My Travel Recommendations Traditional Catholics

[Michael Wilson]

You can see pickup trucks with Conferate license plates, but one young man takes the prize, he flies a full size Confederate flag from the back of his flat bed. Can't miss seeing that from quite a ways away.

[Miriam_M]

in my case, I truly want a solid TLM, but I also would love a strong trad community.
Maybe a parish with a vibrant homeschooling group.

A place where you can spend time in prayer on a First Friday, First Saturday, where you can find
a group of people you can go Christmas Caroling with,
a group of people that will visit a new mother & baby,
a group of people that will spend time making sandwiches & or soup for the poor in the area,
a group of people that will visit an elderly home,
a group of people that will help others in the parish that might be suffering or in need,
a group of people that will pray in front of an abortion clinic.

A group of people spending time going to Vespers, Benediction & daily Mass if possible.
A group of people that are truly practicing their faith. Living their faith!
And maybe where children might find their future spouse.

While such goals are ideal, in truth they are highly idealistic.  IOW, perhaps not only in the 21st century First World would they be idealistic, but even in former time periods, such as mid-20th century. I'm going to break them down, based on my experience in dozens of parishes of all kinds, and from what I've heard from others.  Obviously this is just my experience and knowledge-base, but it seems to be corroborated from consensus.


A place where you can spend time in prayer on a First Friday, First Saturday, [I think that's reasonable and likely at a trad parish, unless, of course, it's an only-Sunday situation for a "traveling" (non-stationed) apostolate, which remains a reality; if it's a 7-day parish, yes. And when you say "spend time in prayer," I'm not sure if you mean structured, oral prayer or merely the impulse to remain at prayer after FF and FS Masses, etc.  The latter is true at my parish, but there won't be a lot of people interested in aloud prayer as a group. When there are people lingering a long time after weekday Masses I sometimes linger with them, joining silently in their intentions; there is a kind of silent comraderie but less the spoken kind, but I think the silent kind is quite beautiful]

where you can find
a group of people you can go Christmas Caroling with, [less likely, due to scatterings of families during holidays, while they visit other relatives; there will be singles available who have less family to visit and may be available]

a group of people that will visit a new mother & baby, [yes, but in less organized fashion than you may envision it; I would say this is much more informal, with selected individuals (women) visiting and helping out during the week; weekends being a very different matter, with entire families visiting after Mass]

a group of people that will spend time making sandwiches & or soup for the poor in the area, [I have never seen this, except at N.O. parishes in an organization within the parish, which may in turn actually be linked to an outside organization doing that; charity on the trad parish level is mostly to those in need within that parish, and again is not "organized" but spontaneous, combined with word-of-mouth:  so and so knows X family where Dad has lost his job and there are 7 mouths to feed; people will contribute food; trad priest at parish will also get involved in rectory & hall pantries and cash --from individual donations, via him-- donations]

a group of people that will visit an elderly home, [it won't be "a group"; it will be one or two, and on occasion]

a group of people that will help others in the parish that might be suffering or in need,[individually and in variety/spontaneously, not "as a group"; I've been involved in some needs, not others; it's important to trust the Holy Spirit in this, CE; people are moved to particular needs, not massively or generically]

a group of people that will pray in front of an abortion clinic [trads here participate in various Life events, but not specifically to abortion clinics; I find that's true in "conservative Catholic" circles much more because their badge of "membership" is external political activism; and again, it's an individual/selective basis; rarely is there an announcement in the trad bulletin about any organized event; if the diocese or some Catholic group is holding a Life event, some will choose to go if they know about it; some will not choose to go; some people at my parish solicit my participation, now and then; when I'm free (rarely), I will go]

I will also say this about the yearning for a meaningful, traditionally Catholic community.  I think the desire and the search are natural and laudable:  it shows that the individual has internalized his commitment to Catholic spirituality as the defining center of his/her life, and it further shows an interest in making that commitment concrete and visible.  I just think that the economic, social, and political realities of modern life make this quite a challenge, as the OP and others have already experienced.  I am not speaking of here of excuses and convenience, because even when people are making, have made, great sacrifices to attain such a community existence, their own zeal has not accomplished what they seek.

I am speaking of our inability to control other factors:  other people's level of commitment, other people's financial/employment situations (some jobs are more transferable than others, for many reasons), varying costs-of-living in particular regions, etc.  Combine all of those variables with the fluctuating variable of traditional Catholic locations, and you can see how elusive the goal can become, even for the most knowledgeable, well-researched and determined person.  I have learned to become peaceful with the opportunities God has given me, which do exist without searching for the perfect environment.  What does my current Catholic environment include?

a core "group of people" committed to the Latin Mass and to traditional spirituality and doctrine.  Without that, it is not a trad community, very simply.  The spirituality includes a commitment to The Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy, but not "as a group," let alone as an organized group.  As individuals, we see needs; we fill them.  The spirituality also includes additional time spent in prayer and devotions, but not "as an organized group."  We respect each other's devotions without feeling a need for group-think, so to speak.  Sometimes we are inspired by others' devotions to include them in our private prayers and reading, but we do not feel compelled to conform.

1.  I do not rely on my trad community (and most trad communities are quite small) to be everything to me.  I can understand how a parent with currently dependent children has a different perspective on this:  clearly you want to raise your children in a healthfully and genuinely (recognizably) Catholic environment.  Again, this is a laudable goal but an elusive one.  It eluded me as a parent of young children.  For an example, liturgy -- when there were few/no traditional liturgies near us at the time.  I went to great lengths to cobble together a meaningful intersection between what they were learning at Catholic school and how we could experience that outside of school.  It meant traveling around to all kinds of different reverent Mass experiences, some trad, some not.

Ditto for other opportunities to live a Catholic life.  It just wasn't all "packaged" at a single parish -- any kind of parish. 

The trad families at my current parish, no matter how reverent they are, also do not rely on just the parish for the source of All Things Catholic.  It wouldn't be realistic.

2.  Just my personal opinion here, although Fr. Ripperger happens to share it.   
It is a Catholic value, one found in Tradition as well, to live within the world unless one has a vocation to the contemplative life.  Even traditionalist priests, whether housed at a permanent trad location or traveling to one, live within the world.  This is what Catholic witness is all about.  One has to compromise with what is not the intellectual ideal but the Real.  And to remain Catholic despite that.  Children, to some extent (I realize to a lesser extent) can also be shown and taught how to do this, charitably.  For example, some trad children in our parish are being taught to intersect with their less committed Catholic friends and their non-Catholic associates.

We will not ultimately protect children from the many evil and unfortunate influences in the modern secular (and even religious) world.  Not going to happen within the next decade, minimum. Nor can we obviously protect ourselves as thoroughly as we wish, because we are not contemplative religious. The point is to become so confirmed and confident in our spirituality that we can operate anywhere, comfortably.  I have reached that point in my life.

When I say "comfortably" I do not mean hypocrisy or immoral compromises.  I mean that I can exist within a non-Catholic or N.O. setting and not be influenced to capital sins of Anger and Pride.  (If I were parenting young children, that would certainly be a negative of living in a non-ideal environment -- the bad example I would give if I could not control my feelings within such settings.)  The goal should be to get myself strong enough spiritually so that my faith is not shaken, nor my behavior scandalizing, when I cannot avoid non-traditional settings.

If I were raising a young family at the moment and had options to move anywhere I liked?  I would move to a city/community where tradition in general is valued.  I will tell you that I sometimes have more in common with, make more headway with, families who respect tradition in general, including secular tradition, than I do with Catholics who are unaware of how accommodated they have become to modernism of various kinds -- how much they are attached to modernism (and secularism), how much it is the basis of their decision-making and lifestyle.

[dymphnaw]

I think a lot of people are longing for something that is never going to be again in the US. The big close knit parishes were ethnic and those neighborhoods were destroyed in the urban renewal/busing era.

[Tales]

I think a lot of people are longing for something that is never going to be again in the US. The big close knit parishes were ethnic and those neighborhoods were destroyed in the urban renewal/busing era.

Which was their entire purpose, of course.

[bigbadtrad]

1.  I do not rely on my trad community (and most trad communities are quite small) to be everything to me.  I can understand how a parent with currently dependent children has a different perspective on this:  clearly you want to raise your children in a healthfully and genuinely (recognizably) Catholic environment. 

I agree with a lot of what you've written so it seems unfair I'm only criticizing what I disagree with so let me apologize in advance. I don't think anyone thinks their parish will save them through osmosis and be their everything, but trying to find what is best and the most Catholic.

If every women in town/city wears immodest clothes the odds your child will, despite your best efforts, as social pressure will make your child cave in almost every case. Mom & Pop can't be contra mundum when it comes to social adaptation. The odds you can stand in a hurricane and not get hurt is not realistic. Society is built on influence both externally and internally from what we see and hear around us.

Examples:
-How many women feel the pressure to look a certain way now with makeup and attire from shows, magazines, and other people?
-How many, even Catholic children, keep their faith even after going to a Catholic school?
-How many families are broken, even trad families, in midst of temptations from the world?

2.  Just my personal opinion here, although Fr. Ripperger happens to share it.   
It is a Catholic value, one found in Tradition as well, to live within the world unless one has a vocation to the contemplative life.  Even traditionalist priests, whether housed at a permanent trad location or traveling to one, live within the world.  ...Children, to some extent (I realize to a lesser extent) can also be shown and taught how to do this, charitably.  For example, some trad children in our parish are being taught to intersect with their less committed Catholic friends and their non-Catholic associates.

Fr. Faber and St. Alphonsus disagree. Fr. Faber said in the midst of a hurricane we are not bound to stand in it's midst and stop it. He was writing to Catholics over 100 years ago about society. We're past the hurricane, we're now drowning in water.

The only problem with this is the belief we are still in a war and fighting it. The truth is the war for society has been fought and it's over. We lost. Every argument against what I've said has to go against the fact that is demonstrably true:
-Any man who opposes homos won't be employed for the most part, nor can they gain any high office
-All high political offices require believing in the secular Credo in application, no matter what their lips say about God
-Masculinity as a whole is despised and any exercise thereof is renounced
-When was the last time you heard a priest write or speak against the homosexual agenda publicly and if you have you recognize how rare it was. I've now heard a trad priest defend its agenda from a pulpit saying if your kid is a fag you should accept them.
-How many couples openly date without chaperones? How many trads believe in the importance of it until they are married?
-The belief in divorce and annulments is now even common among trads in the US. I actually told 2 guys who were interested in 2 trad girls from the US to ask if they believe in divorce before moving forward. 1 out of the 2 said they do and he cut it off. I've encountered many women in trad circles that believe in "if things aren't working out" than annulment/divorce follow
-TV which was once opposed for it's occasion of sin is now believed in by 95%+ of traditional Catholics, and if you think I'm wrong see if they have a smart phone and look at entertainment on it. Smartphones are far more insidious to the soul than any TV, yet even most priests have them. It's astonishing to me.

One nun at a certain trad school admitted to a friend that 70% of the kids from the school lose the faith. #1 reason is smartphones and pressure from society.

We will not ultimately protect children from the many evil and unfortunate influences in the modern secular (and even religious) world.

Have you seen families that have? I have. They realize the statement by St. Alphonsus is true which is if it is necessary to save your soul by fleeing to the desert we must and St. Philip Neri who said the victory go to the cowards against temptations.

If the argument then is we must stay in such an environment for factors outside of your control that's something which is personal, but to say that we cannot protect them for as long as possible by avoiding such environments is simply not true and I've seen many such families with a 100% retention of the faith.

St. Marys is literally the biggest data pool I've ever seen where you can say if you do X then Y happens with amazing consistency when it comes to parenting. Living there for 6+ years I saw those data pools and I can tell you the bunker type families who still have fun with their kids turn out best. Bunker alone makes them feel like mental cases, but bunker + parents who play with their kids is the winning formula. By bunker I mean parents who typically have some land, don't have internet in the house and if they do only in 1 room where everyone can see the screen and only used for school, only parents have cell phones, they go to Mass and pray together, and they typically have 2-4 close families in their life and they always have family time in the evenings.

Seriously, that formula is close to 100% retention of the faith. Whether you agree with living like that is not what I'm saying, I'm just saying it's the best for retention of the faith.

[Quaremerepulisti]

The only problem with this is the belief we are still in a war and fighting it. The truth is the war for society has been fought and it's over. We lost.

One of the more refreshingly honest things I've read on this forum.

[Josephine87]

If the Roman Christians were able to grow the faith in the catacombs beneath the sins and pressures of a pagan society, surely we can make the same effort in America (and elsewhere). It's not exactly the same, many prelates are often hostile to the faith and we're not being martyred but I don't see the need to throw in the towel or uproot our families. I would actually like to see some saints from families who fled the pagan cities to live good lives away from those bad influences. That would help convince me.

[bigbadtrad]

If the Roman Christians were able to grow the faith in the catacombs beneath the sins and pressures of a pagan society, surely we can make the same effort in America (and elsewhere). It's not exactly the same, many prelates are often hostile to the faith and we're not being martyred but I don't see the need to throw in the towel or uproot our families. I would actually like to see some saints from families who fled the pagan cities to live good lives away from those bad influences. That would help convince me.

Great point and if we were to grow saints organically from families that is the only solution I see. The catacombs were just that, a fleeing from a persecution. Today the American Psych Association has deemed traditional masculinity as "harmful" and lead to multiple pathologies. The ramifications from that statement are incalculable if a man is called into criminal or civil cases this can now be used against them. The catacombs are the only thing left, and while not living underground, but learning to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves while staying away and growing holiness organically within our families.

[Stefano]

Got 2 inquiries in last few days from 2 different SD'ers, seemingly unrelated, about moving to the Diocese of Tulsa here in Oklahoma.  Plus half a dozen similar requests for local info from SDers interested in re-locating here, in last couple years, usually about Clear Creek. Being back to the forum after several months, I saw this thread. 

Pros:

Clear Creek, FSSP Mass, one Motu Proprio Mass, Maronite rite.

Fiscally conservative.

Relatively good economy, good job market.


Cons:

Bishop Slattery retired. New bishop booted two trad religious communities.

SSPX recently left Tulsa.

Oklahoma has very little education or culture, which IMO explains why so few Catholics here are tradition-minded.

Clear Creek lay community has a lot of conflict among families of different ideologies, are mostly not traditionalists per se, a lot of unstable ways of living/poor access to work/etc.

FYI

But Will Rogers was from Oklahoma!

Thank you for this lovely information. I am going to be doing work training in Tulsa in the coming weeks, and I was planning on attending Mass at the FSSP parish there.

[christulsa]

Got 2 inquiries in last few days from 2 different SD'ers, seemingly unrelated, about moving to the Diocese of Tulsa here in Oklahoma.  Plus half a dozen similar requests for local info from SDers interested in re-locating here, in last couple years, usually about Clear Creek. Being back to the forum after several months, I saw this thread. 

Pros:

Clear Creek, FSSP Mass, one Motu Proprio Mass, Maronite rite.

Fiscally conservative.

Relatively good economy, good job market.


Cons:

Bishop Slattery retired. New bishop booted two trad religious communities.

SSPX recently left Tulsa.

Oklahoma has very little education or culture, which IMO explains why so few Catholics here are tradition-minded.

Clear Creek lay community has a lot of conflict among families of different ideologies, are mostly not traditionalists per se, a lot of unstable ways of living/poor access to work/etc.

FYI

But Will Rogers was from Oklahoma!

Thank you for this lovely information. I am going to be doing work training in Tulsa in the coming weeks, and I was planning on attending Mass at the FSSP parish there.

Instead come to the Motu Proprio Mass in Tulsa.  You can meet me and at least one other member of SD. 

[Gardener]

Thank you for this lovely information. I am going to be doing work training in Tulsa in the coming weeks, and I was planning on attending Mass at the FSSP parish there.

Please share your thoughts once you are done there. I'm trying to schedule time off work to go visit Tulsa so we can begin the plunge process.