Well, this is it. I really hate Trads. We're the most pathetic people on Earth and I can't even bear to interact with you all on an internet forum.
Something, somewhere, went awry in Tradition.
It is very evident from interacting with most Trads that being a Traditionalist is a LARP at best, and some edgy middle finger to society at worst.
None of you believe.
You're all cowards.
Maybe you'll get tired of getting your asses kicked by feminists, homos, and watching your culture get appropriated by Rabbis, but I doubt it. You'll keep getting beaten like pathetic losers and still make up excuses on why you're the wheat amongst the chafe.
The last 9 years on here have been a complete waste, as you're all too effeminate and stupid to see what I've been trying to teach you.
All other groups strive to achieve their goals but Trads who sit around getting beaten by the weakest low-lives while convincing yourselves you're too saintly to get your pretty little hands dirty.
Assisting at Low-Masses is the best because I can duck in and out without having to to look or talk to any of you people.
Pride comes before the fall and all you "saints in the making" are gonna come crashing down hard when God asks what you've invested and you tell Him "nothing, we figured you'd do it for us".
You can't sit around acting like some modern cage-dwelling slaves, enslaved into impotence by Satanic forces, and then call yourself a Traditionalist. The Saints and Martyrs that came before fought the world and you all surrender to it like cowards but try to claim the Saint's and Martyr's heritage as your own, when in fact you are a defilement to the Saint's and Martyr's legacy.
I would rather get shot than waste any more time interacting with Trads. Piss off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nca5ql4WNk0
Heh, I've definitely felt this way before, on occasion.
I wish you the best, dellery. May we one day meet again in the vision of the blessed. Pax Christi tecum sit.
Quote from: dellery on June 05, 2022, 03:53:19 AM
None of you believe.
You're all cowards.
Maybe you'll get tired of getting your asses kicked by feminists, homos, and watching your culture get appropriated by Rabbis, but I doubt it. You'll keep getting beaten like pathetic losers and still make up excuses on why you're the wheat amongst the chafe.
The last 9 years on here have been a complete waste, as you're all too effeminate and stupid to see what I've been trying to teach you.
All other groups strive to achieve their goals but Trads who sit around getting beaten by the weakest low-lives while convincing yourselves you're too saintly to get your pretty little hands dirty.
Assisting at Low-Masses is the best because I can duck in and out without having to to look or talk to any of you people.
Pride comes before the fall and all you "saints in the making" are gonna come crashing down hard when God asks what you've invested and you tell Him "nothing, we figured you'd do it for us".
You can't sit around acting like some modern cage-dwelling slaves, enslaved into impotence by Satanic forces, and then call yourself a Traditionalist. The Saints and Martyrs that came before fought the world and you all surrender to it like cowards but try to claim the Saint's and Martyr's heritage as your own, when in fact you are a defilement to the Saint's and Martyr's legacy.
I would rather get shot than waste any more time interacting with Trads. Piss off.
Thank you.
:lol:
What a wonderful way to begin a Sunday!
What happened?
Sounds like depression and discouragement. He needs our prayers.
:pray2:
This isn't his first rambunctious farewell post. [emoji38]
I think a good idea for Dellery is to get treatment for his alcoholism. By his own admission, he's drunk half the time.
Then he can work on all his other issues.
Why do you say that no one here does anything to improve things? Do you know the private life of the entire forum?
I don't know if this is because a thread I haven't read.
PS: In two weeks there are elections in Andalusia, Let's see how many seats VOX wins. And in 1.5 years are the national elections.
They have proposals that you would probably like, for example:
QuoteLegally safeguard the right to life from conception to death and end the culture of death, beginning with the derogation of the Euthanasia law and the free abortion law
And much more
This is the battle that must be fought now, the cultural and political battle to ending the barbarism of New Gomorrah.
Quote from: Goldfinch on June 05, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
I think a good idea for Dellery is to get treatment for his alcoholism. By his own admission, he's drunk half the time.
Then he can work on all his other issues.
You are getting him confused with Devoted Knuckles.
Quote from: Heinrich on June 05, 2022, 05:19:13 PM
Quote from: Goldfinch on June 05, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
I think a good idea for Dellery is to get treatment for his alcoholism. By his own admission, he's drunk half the time.
Then he can work on all his other issues.
You are getting him confused with Devoted Knuckles.
He has definitely stated that he has smoked pot frequently, that was before his last door slam.
What a fag!
A real man just leaves Dellery. Doesn't bitch like a teenaged girl.
It's weird reading something like this, I don't know what post(s) of mine you could be referring to if at all, nor do I follow all the threads/topics in this forum to even know what lead to something like this.
It does remind me of the following from St Faustina -
Know this, My daughter: if you strive for perfection you will sanctify many souls; and if you do not strive for sanctity, by the same token, many souls will remain imperfect. Know that their perfection will depend on your perfection, and the greater part of the responsibility for these souls will fall on you. (Diary, 1165)
Thus their sanctity will depend upon your sanctity (same thing for me and anyone else who reads it), did you pick up your weapon (The Holy Rosary) before writing something like this? I'm pretty confident you didn't.
God Bless
I would also say too, some are called to martyrdom, others are called to fight, but if you are called to fight, you should not lose your head due to impromptus zeal, Our Lord calls us to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, impromptus zeal is not wise.
Many of the early Christians were called to martyrdom during the Diocletian persecutions, it wasn't until Constantine the Great and the sign from heaven (Chi-Rho) that they were then called to fight. If you do not use your primary weapon (The Holy Rosary) then you wall fall into the trap laid by the devil, as did those who entered the Capitol on January 6th, innocent many of them were, just walking in through doors opened by the Capitol Police themselves, they were not wise at all, and fell right into the trap set by the enemy who then used it as an excuse to further their tyranny.
Similar thing happened when Napoleon lost majority of his army and was fleeing Russia, some in France thought this was their moment to conduct a coup while Napoleon's army was defeated and fleeing Russia, claiming that Napoleon had died... they thought wrong and they failed, then when Napoleon was finally defeated these people who lost their heads due to impromptu zeal could not re-build France in the wake of Napoleon's defeat..
God Bless
You are not a prophet called by God to instruct people in matters of the faith, you're just having a temper tantrum because better-informed people disagree with your opinions. Goodbye.
He's gone now. Sad he can't read some wise words from some fine people here on this here post thread.
Rough Day, Dellery?
I will pray for you. Btw, Bible says, we shouldn't hate anyone, above all other Traditional Catholics. But I hope you find Peace. Everyone has their struggles, and most Trads, imho, are just trying to keep the Faith and strive after sanctity, as we all should do. May Jesus and Mary keep you close to Their Holy Hearts and guide you, both in this life, and then to Eternity hereafter. God Bless.
[yt]https://youtu.be/CICIOJqEb5c[/yt]
Quote from: Kaesekopf on June 05, 2022, 11:23:49 AM
This isn't his first rambunctious farewell post. [emoji38]
That's because for as much as I find internet Trads to be pathetic and extremely irritating it's difficult to walk away from years of posting (even though I try to burn the bridge back) and I doubt there are many Admins that will be as generous with my ways as you have been.
I stand by what I wrote though and need to stop exposing myself Trad stupidity so much.
It also seems proper to let it be known how pathetic most Trads are. The ones who are not this way will know I'm not talking about them.
Anyhow, if you can't see that Trads don't even have a fraction of the devotion as queers do their cause, and don't think there's something very wrong with a situation in which a bunch of queers care more about codifying gay butt-sex that Catholics do advancing their Faith, you're blind.
I live a very stressful life and dealing with Trads is an act of charity that is getting harder and harder to stomach, in fact I can't take it anymore as Westerners are the fakest people on Earth.
Looking through the comments in this thread it looks like my words hit their mark and offended mostly the right kinds of people.
It's so funny that people who live and die by Christian principles are just an abstraction to Trads who think sharing Brother Nathiel type videos are what a man does.
Shrivel up and seethe, nerds. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJqpjbbdP3U
You all wonder why Pope Francis thinks we're a total joke too, but he's cunning enough to recognize a bunch of impotent wimps when he sees them, and this is why he's been able to wreck the Church with virtual impunity.
Keep convincing yourselves that you're "fighting" the system though, as it relies on dupes, like most Trads, to keep itself going.
Much as I am fit to fight but we can't be zealots ;)
Haven't you left yet, junkie?
You are addicted to this forum. Junkie boy.
Dope, booze, forums.
Weak minded.
Leave. Go on, be a man!
Quote from: MaximGun on June 06, 2022, 11:46:34 PM
Haven't you left yet, junkie?
You are addicted to this forum. Junkie boy.
Dope, booze, forums.
Weak minded.
Leave. Go on, be a man!
Says the guy with multiple usernames. You've already posted in this thread as Clau Clau and MaximGun, you gonna get in here and post as Larry, Frank, and Greg, too?? Why not get a conversation going with yourself?
Are you still here ?
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DinorrElWM[/yt]
Quote from: Julio on June 06, 2022, 10:05:25 PM
Much as I am fit to fight but we can't be zealots ;)
Well, a lot of Trads go around bragging about being the last Catholics and recounting stories of Lepanto and the Miracle of the Vistula and other such cringe inducing nonsense.
The last straw for me was in seeing Traditionalists priests thinking there's not much wrong with filling people's heads with fighting talk and then getting them to sit on their hands for eternity.
It's really starting to look like "Tradition" is just a pacifier given to Trads to make us shut up and accept incoming atrocities with docility.
Pope Francis has decimated the Church right in the face of a Traditionalist opposition that did nothing but grow and grow in the last decade and still remained completely ineffectual at doing anything to stop him.
Francis knew he could run roughshod over a bunch of posers and internet dwellers that can be easily distracted with talking head Youtube rants.
ah shut up already....we get it, you can't stand trads....not mad on most of them myself....move on then....but don't attack Lepanto and Our Lady's miracles....there is a line.
Quote from: clau clau on June 07, 2022, 03:25:45 AM
Are you still here ?
For the time being, Greg, but this is "goodbye". I do like where this thread is going right now though.
You sure you don't want to get in here and post under your other usernames?
Let Frank and Larry come in here and insecurely attempt to offend me too. ;D
Quote from: diaduit on June 07, 2022, 03:37:53 AM
ah shut up already....we get it, you can't stand trads....not mad on most of them myself....move on then....but don't attack Lepanto and Our Lady's miracles....there is a line.
What I meant by that is that to talk about the battles of Lepanto and Warsaw,
as an effeminate, ineffectual, Trad, is ridiculous and cringe inducing, not the battles themselves.
Quote from: dellery on June 07, 2022, 03:44:18 AM
You sure you don't want to get in here and post under your other usernames?
Let Frank and Larry come in here and insecurely attempt to offend me too.
Just a random interjection here, dellery, but how is it you've come to think the Larry account is a sock puppet of the forum user Greg? I like them both, but they look very different to me. Larry is an American cinephile, whereas Greg is a poetic Briton. If Greg is Larry (or Larry is Greg), then that person would be putting a lot of effort into crafting an alternate persona, all the way down to the variations in regional spelling. Occam's razor would suggest two separate persons.
Quote from: clau clau on June 06, 2022, 03:17:19 PM
[yt]https://youtu.be/CICIOJqEb5c[/yt]
I wonder, how much reefer did that hepcat on the percs consume?
Furthermore, to the OP, Dellery, please give some examples of what you have done corporally for us to model. You appear to have a delusion of being a top tier military operator with ninja like video game skills, but not once have you shared an anecdote. Greg, whom I have met, has shared some of his battles and sacrifices.
Quote from: dellery on June 07, 2022, 03:16:35 AM
Quote from: MaximGun on June 06, 2022, 11:46:34 PM
Haven't you left yet, junkie?
You are addicted to this forum. Junkie boy.
Dope, booze, forums.
Weak minded.
Leave. Go on, be a man!
Says the guy with multiple usernames. You've already posted in this thread as Clau Clau and MaximGun, you gonna get in here and post as Larry, Frank, and Greg, too?? Why not get a conversation going with yourself?
There is a large amount of evidence that MaximGun and Greg are the same person. Many people have commented on it and I myself consider this the most probable explanation for the similarities of opinions and posting patterns and some other things I have observed.
Frank and clau clau have identified themselves as brothers of Greg and I see no reason to doubt it. They tend to support and agree with Greg, but this is very plausibly due to family feeling rather than sock-puppetry. They have distinct personas from each other and from Greg/MaximGun.
Larry does not seem to have any connection to any of them. He has had an SD account since the first year of the forum and was active on Fisheaters before that under the same name. I dare say you were mixed up by the general confusion caused by having Greg and MaximGun write posts that are indistinguishable from each other.
If they are, in fact, the same person, then you are right that this shows an unhealthy attachment/ addiction to the forum. Greg had announced that he was leaving the forum forever and shortly afterwards MaximGun appeared.
Do you think using different non de plumes and accounts is wrong?
Quote from: Heinrich on June 07, 2022, 11:28:10 AM
Do you think using different non de plumes and accounts is wrong?
It depends on the reason and the circumstances. When this forum started a lot of us came over from Fisheaters with new names and made a sort of game of guessing who people were from their style, etc. Nothing wrong with that.
I also saw nothing wrong with Joseph changing his user name on occasion, since there was no deception involved.
But using sock puppets (one person with multiple accounts at the same time) is deceptive. And saying you are leaving but coming back pretending to be someone else is deceptive. And creating a new account to circumvent a ban is deceptive. These things are wrong.
Is rash judgement wrong?
Is asking leading questions wrong?
Is mayonnaise an instrument?
Is quoting the Koran in one's signature wrong?
Quote from: Heinrich on June 07, 2022, 10:06:54 AM
I wonder, how much reefer did that hepcat on the percs consume?
Furthermore, to the OP, Dellery, please give some examples of what you have done corporally for us to model. You appear to have a delusion of being a top tier military operator with ninja like video game skills, but not once have you shared an anecdote. Greg, whom I have met, has shared some of his battles and sacrifices.
I'll give you something, prolly not what you're looking for though.
At a young age I went through a bunch of tests, "gifted" type stuff. It all felt disgusting, and I answered all the questions wrong on purpose. Pretty much stopped going to school in early 7th grade, officially dropped out in the 9th, and I've been on SD longer than I was in school. This used to be extremely embarrassing because everybody I work around is far more educated than myself.
Feel free to think I'm a ninja though, if you really want to flatter me think of me as a ninja-turtle, I'm pretty sure they're still the strongest role models in my life.
Quote from: Goldfinch on June 07, 2022, 06:23:53 PM
Is quoting the Koran in one's signature wrong?
Yes, due to possibility of scandal if nothing else.
Quote from: Goldfinch on June 07, 2022, 06:23:53 PM
Is quoting the Koran in one's signature wrong?
Shouldn't you be hunting down innocent people on the internet and accusing them of being Jews, like a good Trad does?
Quote from: dellery on June 07, 2022, 06:30:35 PM
Quote from: Goldfinch on June 07, 2022, 06:23:53 PM
Is quoting the Koran in one's signature wrong?
Shouldn't you be hunting down innocent people on the internet and accusing them of being Jews, like a good Trad does?
I was under the impression that goldfinches are primarily herbivorous, though they do hunt insects to a limited extent during the summer.
(wow, this might just be one of the dumbest jokes I've ever made :lol:)
Quote from: dellery on June 07, 2022, 06:30:35 PM
Quote from: Goldfinch on June 07, 2022, 06:23:53 PM
Is quoting the Koran in one's signature wrong?
Shouldn't you be hunting down innocent people on the internet and accusing them of being Jews, like a good Trad does?
Why don't you answer this question you were asked -
Furthermore, to the OP, Dellery, please give some examples of what you have done corporally for us to model. You appear to have a delusion of being a top tier military operator with ninja like video game skills, but not once have you shared an anecdote. Greg, whom I have met, has shared some of his battles and sacrifices.
Isn't OP the guy who wanted the West invaded by mohammedans under the pretext of 'evangelizing the refugees'?
Quote from: diaduit on June 08, 2022, 03:35:21 AM
Quote from: dellery on June 07, 2022, 06:30:35 PM
Quote from: Goldfinch on June 07, 2022, 06:23:53 PM
Is quoting the Koran in one's signature wrong?
Shouldn't you be hunting down innocent people on the internet and accusing them of being Jews, like a good Trad does?
Why don't you answer this question you were asked -
Goldfinch was presumably addressing his question to JustinMartyr, the immediately preceding poster. This is an issue that has already come up between them. There is no reason that Dellery should respond.
It was a question from Heinrich.
Quote from: diaduit on June 08, 2022, 07:00:44 AM
It was a question from Heinrich.
Dellery had already responded (in reply #37) to Heinrich's question so it did not make sense to ask Dellery why he did not answer it.
There was a question earlier about rash judgment, apparently implying that people are guilty of this if they think that MaximGun and Greg are the same person. Rash judgment means making a judgment with insufficient evidence. In this case, there is a great deal of evidence, such that many reasonable people have reached the same conclusion.
Here is an example from today:
Quote from: MaximGun on June 08, 2022, 06:09:47 AM
Start buying decent second hand bicycles. You'll double your money by autumn.
And collect firewood this summer and stack it in the garden and cover it up with a tarp. It will be worth a lot of money to people with wood burning stoves come the winter because they cannot collect wet wood and burn it.
compare to:
Quote from: Greg on April 08, 2020, 11:16:08 AM
Top tip.
If you have any home exercise equipment and are willing to deliver it in a 30 mile radius of your home put it on eBay. People are paying stupid money for it currently
I just sold a TS01 running machine with incline I paid 155 pounds for in 2017 for 480 pounds including delivering it 8 miles away. Last month I sold an erg for 500 quid but that was before lockdown.
Punch bags, weights, dumbells, exercise balls, bikes, sell it now and buy it back later when lockdown is over and there is a glut of it being sold and it will be much cheaper.
Paranoid middle classes all competing on line for crap to keep them entertained. Good time to sell DVDs, video games, laptops, PCs, homescooling books and other stuff as people cannot get it from closed stores.
Good time to buy cars.
It is reasonable to suspect that these posts were written by the same person. When one sees such similarities over and over again, this is sufficient evidence to reach a conclusion without it being rash.
Perhaps the most telling piece of evidence is the fact that neither Greg nor MaximGun has ever explicitly denied it, in spite of many people accusing or speculating about it. The closest they came to a denial was in response to me saying that I would assume they were the same person unless I saw denials from them. At that point Greg said "Don't be paranoid" and MG said "I have never met Greg". These give the impression of denial without actually denying.
Reply 37 does not answer heinrichs question....
This is a pretty faggy thread. My apologies.
This thread is evidence that I do need to be leaving though.
I'm a straight-up basket case. The necessities of life force me to keep my problems in check, but it's too easy to let them effect my behavior on the internet. Giving a little bit of ground to my demons, even on the internet, is too much.
People can poke fun at me for having issues, they can judge me for frequently drinking and having smoked pot, it doesn't bother me at all. I don't have any shame. Having suffered catastrophic emotional injuries several times over, among other hardships, I'm still on my feet and moving forward.
The last 12 years have been so hard. 2010 to 1015 almost broke me. Throughout my entire time posting on Catholic forums, I've been dealing with too much baggage to even be embarrassed by it anymore.
The Traditionalist Movement has become deeply upsetting to me and I now think it's wrong. Not that I think Tradition is wrong. You can't get me to assist at a New Mass save for exceptional circumstances. The Traditionalist Movement though appears to be nothing but a dead branch.
Honestly, look at the Church nowadays, it looks like nothing but clerical infighting over the laity who's support they need. The Church is infested with clerical leaches from the New Order parishes to the Traditional ones. This isn't to say there are no good priests, I know many, but the entire system seems set up to compete for the last few Catholics in order to guarantee retirement.
The divisions within Tradition are utterly foolish. So what a Sedevacantist doesn't think Pope Francis is the Pope? Are they claiming another man besides Benedict XVI is the Pope?? If not then who cares? It should be fairly understandable to see why somebody would think Francis, although occupying the Seat of Peter, has effectively lost the papacy. So what a person doesn't feel comfortable resisting Pope Francis? It should be equally understandable to see why somebody would not feel comfortable resisting the Pope himself and choses not to. Likewise, it should be easily understandable as to why some people still think Pope Benedict XVI is still Pope. These are all stupid, superficial, disagreements that don't even touch on doctrine. Of course the SSPX, Sedevacantists, and NO priests will tell you otherwise, but that's because they're afraid you'll give your money to the other guys. Anybody who had the best interests of the Church at heart would negate these disagreements and build unity around doctrine and Tradition themselves without ever forcing divisive political, and, or disciplinary expectations on people.
Anyhow, I thank Kaesekopf for allowing me to post on here for so long.
My apologies to the many people I have offended and have been a jerk to.
^God bless, brother. Posting while high or drunk is the reason "Woodstock" lost its charm. Substance abuse is it and we just need to be obedient to His will. Whatever you do just remember, "Thy will be done."
So a man with drink, drug, emotional issues, is telling people he likes 'Tradition' but not the entire movement that allows it to continue to exist. Which is mostly made up of sober large families who contribute their sons and daughters and dead widow's real estate to supply the masses and sacraments he attends and the books, videos and writing he consumes.
Don't ask what Traditionalists can do for you, but rather what you have done for Traditionalists.
Quote from: dellery on June 08, 2022, 09:10:59 PM
This is a pretty faggy thread. My apologies.
The divisions within Tradition are utterly foolish. So what a Sedevacantist doesn't think Pope Francis is the Pope? Are they claiming another man besides Benedict XVI is the Pope?? If not then who cares? It should be fairly understandable to see why somebody would think Francis, although occupying the Seat of Peter, has effectively lost the papacy. So what a person doesn't feel comfortable resisting Pope Francis? It should be equally understandable to see why somebody would not feel comfortable resisting the Pope himself and choses not to. Likewise, it should be easily understandable as to why some people still think Pope Benedict XVI is still Pope. These are all stupid, superficial, disagreements that don't even touch on doctrine. Of course the SSPX, Sedevacantists, and NO priests will tell you otherwise, but that's because they're afraid you'll give your money to the other guys. Anybody who had the best interests of the Church at heart would negate these disagreements and build unity around doctrine and Tradition themselves without ever forcing divisive political, and, or disciplinary expectations on people.
Anyhow, I thank Kaesekopf for allowing me to post on here for so long.
My apologies to the many people I have offended and have been a jerk to.
I was not making fun of you for smoking pot, I was saying it as a point for posters to understand that's part of the 'door slam'.....sometimes someone acting like this needs a slap across the face with a glove...that was why I said 'ah shut up'......not that it matters but it wasn't personal and I'm not offended.
As for your last paragraph.....wholeheartedly agree, its like I say to trads sometimes, I don't give a flying fig if the pope wears red shoes or not...I go to the mass of all ages coz we really haven't a clue what is the absolute right side in this last battle.
I have been waiting for someone to say this.
Quote from: MaximGun on June 08, 2022, 10:16:18 PM
Don't ask what Traditionalists can do for you, but rather what you have done for Traditionalists.
Quote from: diaduit on June 08, 2022, 07:00:44 AM
It was a question from Heinrich.
Right. And Dellery provided not one shred of evidence that he is doing valiantly sacrificial work to restore all things to Christ. This gaping hole in his Crusader application is quite telling since he's denigrating everyone in Traddom.
So why is the pile on continuing after dellery apologized?
Personally, I find his general criticisms of trads less problematic than the sort of personal attacks and false accusations of fellow forum members that we so often see here. Oddly enough, some of the people most active in making and/or thanking attacks on individuals are the ones most involved in giving dellery a hard time for his general remarks.
They were not general attacks, his op is full vitriol against trads and he has since apologised which I'm glad he has done.
I mean, trads are straight up bat-sh*t crazy. At least by the standards of the world. Who has 10 kids and is in their right mind? However, our main problem is that we have no real guidance or figure to look to. The situation is a complete mess and there are no tangible, clear answers. I can also understand dellery's frustration with some trads. Let's be real; there are some friggin' weirdos out there in traddom. So many LARPing little cults like the 'resistance' that are completely out of their mind. Anyhow dellery, I wish you all the best going forward and stay strong. God bless.
Quote from: diaduit on June 09, 2022, 11:07:15 AM
They were not general attacks, his op is full vitriol against trads and he has since apologised which I'm glad he has done.
(https://thetoxicfreefoundation.com/images/ingredient-images/Sulfuric_Acid_500x500.jpg)
see:oil of vitriol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid)
Quote from: diaduit on June 09, 2022, 11:07:15 AM
They were not general attacks, his op is full vitriol against trads and he has since apologised which I'm glad he has done.
And aren't some of the personal attacks posted here full of vitriol? I have seen some extremely ugly things here (and I've seen you thank them).
Have you ever noticed that most normal posters here don't give a crap about your needless contrarian byte points?
Heinrich, you are not qualified to be the spokesman for the "normal posters" here. Just speak for yourself.
Quote from: Jayne on June 09, 2022, 10:03:27 AM
So why is the pile on continuing after dellery apologized?
This was not one of his best apologies. Usually he posts something like this and then in a few days apologizes and admits he was not himself and completely wrong; one can sympathize with someone being stuck in that cycle and wait it out. We all have our weaknesses.
One cannot sympathize with someone who genuinely thinks they are justified in criticizing literally the best of the best of all the human beings alive on earth. Who is better than traditional Catholics? Which other group should we look to as a superior example?
"There is nothing worse than seeing someone do the impossible and then criticizing them for not doing it better."
Quote from: queen.saints on June 09, 2022, 02:54:16 PM
One cannot sympathize with someone who genuinely thinks they are justified in criticizing literally the best of the best of all the human beings alive on earth. Who is better than traditional Catholics? Which other group should we look to as a superior example?
I strongly disagree that trads are "the best of the best of all human beings". We are the most blessed. We go to the best Mass. We have more opportunities to receive Grace. But we are just as weak and sinful as anybody else.
As St. Paul said " For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ Jesus. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency may be of the power of God, and not of us." (2Cor4:6,7)
We are "earthen vessels" not superior beings. And anybody who considers himself (or the group he belongs to) as above criticism has made a horrible mistake. We should be trying to "be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect" not congratulating ourselves on being better than those who have not received the graces that we have.
Quote from: Jayne on June 09, 2022, 03:42:45 PM
Quote from: queen.saints on June 09, 2022, 02:54:16 PM
One cannot sympathize with someone who genuinely thinks they are justified in criticizing literally the best of the best of all the human beings alive on earth. Who is better than traditional Catholics? Which other group should we look to as a superior example?
I strongly disagree that trads are "the best of the best of all human beings". We are the most blessed. We go to the best Mass. We have more opportunities to receive Grace. But we are just as weak and sinful as anybody else.
As St. Paul said " For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ Jesus. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency may be of the power of God, and not of us." (2Cor4:6,7)
We are "earthen vessels" not superior beings. And anybody who considers himself (or the group he belongs to) as above criticism has made a horrible mistake. We should be trying to "be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect" not congratulating ourselves on being better than those who have not received the graces that we have.
As Saint Patrick, a sinner, said,
"
I cannot be silent – nor would it be good to do so – about such great blessings and such a gift that the Lord so kindly bestowed in the land of my captivity.
This is how we can repay such blessings, when our lives change and we come to know God, to praise and bear witness to his great wonders before every nation under heaven."
Yes, traditional Catholics are the most blessed, have the best Mass, the best opportunities for grace.
We also have among our ranks the very holiest -perhaps the only holy- people on earth.
We have the most sincere people who are trying the hardest of anyone to be good.
We have the best religious who do the most good of any other humans on earth.
We have the best mothers and the best fathers with the best children.
We have the best young people, the most truly beautiful girls, and the most truly manly boys.
We have the best intellectuals, the best artists, the best teachers, the best students, and the best patrons of their works.
We have the most loyal members of the Church
We have the best safe guarders of local tradition and culture.
Not because of any personal merit, but because of the incredible generosity of God who has showered us with the very best blessings.
And to consider these greatest and best of people and the incredible privilege of being a fellow member of their group as a precious gift that is to be honored and treated with the greatest respect and that we will not hear spurious insults of is not a mistake, it is our sacred duty of charity and piety.
In order to know if someone is the best of a group, one needs to measure and compare all the members of the group. It is meaningless to make assertions about "the best" when one cannot do this. One cannot, for example, say that trads have the best children unless one knows all children. (And I have no idea how one could objectively determine the goodness of children in order to compare them.)
There is no reason to think that any of the claims that queen.saints makes in her list of "bests" is true. Even if they were true, it would not be possible to know that they are true. It is mere cheerleading: "Yay, our team is the best!"
Self-criticism is a key component in growth in holiness. This is why we are encouraged to have a daily examination of conscience. I can see a lot more value in asking oneself "What are characteristic faults of trads and do I share them?" than in her litany of "yay us".
Quote from: queen.saints on June 09, 2022, 05:24:25 PM
And to consider these greatest and best of people and the incredible privilege of being a fellow member of their group as a precious gift that is to be honored and treated with the greatest respect and that we will not hear spurious insults of is not a mistake, it is our sacred duty of charity and piety.
So well expressed! Maybe the Holy Ghost visited you on Pentecost.
It is important to recognize the bad so that we can avoid them, but it is even more important to recognize the good when we encounter them. If we fail to recognize the good, then on the one hand we miss out on our most essential opportunities, while on the other hand we run the risk of insulting God's chosen ones, which is the thing that God hates more than anything else, as we know from the Bible but also more recently from the life of Anna Maria Taigi.
A neighbor woman was spreading scandal about Anna Maria Taigi. Jesus was incensed and said that he was determined to destroy her. Blessed Anna Maria asked Him to forgive the woman, but Jesus replied, "No, my wrath is already enkindled, and it will not be called back."
Quote from: Melkor on June 09, 2022, 11:29:40 AM
However, our main problem is that we have no real guidance or figure to look to.
Which is neither the fault of the laity nor the role of the laity to "fix." The basic contradictory premise of Dellery is that lay people are supposed to "do something," and of course, we're never sure what all the angry trads mean by that: armed battle? A modern-day Avignon somewhere with a competing Pope?
An
essential tenet of Tradition -- not an optional tenet -- is that lay people have zip power to engineer of their own accord significant changes in Church operations. The main difference between today's trads and Catholics in the Middle Ages (all of whom were trads) is the education/literacy factor. But because Catholics are now educated and converse on discussion forums does not give us standing to initiate political changes in the See or the local dioceses. Catholic discussion forums are not Political Action Committees, and they're certainly not military units.
Yes, Live Action Role Playing is a product of education, especially when combined with eloquence because it simulates reality but is empty of it. It's especially an illusion when it comes to Catholic Restoration. This is not to say that a great leader might not come along -- in the Church and/or in society but friendly to the Church, such as a faithful Catholic leader. But if it happens, it is doubtful it will happen through direct efforts of lay trads, including those on discussion forums.
This is why I consider dellery's anger misdirected.
I sometimes get weary of Sunday sermons where the priest as good as they are talk about 'dangers of pride in traditional circles', many many times I have heard these sermons.
I've never once heard a priest in 35 years say, well done, first you metaphorically waded through the filthy swamp and found the mass all while family and friends and normies laughed and mocked you, then you got married and have your children only to struggle with schooling either at home or fighting the local school at every turn because they have a terrible liberal curriculum, you men work in jobs while trying to maintain some sort of modesty of the senses and try to say prayers during the day in an environment that is not Catholic , you ladies who learn to live with the loneliness of being a housewife while your neighbours are all gone to the city each day to work, do your chores often while pregnant and managing a tight budget usually in a small home because these days large houses are too expensive and every day the world becomes more anti Catholic in an increasing savage whirlwind from the devil.....good on you trudging in here for the love of God on Sundays.
Someday may we all hear 'well done thy good and faithful servant'.
And to be honest most trads have in some way or another fought for God, it just doesn't make the headlines.
Quote from: diaduit on June 10, 2022, 02:41:39 AM
I sometimes get weary of Sunday sermons where the priest as good as they are talk about 'dangers of pride in traditional circles', many many times I have heard these sermons.
Maybe it's because there's a danger of pride in traditional circles.
If you want homilies that tell you how good you are try attending the Novus Ordo.
Quote from: Jayne on June 10, 2022, 12:30:58 PM
Quote from: diaduit on June 10, 2022, 02:41:39 AM
I sometimes get weary of Sunday sermons where the priest as good as they are talk about 'dangers of pride in traditional circles', many many times I have heard these sermons.
Maybe it's because there's a danger of pride in traditional circles.
If you want homilies that tell you how good you are try attending the Novus Ordo.
Hahhaaa good one but thats not what I am after, its the incessant bashing of trads for fear they might get uppity.
Quote from: diaduit on June 10, 2022, 12:48:07 PM
Quote from: Jayne on June 10, 2022, 12:30:58 PM
Quote from: diaduit on June 10, 2022, 02:41:39 AM
I sometimes get weary of Sunday sermons where the priest as good as they are talk about 'dangers of pride in traditional circles', many many times I have heard these sermons.
Maybe it's because there's a danger of pride in traditional circles.
If you want homilies that tell you how good you are try attending the Novus Ordo.
Hahhaaa good one but thats not what I am after, its the incessant bashing of trads for fear they might get uppity.
While Dellery's criticisms were questionable, it seems likely that the priests preaching on the dangers of pride know what they are talking about. It is not fair to describe that as "bashing of trads". it sounds like they are doing their best for the souls in their care.
We are unable to do any good of our own accord. If we do any good, it is due to God' s grace in us. Thus if we accomplish any thing that is good, we should be thanking God for His grace enabling us to do it, not expecting the priests for thanks. Pride is prevalent among trads. That's why you/we hear so many sermons on it.
I say that we trads are among the worst of people. That's why God called us to the traditional practice of the faith. He knew that we are the ones who need the most graces to make our salvation.
Quote from: orate on June 10, 2022, 05:53:09 PM
We are unable to do any good of our own accord. If we do any good, it is due to God' s grace in us. Thus if we accomplish any thing that is good, we should be thanking God for His grace enabling us to do it, not expecting the priests for thanks. Pride is prevalent among trads. That's why you/we hear so many sermons on it.
I say that we trads are among the worst of people. That's why God called us to the traditional practice of the faith. He knew that we are the ones who need the most graces to make our salvation.
Perhaps an approach in line with past saints might work. I don't have knowledge of literally every one of them. But I remember seeing a few well known ones viewing themselves as the worst sinner they knew of. This attitude is reflected by Eastern Catholics in the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom shortly before holy communion. Obviously balance is needed in that attitude.
Quote from: orate on June 10, 2022, 05:53:09 PM
We are unable to do any good of our own accord. If we do any good, it is due to God' s grace in us. Thus if we accomplish any thing that is good, we should be thanking God for His grace enabling us to do it, not expecting the priests for thanks. Pride is prevalent among trads. That's why you/we hear so many sermons on it.
I say that we trads are among the worst of people. That's why God called us to the traditional practice of the faith. He knew that we are the ones who need the most graces to make our salvation.
Then why does Christ put the onus on us?
If YOU love me keep my commandments.
The parable of the talents, the workers in the vineyard and other statements of Christ don't suggest we are passive vessels. Rather they suggest it is a co-operation between man and God. Many are called, but few are chosen.
Quote from: orate on June 10, 2022, 05:53:09 PM
We are unable to do any good of our own accord. If we do any good, it is due to God' s grace in us. Thus if we accomplish any thing that is good, we should be thanking God for His grace enabling us to do it, not expecting the priests for thanks. Pride is prevalent among trads. That's why you/we hear so many sermons on it.
I say that we trads are among the worst of people. That's why God called us to the traditional practice of the faith. He knew that we are the ones who need the most graces to make our salvation.
Nope, not looking for priests to thank us and thats an exaggeration of what I said. Of course there is a place for sermons on pride but it would be balanced if only once they would recognise just how dam hard it is to be a trad.
Your last line is rubbish, how can you say that we are the worst people when there are abortionists ripping babies apart in the womb or paedos raping children as we speak. Saying this does not wipe out my sin and this reminds me of the line in the act of contrition...'I detest MY sins ABOVE every other evil' but you cannot say trads are trads because they are the worst. Trads are sinners who are at least trying and know they need and love God. To say we are the worst is pure nonsense, what we have is a heavier burden and no loophole of ignorance.
Fr Ripperger has said he gets frustrated with Catholics saying God loves us all equally....NO He does not, how can anyone say that HE loves us the same as He loves Our Lady, we wouldn't even compare in the slightest, that is why there is a hierarchy in Heaven. God has favourites, while on alive on Earth we all can earn our spot in Heaven but its down to who cooperates with His grace.
We are obliged to believe "I am the worst sinner." Me. Not you. Not we.
For all other people we are obliged to put the best possible interpretation on their actions and when forced to make a judgement, to only judge what we can know for a fact. I cannot find the sermon, but the The Cure of Ars said that to attribute bad motives to someone's good actions means one of two things.
1) we are God and can read his heart and see his is a hypocrite, like Jesus did
2) we are envious of their good qualities.
He said since it goes without saying that we are not God, and if we do not wish to be envious of others, then never again attribute bad motives to someone.
Objectively traditional Catholics are the ones who have the One True Faith and practice it the best. One could say, "Despite having such good examples in other traditional Catholics, I am the worst." but one can never say, because one can never know, that anybody else is a bad person but oneself.
I was taught that it is not pride to praise one's superiors, because they are an extension of God, and, therefore, by praising them we are praising Him. It can only be pride to praise our inferiors under our care, because they are to a certain extent an extension of us, like our children. Even then, Saint Don Bosco said we should try to never criticize our children in public, only privately and discreetly, causing them the least embarrassment.
Also, who are these imaginary traditional Catholics who are the worst people? Not the ones in my family, not in my school, not in my parish, not in my travels, nor online. In all these groups, some of the traditional Catholics are objectively the very best people I have ever met, who have given me the best example and who have taught me the most about God.
Most of the traditional Catholics priests are on a transfer cycle, like the ICK and the SSPX, so they kill themselves for their parishes driving hither and thither and working themselves sick and then never get to enjoy any of their labors before they have to move on to another parish. A purely selfless act for the greater glory of God. Not a way to make money. Our last pastor did this. He got a government grant to fix up the historic church, worked himself to the bone organizing the project, while he made time to give amazing pastoral help to so many people, and then he got transferred just as things would have gotten easier for him.
https://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Sermons/JdVianey/Sermons.htm#THE%20TONGUE%20OF%20THE%20SCANDAL-MONGER
YOUR HEART IS BUT A MASS OF PRIDE
You will tell me, perhaps, that you never judge people except by what you see or after you have actually heard or been the witness of some action: "I saw him doing this action, so I am sure. I heard what he said with my own ears. After that, I could not be mistaken."
But I shall reply by telling you to begin by entering into your own heart, which is but a mass of pride wherein everything is dried up. You will find yourself infinitely more guilty than the person whom you are so boldly judging, and you have plenty of room for fear, lest one day you will see him going to Heaven while you are being dragged down to Hell by the demons." Oh, unfortunate pride," says St. Augustine to us, "you dare to judge your brother on the slightest appearance of evil, and how do you know that he has not repented of his fault and that he is not numbered among God's friends? Take care rather that he does not take the place which your pride is putting you in great danger of losing."
Yes, my dear brethren, all these rash judgments and all these interpretations come only from a person who has a secret pride, who does not know himself, and who dares to wish to know the interior life of his neighbour, something which is known to God alone. If only, my dear children, we were able to arrive at the stage of eradicating this first of the capital sins from our hearts, our neighbour would never do any wrong according to us. We should never amuse ourselves by examining his conduct. We should be content to do nothing else save weep for our own sins and work as hard as we could to correct them.
Contents
THE TONGUE OF THE SCANDAL-MONGER
Anyone who is unfortunate enough to come under the tongue of the scandalmonger is like a grain of corn under the grinding stone in a mill: he is torn, crushed, entirely destroyed. People like these will fasten onto you intentions that you never had; they will poison all your actions and your movements. If you have enough piety to wish to fulfil your religious duties, you are only a hypocrite, an angel in the church and a demon in the house. If you do any good or charitable works, they will think that this is just through pride and so that you may gain notice. If you are not worldly and not interested in worldly affairs, you are said to be odd and singular and to have no spirit. If you look after your own affairs carefully, you are nothing but a miser. Let me go further, my dear brethren, and say that the tongue of the scandalmonger is like the worm which gnaws at the good fruit -- that is, the best actions that people do -- and tries to turn all to bad account.
The tongue of the scandalmonger is a grub which taints the most beautiful of the flowers and upon them leaves behind it the disgusting trace of is own slime.
Contents
OH, EVERYONE SAYS SO!
Have you ever listened to someone speaking well of a young woman and recounting her good qualities? Someone else will certainly tell you that if this young woman has good qualities, she has plenty of bad ones, too.... She is frequenting the company of So-and-So, who does not have a good reputation.... I am very full sure they are not seeing each other for any good purpose.... And what about this other woman, who is always so well dressed and who keeps her children dressed up, too? .... She would do much better to pay her debts.... And then there is this other one: she always seems good and pleasant to everyone, but if you knew her as well as I do, you would have a different opinion.... She only puts on all these smiles as a blind.... Such and such a man is going to ask her to marry him, but if he asked my advice, I could tell him a few things he doesn't know....
"Who is that person going past?" asks someone else.
"Ah, well, if you don't know her, it's no great loss. I won't say any more about her. Keep out of her company -- it's a cause of scandal. Everyone thinks so. Listen, the very worst people are ones like her who put up to be good and holy. Anyway, it's always the way that the people who want to pass for virtuous or pious are the most wicked and spiteful."
"She must have done you some grave harm. Has she?"
"Oh, no! But you know well that they are all the same. I happened to be with one of my oldest acquaintances one day, and I discovered that he was quite a heavy drinker and a real blackguard."
"Maybe he did something which angered you?" the other will say.
"Ah, no, he never said anything to me which shouldn't have been said, but everyone thinks that of him."
"If it weren't you who told me, I would never have believed"
"When he's with people who do not know him, he knows very well how to act the hypocrite in order to make people believe that he is a very decent fellow. It's like one day I happened to be with So-and-So, whom you know very well -- he is another virtuous man. If he doesn't do anyone any harm, he doesn't deserve any credit for that. It is just that he is not in a position to do so. I assure you that I would not like to find myself alone with him."
"He did you some harm sometime perhaps?"
"He did not indeed, because I have never had anything to do with him."
"And how do you know, then, that he is so bad?"
"Oh, it's not hard to find that out. Everyone says he is. He is just like that one who was with you one day -- to hear him talk you would say that he is the most charitable man in the world and that he would never refuse anything to anyone who asked him for help. And all the time he would travel ten miles to gain two pennies. I assure you that nowadays you can't know people at all; you can't trust anyone. It is just the same with that fellow you were talking to just now. He looks after his affairs very well; he keeps up a good appearance always, and all his family look well turned out, too.... It's not so very difficult, really-he works at night, you know."
"Have you seen him taking anything, then?"
"Oh, no, I have never seen him taking anything. But I was told that one fine night he went back into his house well loaded with stuff. In any case, he has none too good a reputation."
And the speaker concludes: "I'm not saying that I have no faults myself, but I would be eternally sorry to be as worthless as some of these people."
In all of this you can see the notorious Pharisee, who fasts twice a week, who pays tithes of all he possesses, and who thanks God that he is not as the rest of men -- extortioners, unjust, adulterers! Here you can see this pride, this hatred, this jealousy!
Contents
ST. NICHOLAS AND THE THREE GIRLS
Tell me, now, my brethren, on what foundation are rash judgments and sentences based? Alas! They are based upon very slight evidence only, and most often upon what "someone said." But perhaps you are going to tell me that you have seen and heard this and that. Unfortunately, you could be mistaken in the testimony of both your sight and hearing, as you are going to see.... Here is an example which will show you, better than anything else can, how easily we can be mistaken and how we are nearly always wrong.
What would you have said, my dear brethren, if you had been living during the time of St. Nicholas and you had seen him coming in the middle of the night, walking around the house of three young girls, watching carefully and taking good care that no one saw him. Just look at that bishop, you would have thought at once, degrading and dishonouring his calling; he is a dreadful hypocrite. He seems to be a saint when he is in church, and look at him now, in the middle of the night, at the door of three girls who do not have a very good reputation! And yet, my dear brethren, this bishop, who would certainly have been condemned by you, was indeed a very great saint and most dear to God. What he was doing was the best deed in the world. In order to spare these young persons the shame of begging, he came in the night and threw money in to them through their window because he feared that it was poverty which had made them abandon themselves to sin.
This should teach us never to judge the actions of our neighbour without having reflected very well beforehand. Even then, of course, we are only entitled to make such judgments if we are responsible for the behaviour of the people concerned, that is, if we are parents or employers, and so on. As far as all others are concerned, we are nearly always wrong. Yes indeed, my brethren, I have seen people making wrong judgments about the intentions of their neighbour when I have known perfectly well that these intentions were good. I have tried in vain to make them understand, but it was no good. Oh! Cursed pride, what evil you do and how many souls do you lead to Hell! Answer me this, my dear brethren. Are the judgments which we make about the actions of our neighbour any better founded than those which would have been made by anyone who might have seen St. Nicholas walking around that house and trying to find the window of the room wherein were the three girls?
It is not to us that other people will have to render an account of their lives, but to God alone. But we wish to set ourselves up as judges of what does not concern us. The sins of others are for others, that is, for themselves, and our sins are our own business. God will not ask us to render an account of what others have done but solely of what we ourselves have done.
Let us watch over ourselves, then, and not torment ourselves so much about others, thinking over and talking about what they have done or said. All that, my dear brethren, is just so much labor lost, and it can only arise from a pride comparable to that of the Pharisee who concerned himself solely with thinking about and misjudging his neighbour instead of occupying himself with thoughts of his own sins and weeping for his own poor efforts. Let us leave the conduct of our neighbour on one side, my dear brethren, and content ourselves with saying, like the holy King David: Lord, give me the grace to know myself as I really am, so that I may see what displeases Thee, and how to correct it, repent, and obtain pardon.
No, my dear brethren, while anyone passes his time in watching the conduct of other people, he will neither know nor belong to God.
Maxim, I did not imply passivity. I meant that one does actively as much as God enables us to do. What we do we do by His grace.
Diaduit, Have you ever heard the saying, "But for the grace of God go I." But for the grace of God, I could be that abortionist or pedofile. Maybe had that abortionist or pedofile been given the graces I have, he would be higher in sanctity than I. I use the most repulsive of sinners as an example of just how far anyone can fall.
We are all sinners. Yes, we can judge the actions of others as either good or evil, but it is only God's grace that enables us do do good. Even the movement to love Him is due to God's grace.
Quote from: orate on June 11, 2022, 10:46:44 AM
Maxim, I did not imply passivity. I meant that one does actively as much as God enables us to do. What we do we do by His grace.
Diaduit, Have you ever heard the saying, "But for the grace of God go I." But for the grace of God, I could be that abortionist or pedofile. Maybe had that abortionist or pedofile been given the graces I have, he would be higher in sanctity than I. I use the most repulsive of sinners as an example of just how far anyone can fall.
We are all sinners. Yes, we can judge the actions of others as either good or evil, but it is only God's grace that enables us do do good. Even the movement to love Him is due to God's grace.
Orate , I say 'therefore by the grace of God go I ' when I see what others suffer either poverty, sickness, dysfunctional families, addictions etc....but spare me the nonsense that the poor abortionists or paedo are evil because of circumstance, its pure and simple love of the evil they lust for and no, I just would never do anything like that because it repulses me even if I was never born a Catholic.
Westside story has a great song where the gangs are singing mocking Officer Krupke with these lyrics.
https://www.westsidestory.com/gee-officer-krupke
Quote from: queen.saints on June 11, 2022, 05:46:31 AM
We are obliged to believe "I am the worst sinner." Me. Not you. Not we.
THIS.
There's nothing Catholic about the assigning of sin -- or the presumption of it -- to an entire group, including one of which we are a member. It reveals a great lack of charity.
It may be valid to notice trends or temptations to certain vices among movements of all kinds, but it's much more likely that those who already tend to certain vices are attracted to movements which they
believe enable those vices or protect them comfortably.
For example, a couple of members of our parish were angry people long before tradition took hold as a defining feature of our location. This is evident in their own self-descriptions. How representative they are of "tradition as a whole" would be a supposition without evidence, even though it's clear that the increasing trajectory toward tradition here is a convenient refuge for them.
Objectively, the seven Capital Sins will always be Capital Sins, however any person regards any of them. They are not less the causes of personal sin in certain environments, nor are they more excusable in certain environments.
Some apparent trends in vice and virtue, I have observed, seem to vary according to region. In regions characterized by high levels of education (advanced degrees and such) and which include a large core of professionals, the temptation to pride in a parish-- or something I think is closer to complacency/self-satisfaction -- can be a prominent feature. But that can be equally true in N.O. educated environments. It's just that most trads don't travel equally in both circles, so there's no reliable way to compare.
...and we have to remember that the most vocal members of any group do not necessarily represent the majority of a group, and even less so the entirety of it. Sometimes, the most vocal people are the decided minority; it's just that they may be the most motivated and possibly the self-appointed salesmen/saleswomen of a movement.
Quote from: Miriam_M on June 12, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
There's nothing Catholic about the assigning of sin -- or the presumption of it -- to an entire group, including one of which we are a member. It reveals a great lack of charity.
Are you including homilies in this, as another poster did? I think it is very appropriate for priests to talk about sins that are a general problem for their parishioners.
Quote from: Miriam_M on June 12, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
Quote from: queen.saints on June 11, 2022, 05:46:31 AM
We are obliged to believe "I am the worst sinner." Me. Not you. Not we.
THIS.
There's nothing Catholic about the assigning of sin -- or the presumption of it -- to an entire group, including one of which we are a member. It reveals a great lack of charity.
It may be valid to notice trends or temptations to certain vices among movements of all kinds, but it's much more likely that those who already tend to certain vices are attracted to movements which they believe enable those vices or protect them comfortably.
For example, a couple of members of our parish were angry people long before tradition took hold as a defining feature of our location. This is evident in their own self-descriptions. How representative they are of "tradition as a whole" would be a supposition without evidence, even though it's clear that the increasing trajectory toward tradition here is a convenient refuge for them.
Objectively, the seven Capital Sins will always be Capital Sins, however any person regards any of them. They are not less the causes of personal sin in certain environments, nor are they more excusable in certain environments.
Some apparent trends in vice and virtue, I have observed, seem to vary according to region. In regions characterized by high levels of education (advanced degrees and such) and which include a large core of professionals, the temptation to pride in a parish-- or something I think is closer to complacency/self-satisfaction -- can be a prominent feature. But that can be equally true in N.O. educated environments. It's just that most trads don't travel equally in both circles, so there's no reliable way to compare.
Part of it is that the world around you is so screwed up that your parish is like a haven of decency and common sense. So it is natural to feel proud of that. Young people at your parish with babies are married, not true in the world. I know loads of people who have a wedding a decade or more after starting a family. If you mention abortion nobody is going to rant at you in offense because they had an abortion and want to justify it, not true in the world. Everywhere else you have to be ready to offend people for stating what their own grandparents believed.
I think Trads are mostly proud of their parish because it is the only bubble of sanity left around them. If you had a life-raft, would you consider it just as a means to an end, a bundle of sticks and old barrels, or, because it was saving you from drowning would you name it, decorate it, love it. The parish the local chapel is the life raft. People are proud to be Trads because they know the alternative is much worse.
I have never found the priests' sermons about such 'pride' very compelling for this reason. It's a raft. I need it. When the Roman Catholic Church recovers and offers my warm blankets, hot soup and a cabin I will take it.
Quote from: Jayne on June 12, 2022, 03:34:02 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on June 12, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
There's nothing Catholic about the assigning of sin -- or the presumption of it -- to an entire group, including one of which we are a member. It reveals a great lack of charity.
Are you including homilies in this, as another poster did? I think it is very appropriate for priests to talk about sins that are a general problem for their parishioners.
I do not believe my earlier comments made reference to priests talking about trends in their own parish. I have never heard a priest of a particular parish discuss the supposed sins of traditionalists
as a group and as a movement, which he would not be in a position to know, since no priest is pastor or rector of all traditionalist Catholics or even most of them. Priests cannot read souls from a distance; only God can do that -- although it's inaccurate to say He does so "from a distance." Human beings are distant from each other's souls, while God is not.
Lay people on this thread were discussing the supposed sins of trads as a whole and as a movement. The generalizations are both inaccurate and uncharitable.
Despite your uncharitable "farewell," may God be with you and keep you.
Quote from: MaximGun on June 05, 2022, 11:18:39 PM
What a fag!
A real man just leaves Dellery. Doesn't bitch like a teenaged girl.
In his defense, I see many people here, ostensibly men, who frequently "bitch like a teenaged girl" because the Church leadership isn't giving them the traditional Church they want. I find it discouraging, too. I find traditionalists in general to be as effeminate as liberals. Whether Dellery is this way too is beside the point.
I have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here. As I see more fights being picked by liberal trolls, and more "Catholics" p!ssing and moaning about how everybody's woke, I'm wondering why I keep coming back for more. At least the woke are honest about what they're about.
Still, when (not if) I finally leave, you won't know until some time has gone by and I haven't posted.
Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: MaximGun on June 05, 2022, 11:18:39 PM
What a fag!
A real man just leaves Dellery. Doesn't bitch like a teenaged girl.
In his defense, I see many people here, ostensibly men, who frequently "bitch like a teenaged girl" because the Church leadership isn't giving them the traditional Church they want. I find it discouraging, too. I find traditionalists in general to be as effeminate as liberals. Whether Dellery is this way too is beside the point.
I have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here. As I see more fights being picked by liberal trolls, and more "Catholics" p!ssing and moaning about how everybody's woke, I'm wondering why I keep coming back for more. At least the woke are honest about what they're about.
Still, when (not if) I finally leave, you won't know until some time has gone by and I haven't posted.
I wouldnt notice one bit if you left. Actually, with iinsults like this, I would be quite satisfied. Go eat your fish and chips with your Henry.8 buds.
Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 09:58:30 AMI have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here.
Emphasis mine.
This is a good example of why people need to take a step back and realize that interaction on a forum is not like interaction in person. From reading posts on this forum, you don't know enough about people to be able to make that claim. It's just hyperbole to make your point. Most people here don't even post that often. You're making an assumption based on a few posters posting quite frequently.
This is why online people who have never met in person cannot be friends. You don't know them, they don't know you, and you really can't say that much about them.
^^I think virtual friends is okay at least on the basis of the concept and idea that the forum members share like the subjects on Catholicism. I agree with the rest of those that you stated.
Quote from: The Curt Jester on December 18, 2022, 02:12:43 PM
Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 09:58:30 AMI have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here.
Emphasis mine.
This is a good example of why people need to take a step back and realize that interaction on a forum is not like interaction in person. From reading posts on this forum, you don't know enough about people to be able to make that claim. It's just hyperbole to make your point. Most people here don't even post that often. You're making an assumption based on a few posters posting quite frequently.
This is why online people who have never met in person cannot be friends. You don't know them, they don't know you, and you really can't say that much about them.
People who at least interface via video chat or online games with voice chat can very much become real friends. Some marriages have even resulted from online gaming and also enduring friendships when people meet.
Quote from: Julio on December 18, 2022, 04:39:06 PM
^^I think virtual friends is okay at least on the basis of the concept and idea that the forum members share like the subjects on Catholicism. I agree with the rest of those that you stated.
Yes. But the fact you have to add "virtual" means it's something entirely different.
Quote from: Prayerful on December 18, 2022, 04:57:41 PM
People who at least interface via video chat or online games with voice chat can very much become real friends. Some marriages have even resulted from online gaming and also enduring friendships when people meet.
When they meet in person? I agree. You can find people online who later become personal friends, but it's because you meet them. I met my wife via an online platform, but I wouldn't have chosen to marry her without interacting with her in person for a significant amount of time. A forum, a website, a chat room, or a phone can be a method used to meet people, but if that's ALL there is, then you've still not met the real person.
Quote from: Heinrich on December 18, 2022, 11:56:51 AMI wouldnt notice one bit if you left. Actually, with iinsults like this, I would be quite satisfied. Go eat your fish and chips with your Henry.8 buds.
They're certainly a much better influence on me. That fact should give you an attack of conscience, not make you want to lash out at me.
Quote from: The Curt Jester on December 18, 2022, 02:12:43 PM
Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 09:58:30 AMI have 3 Anglican friends (not related to me or each other), and they're better Catholics than most of the people on here.
Emphasis mine.
This is a good example of why people need to take a step back and realize that interaction on a forum is not like interaction in person. From reading posts on this forum, you don't know enough about people to be able to make that claim. It's just hyperbole to make your point. Most people here don't even post that often. You're making an assumption based on a few posters posting quite frequently.
This is why online people who have never met in person cannot be friends. You don't know them, they don't know you, and you really can't say that much about them.
In general, all this is true. But more and more, I'm seeing that such behavior is the logical conclusion of traditionalism, and that's why I've been questioning it. Somehow, we think we, not the Church, are the keepers of the truth. Yes, there are problems in how the Church hierarchy handles just about everything. But we're not trying to solve them by following the way of prayer, humility, and the Cross like the Saints, but by following the way of rebellion like Martin Luther. The result is a bunch of prima donnas who demand that the Church conform to their desires, just like liberals. I don't want to be like that, and neither should anyone else, but traditionalism has certainly contributed to my being like that.
So, maybe this is goodbye, I don't know. Still working a lot of things out,
Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 05:59:28 PM
In general, all this is true. But more and more, I'm seeing that such behavior is the logical conclusion of traditionalism, and that's why I've been questioning it. Somehow, we think we, not the Church, are the keepers of the truth. Yes, there are problems in how the Church hierarchy handles just about everything. But we're not trying to solve them by following the way of prayer, humility, and the Cross like the Saints, but by following the way of rebellion like Martin Luther. The result is a bunch of prima donnas who demand that the Church conform to their desires, just like liberals. I don't want to be like that, and neither should anyone else, but traditionalism has certainly contributed to my being like that.
Regardless of what a general trend may or may not be, you don't have the information to make the blanket statement you made earlier. That puts you in the position of saying who is and who is not a good Catholic. Do you really want to put yourself on that pedestal after what you said about Trads?
Quote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 05:22:39 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on December 18, 2022, 11:56:51 AMI wouldnt notice one bit if you left. Actually, with iinsults like this, I would be quite satisfied. Go eat your fish and chips with your Henry.8 buds.
They're certainly a much better influence on me. That fact should give you an attack of conscience, not make you want to lash out at me.
I would hope so. We dont even know one another. And to promote non Catholic ,,yeoman" contra Catholics on a Catholic forum reveals a questionable character. I have met a good number of the men here and consider them friends and role models. I take it personally when some itinerant and Victorian leaning poster disputes their piety and charitable bone fides.
Anglicans that are better Catholics is a completely ridiculous statement.
Quote from: Heinrich on December 18, 2022, 07:00:11 PMQuote from: Polymath on December 18, 2022, 05:22:39 PMQuote from: Heinrich on December 18, 2022, 11:56:51 AMI wouldnt notice one bit if you left. Actually, with iinsults like this, I would be quite satisfied. Go eat your fish and chips with your Henry.8 buds.
They're certainly a much better influence on me. That fact should give you an attack of conscience, not make you want to lash out at me.
I would hope so. We dont even know one another. And to promote non Catholic ,,yeoman" contra Catholics on a Catholic forum reveals a questionable character. I have met a good number of the men here and consider them friends and role models. I take it personally when some itinerant and Victorian leaning poster disputes their piety and charitable bone fides.
I wouldn't mind him. He threw a hissy fit and displayed some of the feminine traits he was so quick to condemn, because some other posters and I criticized a man whining about "why can't I get da gurls". Said whiner talked about being fat, struggling with porn, living at home at nearly 40 years old, and feeling a sense of "responsibility to his healthy, non-bedridden or severely I'll mother, who was already living with another man she had remarried.