass my exams and work like a dog in a laboratory or become a really good salesman where with their bud bud bud accents I would have the natural advantage.
Change is good. It sweeps away all the crap and stagnation that has built up.
Do you live in a Hindu area now?
Did you send your children to a Hindu school?
There are not many Hindu Schools. Hindus go to regular schools and they are generally speaking some of the smartest if not the hardest working students in the class.
Quote from: Severinus on October 26, 2023, 09:25:27 AMI'm sure you wouldn't maintain that all change is uncritically good, or you'd have no reason to be a traditionalist.
That is not change, it is a denial of the truth.
Hindus with functioning families replacing apostate British people is positive change. The Hindus are least obey most of the natural laws and hold their family units together.
British people are not in any way meaningfully Christian nor have they been for 2 generations. I feel no more pity for them that the Aztecs who were put to the sword by Spanish Conquistadors.
Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Hindus go through a lot of effort escaping a country run by Hindus. Now the UK is run by a Hindu, the City of London is run by a moslem head hunter, and Scotland is run by a moslem head hunter. Or choice B, let globohomo run things. The only sane option is not to play.
Saving the Former West is fruitless. The proper mindset is preserving and reestablishing the West. This took 500 years in Spain. I think this will be greatly accelerated looking at the coming war.
Quote from: Greg on October 26, 2023, 12:44:46 PMQuote from: awkward customer on October 26, 2023, 04:00:23 AMQuote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 11:36:17 PMBest thing that ever happened to me was needing to compete with Hindu students at the age of 17 instead of moronic Irish students at my Catholic school.
Woke me up.
I knew I either needed to bust my ass to pass my exams and work like a dog in a laboratory or become a really good salesman where with their bud bud bud accents I would have the natural advantage.
Change is good. It sweeps away all the crap and stagnation that has built up.
Do you live in a Hindu area now?
Did you send your children to a Hindu school?
There are not many Hindu Schools. Hindus go to regular schools and they are generally speaking some of the smartest if not the hardest working students in the class.
According to this, there a five state funded Hindu schools in Britain and two private Hindu schools.
https://www.hindumattersinbritain.co.uk/Page/faith-school
But what about where you live? The last time I visited your part of Kent, I wasn't aware of a significant Hindu presence. It wasn't diverse at all, as I remember. It seemed mainly white British.
Also you must have noticed the changes to the part of London you grew up in. Assuming you approve, why do you live where you live, among all those horrible British people?
5 is not many
Quote from: Greg on October 26, 2023, 02:12:36 PM5 is not many
But why do you live where you choose to live if you despise British people so much?
And does the majority white British population that you choose to live among in Kent know how much you despise them and want them replaced?
As for the school issue, you could have moved to the catchment area of one of them. But you didn't.
Quote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 11:36:17 PMBest thing that ever happened to me was needing to compete with Hindu students at the age of 17 instead of moronic Irish students at my Catholic school.
Woke me up.
An argument can be made both ways, should I compete with all Chinese students who face tremendous pressures to top exams? with many of them facing depression and others committing suicide? Is that the life we want? I remember too the life story of Ravi Zacharias pushed to such an extent in academia and not good enough at sports that he tried to take his own life.
Are these positive developments? Do these result in good outcomes? Was St Joan of Arc well educated and experienced in battle? Yet the well educated and experienced commanders lost battle after battle.
Penicillin which revolutionised medicine was discovered by accident. Ulysses S. Grant was by no means the Union Army's first choice either.
The Chinese competition may be smart, but if they have such a toxic and stressful culture that it leads to depression, anxiety, suicide and 1 child policies etc, is that something to emulate? Is that in fact smart or intelligent?
Some people have different talents, if they aren't purely academic are they to be cut loose? There are many examples of those who did not succeed in academia early in life and went on to achieve great things, there is also the corruption of academia itself where those highly skilled in it for example with the jabs, struggled to see the dangers and consequences of these jabs.
I could not compete at the academic level of someone like Vivek Ramaswamy for example, smart guy, but I could see through the propaganda in regards to the jabs where he could not until some time after he had already taken them, same with Elon Musk, another smart guy whom I could not compete with in his field of expertise... yet he also got the jabs and can't seem to see the dangers in regards to concepts like Neuralink and Human 2.0, others again in terms of IVF and abortion, or atheism and nihilism.
God Bless
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 05:34:31 AMAn argument can be made both ways, should I compete with all Chinese students who face tremendous pressures to top exams?
Yes
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 05:34:31 AMwith many of them facing depression and others committing suicide?
The majority of them are both high-achieving and not suicidal.
Makes you think we should probably investigate what separates the suicidal and the not-suicidal rather than just assuming that emphasis on academic achievement causes suicidality.
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 05:34:31 AMWas St Joan of Arc well educated and experienced in battle? Yet the well educated and experienced commanders lost battle after battle.
Penicillin which revolutionised medicine was discovered by accident. Ulysses S. Grant was by no means the Union Army's first choice either.
Are you advocating that people be ignorant?
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 05:34:31 AMSome people have different talents, if they aren't purely academic are they to be cut loose?
This is the "fixed mindset". Try something once or twice, and then throw one's hands up: "It just isn't for me." It doesn't demonstrate that someone isn't "purely academic". It demonstrates that the person lacks grit.
https://online.hbs.edu/blog/post/growth-mindset-vs-fixed-mindset
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 06:22:51 AMYes
I should clarify, yes and I will, I mean in regards of a simple 1:1 comparison based on academia, especially when there is a lot more to a well rounded person than this, one should never write people off based on this as if excellence in academia is the height of all there is to mankind.
Albert Einstein was a smart man.
"Einstein offered and was called on to give judgments and opinions on matters often unrelated to theoretical physics or mathematics. He strongly advocated the idea of a democratic global government that would check the power of nation-states in the framework of a world federation."Excelled in many fields, yet so blind on such a subject! The man who fled Nazi Germany cannot think a step ahead and envisage a Nazi Party taking power of such a 'world federation' leaving him then nowhere to flee to?
Not everyone can be rocket scientists, a society of such could not function either, through many parts make one body. Metrics such as academic ability while important, also leave out a whole lot and why they should never be erected to some ultimate value of which everything is measured.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 06:22:51 AMThe majority of them are both high-achieving and not suicidal.
Difficult to verify the exact extent, nevertheless, I've heard of several instances in Asian and Indian cultures, where academia is erected to such a level and there is such pressure, add to that the lack of faith, perhaps paganism or atheism and nihilism, produce terrible outcomes.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 06:22:51 AMMakes you think we should probably investigate what separates the suicidal and the not-suicidal rather than just assuming that emphasis on academic achievement causes suicidality.
Sure, something that no doubt is a positive in these cultures, is the emphasis on the traditional family, albeit with serious flaws like 1 child policy or contraception.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 06:22:51 AMAre you advocating that people be ignorant?
No, just that not everyone will excel academically, but their value to society can still be extremely important even though they are looked down upon by some.
1 Corinthians 1:25
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 06:22:51 AMThis is the "fixed mindset". Try something once or twice, and then throw one's hands up: "It just isn't for me." It doesn't demonstrate that someone isn't "purely academic". It demonstrates that the person lacks grit.
Maybe, and there is a balance to be had between inability to achieve academic excellence and just not putting in any effort, but then being headstrong too can have bad outcomes.
1 Corinthians 1:27
27 But the foolish things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the wise; and the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the strong.God Bless
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 07:23:55 AMthere is a lot more to a well rounded person than this, one should never write people off based on this as if excellence in academia is the height of all there is to mankind
The difference between a rational soul and a sensitive soul is
rationality. In other words, the intellect sets us apart from the animals. Academic achievement is the primary measurable outcome of the application of the intellect. It demonstrates three of the four cardinal virtues. Not achieving, when one is able, demonstrates any number of vices. And there are truly few who are not able.
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 07:23:55 AMnot everyone will excel academically
Why does this reality make you think that setting high expectations is somehow wrong?
And why is academic achievement singled out?
Not everyone will become a capital-S saint, but it doesn't mean we demean them and tell our children that sin isn't a big deal.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 26, 2023, 04:00:23 AMQuote from: Greg on October 25, 2023, 11:36:17 PMBest thing that ever happened to me was needing to compete with Hindu students at the age of 17 instead of moronic Irish students at my Catholic school.
Woke me up.
I knew I either needed to bust my ass to pass my exams and work like a dog in a laboratory or become a really good salesman where with their bud bud bud accents I would have the natural advantage.
Change is good. It sweeps away all the crap and stagnation that has built up.
Do you live in a Hindu area now?
Did you send your children to a Hindu school?
It's interesting that the Hindu's in India have the opposite view, at least according to EMJ.
At the beginning of 2015, I spent six weeks traveling through India.
The Catholics are a tiny minority in a sea of over one billion people,
most of whom are Hindu. But they have a significant cultural asset.
They have established a network of schools which are the best in India.
Because they are the best, 80 percent of the students attending those schools
are Hindus. I met one of those students at a Catholic school I visited in Delhi.
After I gave a short talk to an English class of 16-year-olds, a Hindu teenager
by the name of Samil stood up and asked if I could come up with a scientific
proof for the existence of God.-- E. Michael Jones, Barren Metal.
postscript:
Q: How do you know if an indian student has an attitude problem?
A: Because he Hindu nothing, Miss!
I'll get me coat ...
Indian Catholics though.
Like James I am convinced of Glubb's Age of Empires idea. That there is a civilisational cycle.
Didn't know about Glubbs, though Google is my friend. Yeah, we're in the Age of Decadence.
I like the Hard men create good times, good times create soft men, soft men create bad times, bad times create hard men cycle, which was probably someone ripping off Glubbs.
So we're in the Age of Decadence, good times/soft men, and rushing to decline/bad times. Do we want to "save" the Age of Decadence? There's nothing left to save, which is why I use the term Former West.
The rational thing to do is preserve what you can in solid communities based on the three pillars of the Westernese, and afterwards start rebuilding.
Essentially stay out of the way of the Former West. Is the Former West raising an army with our sons (and may God forbid, daughters) to go and die for Israel? Hide them out. You aren't going to stop the Former West from suicide. Watch the show.
History is full of civilisations that have risen and fallen and the pattern they follow is more or less the same. When they start off, they are full of confidence and bravado expressed in military might and virtue. And when these traits are employed in wars abroad and the money rolls in, they become lazy and decadent.
They become arrogant, they over extend themselves and believe they are invincible. The bureaucracy needed to manage them grows and grows and taxes have to cover that cost. An abundance of foreign slaves means that the plebians, the masses, can't get work and start to be a threat to stability. So the Romans, for example, institute the 'dole', a bread allowance for plebians to keep them pacified while they were entertained at the circus. It becomes more and more difficult to guard the borders of empire and incursions from increasingly hostile tribes who are beginning to unify, start to increase.
There was no feminism in Rome to help bring down the empire. Its fall was inevitable anyway, because that's how civilisations rise and fall. The former West is simply following the same pattern that all civilisations do.
Nealy forgot, the Romans also had problems with inflation and had to devalue their currency - by decreasing the amount of gold in the coins, which caused people to lose confidence in it. Maybe James knows something about the problem of inflation in the ancient world.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AMIn other words, the intellect sets us apart from the animals.
And the virtues, most importantly the virtues, in fact, Darwinism uses this intellect to try and unite us to the animals, and some animals are smarter than others, so it can't be simply intellect, which just like our looks and our youth, are set to expire.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AMAcademic achievement is the primary measurable outcome of the application of the intellect.
I disagree, there are so many variables here too and everyone excels in different areas, not all are measurable on a piece of paper in a closed minded environment, I can remember stats for an exam and forget them later, or like those in university today who might be able to list all the new so called 'genders' and their various meanings and not see the obvious that it's total bullshit.
Reminds me of that clip going around one time, where they said in regards to transgenderism "are you a biologist" and they replied, "I don't need to be a veterinarian to know what a dog is."
I struggled with Accounting (Not the double entry accounting or accounting equation etc I enjoyed that part, which are all entirely logical, but in practice rarely used) but rather the whimsical laws and rules around taxation, depreciation, valuation etc, I could never fully learn it as it would change based on whimsical rules, assumptions and power politics.
Same thing with Law, the basic concepts are fine, but simply having to memorize nonsensical and whimsical laws and rules based on power politics would drive me mad if I did this. Yea a lawyer can cite precedents and make compelling arguments based on legal jargon, but it's all bullshit if what they seek is unjust and it's bullshit even when it's based on justice when they can easily be hamstrung (much like what they're doing to Trump) if your opponent is clever.
Almost like the Judge can't see right from wrong unless it's wrapped in a neat box with a pretty bow on top of all the legal jargon and case precedents... Reminds me of the show 'Law Abiding Citizen' where he is in the court room and makes his own defence.
Like when you cite the 'Nuremburg Code' over the jab mandates, you could do that all you like until your blue in the face and it doesn't mean anything to these people. The heart will trump the intellect.
It reminds me of when I was back at CAF (Catholic Answers Forum) and they had rules about criticizing the hierarchy, and even without that, there are experts in Canon Law, Theologians etc and yet they can't seem to see that Bergoglio and friends usurped the office from Pope Benedict XVI along with Boniface VIII from Celestine V.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AMIt demonstrates three of the four cardinal virtues.
No it doesn't, more like one of the cardinal virtues, but not three, for example Temperance, there are many motivations to succeed academically which would violate this virtue. Fortitude is another one, fear would drive me to succeed academically in the right circumstances, for example perhaps if I lived in China under the right circumstances, nevertheless, it doesn't mean I would have the courage to stand up for my faith or for the truth. Justice is another one, there are those who may succeed academically for very unjust ends. Prudence is one which you could use, but then, if I end up in debt studying gender theory or for a career and life that I hate, is that really prudence?
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AMNot achieving, when one is able, demonstrates any number of vices. And there are truly few who are not able.
Not necessarily, vice is the problem whether it inhibits academic excellence or not, those who succeed academically can very easily be held down by vice just as much as anyone else.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AMWhy does this reality make you think that setting high expectations is somehow wrong?
Not wrong, just that intelligence like most others things are relative, like the same notion that everyone can be rich and wealthy and those who aren't are just lazy or useless, not everyone can be rocket scientists and if they could such a society could not function if they all did that, by the same token, rocket scientists are also necessary, but so are your other less educated professions, someone has to do these other professions for society to function at all. We all have different talents and circumstances.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AMNot everyone will become a capital-S saint, but it doesn't mean we demean them and tell our children that sin isn't a big deal.
Yes, but if achieving academic excellence is placed on such a pedestal, how much more so should eliminating vice and striving for sainthood be? Which is far more important than academic excellence, seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you?
God Bless
WWII is another classic example, Nazi Germany was far superior intellectually than the USSR or USA, nobody could have imagined that these two would emerge as the two superpowers, never for a second guess such a thing. Nazi Germany had the best aircraft, tanks and equipment etc. Yet they went terribly wrong and they lost it all.
The Battle of Midway is another one, the Japanese Empire should have won, they had the better aircraft and equipment, the aircraft of the USA were very subpar and it showed during the battle, but history would tell a different story.
The USSR got it's ass handed to it at the beginning, and even then, they didn't have the best equipment, but by sheer weight of numbers and determination they succeeded and in the process actually ended up putting a stop to the most extreme persecutions of the Orthodox Church with Stalin himself recalling the Tsar Alexander I despite such history being anathema and purged previously.
In saying that, the intellect is important, for the USA, UK and USSR to win at all, they needed to manufacture such aircraft, tanks, artillery etc even if substandard to what Nazi Germany or the Japanese Empire had at it's disposal, so the intellect is important, but it's certainly not the most important.
God Bless
Quote from: Greg on October 22, 2023, 01:04:28 PMLast 3 weeks he has been grape picking in Kent for a local winemaker called Chapel Down.
Sounds like "Darling Buds of May."
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AMQuote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 07:23:55 AMthere is a lot more to a well rounded person than this, one should never write people off based on this as if excellence in academia is the height of all there is to mankind
The difference between a rational soul and a sensitive soul is rationality. In other words, the intellect sets us apart from the animals. Academic achievement is the primary measurable outcome of the application of the intellect.
Meaning that those without academic achievement are little different, at least measurably, from animals. This is so facially nonsensical that I'm having to twist "academic achievement" to mean something more like "can learn language and tool use." No-one could possibly be arguing that spending 30 years achieving good grades in school is what separates men from animals.
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 07:46:37 PMQuote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AMAcademic achievement is the primary measurable outcome of the application of the intellect.
I disagree, there are so many variables here too and everyone excels in different areas, not all are measurable
Please reread my comment.
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 27, 2023, 07:46:37 PMeveryone can be rocket scientists
Can you distill your comment to a collection of propositions?
Quote from: Severinus on October 28, 2023, 08:58:32 AMMeaning that those without academic achievement are little different, at least measurably, from animals.
No, I said that intellect is what separates us from the animals, and academic achievement is the primary measurable outcome of the application of the intellect. There are other outcomes that are measurable. There are also other outcomes that are not measurable.
It's not a useful measurement. It can just as easily measure stupidity, or conventionality of mind, or privilege and institutional preference. You can futz around with it if you like, but I'll stick to observation.
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 28, 2023, 02:14:14 PMPlease reread my comment.
I did, and I think I get it, academic excellence is important, but when this is put in the first place, it's very bad.
Matthew 6:33
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.If they are just not trying, that is a problem, if they are weighed down by vice, that too is a problem, but if they put things in their proper place, have the faith and virtues, whether they excel academically or not is immaterial, it's a fruit on the vine, one of many, but not the vine itself IMO.
There are Saints who succeeded greatly in academia, but then there are also Saints who greatly struggled with it. Both were just as important for the Church and the world. At the end of the day this knowledge we have is not only relative to the world and people around us, but there is also bad and corrupt knowledge and an expiry date on it as our abilities grow and deteriorate.
St Paul was a well educated man for his time, and he did much for the spread of Christianity, but not until his conversion could he then see what less educated men could, such as St Stephen who was put to death by St Paul before his conversion, St Stephen was a Greek-speaking Hellenistic Jew, so essentially from a line of collaborator or heretical Jews during Hellenistic rule after Alexander the Great. Yet he could see what St Paul and others could not at the time.
Or what about the man blind from birth? What qualifications did he have to speak in such way to the authority and experts of the Law? Much like the, your just a crackpot conspiracy theorist pretending to know better than Big Pharma, Mainstream Media and the so called 'experts' how can you teach us anything?
John 9:30-34
30 The man answered, and said to them: Why, herein is a wonderful thing, that you know not from whence he is, and he hath opened my eyes. 31 Now we know that God doth not hear sinners: but if a man be a server of God, and doth his will, him he heareth. 32 From the beginning of the world it hath not been heard, that any man hath opened the eyes of one born blind. 33 Unless this man were of God, he could not do any thing. 34 They answered, and said to him: Thou wast wholly born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 28, 2023, 02:14:14 PMNo, I said that intellect is what separates us from the animals, and academic achievement is the primary measurable outcome of the application of the intellect. There are other outcomes that are measurable. There are also other outcomes that are not measurable.
Even in regards to that, it still can't be the only thing, for a brain damaged individual is still distinguished from the animals despite not having the intellect of others, which varies greatly not only in the animal kingdom but also among humans.
Take a very intellectually inferior person, but who has the virtues, in person one can't help but to respect such a person, but take a very intellectually superior person, without the virtues, in person one can't help but to find them repugnant, even if very helpful and valuable to you. A child is intellectually inferior to an adult, but their look and demeanour can break your heart.
Furthermore, if the west falls it will have nothing to do with academic abilities, but everything to do with the loss of Christ.
God Bless
1 hour long interview with Bishop Schneider.
https://youtu.be/h2Jh1WKVhSc?si=Cn9drAtb0B0Sblli
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 28, 2023, 07:47:11 PMI did, and I think I get it, academic excellence is important, but when this is put in the first place, it's very bad.
I still don't know where you're getting this idea.
Quote from: josh987654321 on October 28, 2023, 07:47:11 PMEven in regards to that, it still can't be the only thing, for a brain damaged individual is still distinguished from the animals despite not having the intellect of others, which varies greatly not only in the animal kingdom but also among humans.
The existence of SSA individuals doesn't prevent us from making normative statements about sexuality.
Quote from: Greg on October 29, 2023, 12:01:17 AM1 hour long interview with Bishop Schneider.
https://youtu.be/h2Jh1WKVhSc?si=Cn9drAtb0B0Sblli
I liked it, nevertheless, I think when one doesn't look into the case surrounding the election of Bergoglio and the "resignation" of Pope Benedict XVI then they are compromised. I could pray for Bergoglio too, but not as the Holy Father, Bergoglio would have to unburden his conscience surrounding the "resignation" of Pope Benedict XVI.
Nobody who knows about Pope Celestine V as Pope Benedict XVI did would think this was good for the Church. Furthermore, if appointed by God, not even a Pope has the authority above God to unappoint himself, hence this 'emeritus' and 'in a different way' nonsense was a fallacy, whether he did so intentionally to leave clues or he simply erred is up for debate IMO, nevertheless the conclusion is the same.
(https://i.ibb.co/6cKgjWj/twopopes2-custom-f07b0bb68156670d5952401384b99bdf6cc86a41-s900-c85.webp) (https://ibb.co/WNrgm2m)
While inspecting the earthquake damage during a 28 April 2009 visit to the Aquila, Pope Benedict XVI visited Celestine's remains in the badly damaged Santa Maria di Collemaggio and left the woolen pallium he wore during his papal inauguration in April 2005 on his glass casket as a gift. Benedict XVI would go on to become the first pope since Celestine to voluntarily resign of his own initiative.My apologies for going off topic, but I had to say this after the video.
God Bless
I'll keep him in prayers.
Quote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:47:47 PMQuote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
They refuse to work for the low wages that the migrants are willing to accept?
I can't speak for the situation in the UK but you are flat-out wrong about Americans being unwilling to do the work. People hire illegals so they can underpay them and abuse them in any way they want. If you or I get seriously injured on the job our employers required to pay for a substantial amount of the hospital bills. If an illegal immigrant is injured the employer doesn't have to do anything for them. I've tried to work at places that hire illegals and they simply don't hire us, and it isn't because we can't do the same things.
QuoteIf appointed by God, not even the Pope has the authority above God to unappoint himself,
God doesn't appoint the Popes; He leaves their designation to the College of Cardinals, or to whatever method the Church would enact.
Secondly, the Pope elect can accept or turn down the election; which would not be true if God appointed him.
Third: Its part of Church law that a Pope can resign.
Fourth: Benedict's resignation valid or not, doesn't change any of the antecedent statements.
We live in interesting times :cheeseheadbeer:
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 08, 2023, 05:09:00 PMGod doesn't appoint the Popes; He leaves their designation to the College of Cardinals, or to whatever method the Church would enact.
Yes, but once chosen and accepted, then it is given to him not only by the collage of cardinals, but also by God, thus designated by God through the college of cardinals hence the authority that office holds, without God then it's simply a group of fallible men making fallible decisions like any other democracy.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 08, 2023, 05:09:00 PMSecondly, the Pope elect can accept or turn down the election;
Yes, but once accepted, they hold that office for life and the gates of hell not prevailing holds true, furthermore we cannot have two living Popes.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 08, 2023, 05:09:00 PMThird: Its part of Church law that a Pope can resign.
No, no, no... Pope Celestine V was pressured to 'resign' but it was only formally introduced afterwards by the usurper Boniface VIII to try and justify his legitimacy, which cannot be justified!
The Church needs to correct this lie, thus it is very fitting that Pope Benedict XVI looked to Pope Celestine V, which tells me exactly what went on and why I am confident that Bergoglio is a usurper.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 08, 2023, 05:09:00 PMFourth: Benedict's resignation valid or not, doesn't change any of the antecedent statements.
It absolutely does IMO.
Our Lord declared St Peter the 'rock' and thus the first Pope in a line of succession for the New Covenant just as Aaron was made High Priest in a line of succession in the Old Covenant, could St Peter at any time have chosen to 'resign' and then appoint someone else? Don't you think they would be overstepping their authority if they overruled our Lord like that? Not even St Peter himself could do such a thing! Why is it okay today?
Remember in the Old Covenant how Caiaphas usurped Annas? Then subsequently had Christ crucified?
God Bless
The Church's Canon law (1917 & 1983) state clearly that the Roman Pontiff can freely resign his office:
QuoteCanon 221 (1983 CIC 332)
If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns, for the validity of this resignation, acceptance by a
Cardinal or another is not necessary.
"We cannot have two living Popes": is true, but a Pope who resigns his office, is no longer Pope.
QuoteNo, no, no... Pope Celestine V was pressured to 'resign' but it was only formally introduced afterwards by the usurper Boniface VIII to try and justify his legitimacy, which cannot be justified!
No, I have read Church history, and Pope Celestine resigned of his own free will.
Boniface VIII was a true Pope, and has always been recognized as such by the Church.
QuoteThe Church needs to correct this lie, thus it is very fitting that Pope Benedict XVI looked to Pope Celestine V, which tells me exactly what went on and why I am confident that Bergoglio is a usurper.
Its your theory that is wrong; and in order to square your theory with history, you have to re-write history.
Benedict XVI could legally resign.
Whether he freely resigned is another question; but he did state that he did resign freely.
Quote from: josh987654321 on December 09, 2023, 07:04:04 AMYes, but once chosen and accepted, then it is given to him not only by the collage of cardinals, but also by God, thus designated by God through the college of cardinals hence the authority that office holds, without God then it's simply a group of fallible men making fallible decisions like any other democracy.
I do not believe in a God who designated pornocracy popes.
I believe in a God who permitted them.
Quote from: beev_bove_biv on December 07, 2023, 03:15:42 PMQuote from: awkward customer on October 23, 2023, 05:47:47 PMQuote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2023, 05:12:48 PMSame reason farmers hire Hispanics in the US: most whites simply refuse to do the work
They refuse to work for the low wages that the migrants are willing to accept?
I can't speak for the situation in the UK but you are flat-out wrong about Americans being unwilling to do the work. People hire illegals so they can underpay them and abuse them in any way they want. If you or I get seriously injured on the job our employers required to pay for a substantial amount of the hospital bills. If an illegal immigrant is injured the employer doesn't have to do anything for them. I've tried to work at places that hire illegals and they simply don't hire us, and it isn't because we can't do the same things.
You've taken my quote out of context. My question was a challenge ...
Throughout the thread I've been arguing the same point as you, which led to me being accused of racism. One poster even announced that Hindus should replace useless British people who he despises, which is quite something given that he lives in a predominately white British part of the country.
I agree with you.
Should? They will.
It's a mathematical certainty.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 09, 2023, 09:16:45 AMThe Church's Canon law (1917 & 1983) state clearly that the Roman Pontiff can freely resign his office:
QuoteCanon 221 (1983 CIC 332)
If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns, for the validity of this resignation, acceptance by a
Cardinal or another is not necessary.
They got it wrong IMO, besides that, there is also a strong case that can be made about it's validity, but I don't even go there because I think this whole premise is completely wrong, it's simply a revolving door and there is no way of knowing whether someone was 'pressured' or not until after the fact and then what? Of course, I find it absolutely unbelievable that anyone could say Pope Celestine V resigned of his own accord... so free he was imprisoned just to be sure lol, I mean seriously, how can anyone buy that?
The fact that Pope Benedict XVI singled out Pope Celestine V's "resignation" really confirms my deep suspicions.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 09, 2023, 09:16:45 AM"We cannot have two living Popes": is true, but a Pope who resigns his office, is no longer Pope.
Says who? A Bishop who retires is still a Bishop, a Priest who retires is still a Priest. Furthermore, this is when just prior we had Pope John Paul II, with FAR more debilitating functions go through to the end, if anyone had cause to retire for health reasons it was him!
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 09, 2023, 09:16:45 AMNo, I have read Church history, and Pope Celestine resigned of his own free will.
So free he ended up imprisoned... fair and square baby, fair and square lol. Nothing says free choice like imprisonment does.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 09, 2023, 09:16:45 AMBoniface VIII was a true Pope, and has always been recognized as such by the Church.
This needs to change IMO.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 09, 2023, 09:16:45 AMIts your theory that is wrong; and in order to square your theory with history, you have to re-write history.
I haven't re-written anything, I may be just a layman, but even if we granted 'resignation' being a thing, even though applying this same logic to St Peter would be completely out of the question, nevertheless, even I know with 100% certainty that imprisonment proves that it was not free, like how they say we were free to refuse the vaccine, when they mandated and coerced the people in so many ways, in fact, big pharma can use this same logic, but we all know it's a lie. By hook or by crook.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 09, 2023, 09:16:45 AMBenedict XVI could legally resign.
I disagree.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 09, 2023, 09:16:45 AMWhether he freely resigned is another question; but he did state that he did resign freely.
There is a lot of evidence on this front too, just like the jabs, there are many red flags, which is not a throwing mud and seeing what sticks, rather, it's the fact that there are so many major problems with this that there is just no way it was valid IMO, I'm 99.9% sure, the 0.1% is simply because I can't prove it... yet.
Remember Wikileaks too? Catholic Spring? I already know Obama's administration was heavily involved.
Our Lady of Victory, Ark of the New Covenant, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for us.God Bless :)
Quote from: josh987654321 on December 12, 2023, 09:34:25 PMQuote from: Michael Wilson on December 09, 2023, 09:16:45 AM"We cannot have two living Popes": is true, but a Pope who resigns his office, is no longer Pope.
Says who? A Bishop who retires is still a Bishop, a Priest who retires is still a Priest. Furthermore, this is when just prior we had Pope John Paul II, with FAR more debilitating functions go through to the end, if anyone had cause to retire for health reasons it was him!
Says the Church.
Deacon, priest, and bishop are the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders.
Pope is not a degree of this sacrament or a sacrament at all. It is an office held by a bishop.
While the sacraments of baptism and holy orders both impart an indelible character on the soul that can never be removed (even if the person ends up damned), the same is not true of the papacy.
A pope who retires is no longer the pope. He is a bishop who formerly held the office.
The fact that Benedict continued to wear white and give his Apostolic Blessing after renouncing the papacy is a confusing novelty, but it does reflect the apparent belief described in his resignation text, that a Pope could renounce the ministerium but not the munus. That is also a novelty. There cannot be two popes or any division within the papacy itself.
QuoteThey got it wrong IMO, besides that, there is also a strong case that can be made about it's validity, but I don't even go there because I think this whole premise is completely wrong, it's simply a revolving door and there is no way of knowing whether someone was 'pressured' or not until after the fact and then what? Of course, I find it absolutely unbelievable that anyone could say Pope Celestine V resigned of his own accord... so free he was imprisoned just to be sure lol, I mean seriously, how can anyone buy that?
The Church teaches that a Pope may resign; you think the opposite. The Church is right, you are wrong.
Pope Celestine never wanted to be Pope; after he was elected, he delegated all of his responsibilites as Pope to the people around him who were counseling him to do so; when it was discovered that these people were using their position to legally sack the Papal treasury, he resigned. That you find this "unbelievable", has nothing to do with history, but with your own pet theory.
QuoteThe fact that Pope Benedict XVI singled out Pope Celestine V's "resignation" really confirms my deep suspicions.[/QUOTE}
Yes, Pope Benedict pointed to Pope Celestine as a historical example of a Pope resigning; it only confirms that you are wrong.
QuoteSays who? A Bishop who retires is still a Bishop, a Priest who retires is still a Priest. Furthermore, this is when just prior we had Pope John Paul II, with FAR more debilitating functions go through to the end, if anyone had cause to retire for health reasons it was him!
Once again, it is the Church that states that a Pope can resign his office; as C.J. Explained above.
The Church doesn't require any conditions for this resignation, such as ill health; the Pope can resign any time he wants to.
QuoteI haven't re-written anything,
Yes, you keep insisting that Pope Celestine's resignation was invalid, contrary to what the Church has always held.
QuoteI may be just a layman, but even if we granted 'resignation' being a thing,
Yes, it is a Church "thing", which you refuse to accept.
Quoteeven though applying this same logic to St Peter would be completely out of the question
That St. Peter didn't resign or that the super majority of the Popes didn't resign, doesn't mean it can't be done. There have been other Popes that have resigned besides Pope Celestine.
Quotenevertheless, even I know with 100% certainty that imprisonment proves that it was not free,
You don't know 100% about this; you refuse the truth. The post-imprisonment of Celestine has nothing to do with his resignation or its validity.
Quotelike how they say we were free to refuse the vaccine, when they mandated and coerced the people in so many ways, in fact, big pharma can use this same logic, but we all know it's a lie. By hook or by crook.
The Church has accepted the resignation of Popes historically.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 13, 2023, 05:57:21 PMThe Church teaches that a Pope may resign; you think the opposite. The Church is right, you are wrong.
Even though the same logic could never be applied to St Peter the first Pope? Even though this would rule out figures like Moses and Jonah who likewise did not want their roles?
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 13, 2023, 05:57:21 PMPope Celestine never wanted to be Pope; after he was elected, he delegated all of his responsibilites as Pope to the people around him who were counseling him to do so; when it was discovered that these people were using their position to legally sack the Papal treasury, he resigned.
You don't imprison someone whose name is destroyed or who has no validity. The only reason for that is precisely because they were afraid of his legitimacy. There is no other reason for it.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 13, 2023, 05:57:21 PMThat you find this "unbelievable", has nothing to do with history, but with your own pet theory.
I very much disagree.
God Bless
....... All the other English have fallen by the wayside. Mind you I don't blame them at £10 per hour.
[/quote]
This is bugging me. I didn't properly take this in before.
Your son persuaded the farmer to sack the English workers and give their work to Kazakhs instead. And as a result, the English workers lost work. The Kazakhs now love him and he's off to Kazakhstan to teach English and try his luck
But your son played a role in depriving workers of work. Is this ethical behavior?
[/quote]
I'd take this story with a grain of salt. The farmer probably noticed that the English workers were not up to par and he was going to get rid of them anyway. The kid was being a bit obnoxious and should have minded his own business but he didn't really get the English workers fired. They were already on the bubble. Greg is just bragging.
Quote from: dymphnaw on January 22, 2024, 10:00:48 AMI'd take this story with a grain of salt. The farmer probably noticed that the English workers were not up to par and he was going to get rid of them anyway. The kid was being a bit obnoxious and should have minded his own business but he didn't really get the English workers fired. They were already on the bubble. Greg is just bragging.
Maybe. It turned out, though, that the useless workers were migrant workers, not English.
No, he wasn't being obnoxious. He was working his ass off. The Kazaks were working their ass off and the other workers were being lazy as some types of casual labour will be.
Pretty easy to see productivity in grape picking as he was carrying the grapes and counting the full buckets which weigh 20kg each. He knew which group was working harder.
He told the foreman, this group is far more productive that this group. Like the parable of the workers in the Vineyard. The representative for the contractor laid off the lazy group.
Hard working Canadian moves to Russia. Gets a very warm welcome from many Russians.
https://youtu.be/AfEtF7O7Th0?si=k2Ey2WEwJdashahC
Quote from: Greg on January 24, 2024, 02:09:01 AMNo, he wasn't being obnoxious. He was working his ass off. The Kazaks were working their ass off and the other workers were being lazy as some types of casual labour will be.
Pretty easy to see productivity in grape picking as he was carrying the grapes and counting the full buckets which weigh 20kg each. He knew which group was working harder.
He told the foreman, this group is far more productive that this group. Like the parable of the workers in the Vineyard. The representative for the contractor laid off the lazy group.
Open to correction but didn't the contractor take on men to work the vineyard at different times of the day after he saw them lazing around....the earliest workers got paid the same as those who joined later in the day right up the last hour, they complained and the contractor said it was his business how he paid workers and when they took on the job they agreed a price and he paid them accordingly....seems to me the contractor was trying to to keep lazy men busy and paid them a generous wage to boot....kind of the opposite of what your saying, no?
Typo. I meant unlike.
The picking contractors are paid a fix amount for a field to be picked. So they want the hardest working people and the lowest cost per picked ton.
Arrived today. The first day was like an episode of Bald and Bankrupt. Got invited to a corporate team pub quiz he stumbled into in a bar and ended up drinking with ex military Russians on the streets of Astana and taking about Putin. They were surprised he knew so much. Going to Schnider mass tomorrow plus Russian Orthodox Easter liturgy for the singing and just to see what happens at Easter. Says Kazakhstan is very similar to Russia.
Legend
I hope he can pick up a good set of kettlebells.
Actually he was complaining that gyms are expensive there compared to the Uk. Everything else is cheaper. He is a bit of a gym junky and goes 5 to 7 times a week. I said to try the universities.
Gave Bis. Schneider a bottle of Port from Fatima, with the Fatima brand. He was very pleased.
He's loving it so far. Enjoying every minute. Managed to rent a two room apartment in central Astana in a modern block (mostly empty) for £330 a month, about 420 USD dollars including bills.
Has a 9 foot by 15 foot kitchen and dining area and a 9 by 15 sitting room come bedroom with a sofa bed. Plus a 8x8 foot hallway and 8x8 bathroom with a full sized bath. Modern building not Soviet.
In New York that would be a decent sized apartment.
Quote from: Greg on May 12, 2024, 03:47:18 PMActually he was complaining that gyms are expensive there compared to the Uk. Everything else is cheaper. He is a bit of a gym junky and goes 5 to 7 times a week. I said to try the universities.
I've noticed that gyms in the 2nd and 3rd world are often much more expensive than 1st World. They know that gym rats will shell out the dough.
I suppose folks in said countries truly view it as a luxury and that only those with disposable time and income would even consider paying to expend energies.
It was like that in the Philippines. Gym memberships are more expensive than the United States, which I found insane considering at the time most people made the equivalent of $5 a day. A nice gym membership could run $70-$100 a month, a fortune over there. It would be like paying $1500 a month for a membership in the US.