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Contempt for leaders

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Daniel:

--- Quote from: TandJ on May 02, 2021, 02:37:12 PM ---Well surprisingly yesterday I read (in either Davis or Connells moral theology) that you have to obey even an illegitimate leader. I was shocked to read that

--- End quote ---

I don't know who Davis and Connell are, but this is incorrect. Or, at the very least, it can't possibly be universally binding. (If it was, we'd be then morally bound to obey everyone and anyone who tries to boss us around. Not only is this absurd, but in practice it would be an impossible rule to live by, since there might be one person commanding you to do X and another person forbidding you from doing X. As soon as that happens you'd be forced to sin, since you can't possibly obey both "leaders".)


As for the original post, we really shouldn't be making fun of anybody.

VivaCristoRey:

--- Quote from: Vetus Ordo on May 02, 2021, 02:18:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: VivaCristoRey on May 01, 2021, 06:09:57 PM ---
--- Quote from: TandJ on May 01, 2021, 04:30:45 PM ---Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

--- End quote ---

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.
--- End quote ---

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.

--- End quote ---

Iím not really concerned. No Russian collusion was found, despite millions of taxpayer dollars spent on the investigation. You can consider Biden legitimate but I donít. Iím not going to pretend like I do by calling him ďPresident Biden.Ē

Vetus Ordo:

--- Quote from: VivaCristoRey on May 02, 2021, 04:07:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: Vetus Ordo on May 02, 2021, 02:18:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: VivaCristoRey on May 01, 2021, 06:09:57 PM ---
--- Quote from: TandJ on May 01, 2021, 04:30:45 PM ---Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

--- End quote ---

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.
--- End quote ---

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.

--- End quote ---

Iím not really concerned. No Russian collusion was found, despite millions of taxpayer dollars spent on the investigation. You can consider Biden legitimate but I donít. Iím not going to pretend like I do by calling him ďPresident Biden.Ē
--- End quote ---

If the legitimacy of a given head of state, duly sworn in and recognized as such by the branches of government, were dependent upon the personal opinion of each citizen, then the command to honor leaders and superiors could never really be enforced and the system itself would collapse.

The same reasoning applies to the question of the pope. It would all be reduced to a no true Scotsman situation. "Why don't you obey so and so?" Because, according to my interpretation, so and so is not the "true President" or the "true Pope". And so forth.

VivaCristoRey:

--- Quote from: Vetus Ordo on May 02, 2021, 06:51:43 PM ---
--- Quote from: VivaCristoRey on May 02, 2021, 04:07:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: Vetus Ordo on May 02, 2021, 02:18:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: VivaCristoRey on May 01, 2021, 06:09:57 PM ---
--- Quote from: TandJ on May 01, 2021, 04:30:45 PM ---Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

--- End quote ---

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.
--- End quote ---

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.

--- End quote ---

Iím not really concerned. No Russian collusion was found, despite millions of taxpayer dollars spent on the investigation. You can consider Biden legitimate but I donít. Iím not going to pretend like I do by calling him ďPresident Biden.Ē
--- End quote ---

If the legitimacy of a given head of state, duly sworn in and recognized as such by the branches of government, were dependent upon the personal opinion of each citizen, then the command to honor leaders and superiors could never really be enforced and the system itself would collapse.

The same reasoning applies to the question of the pope. It would all be reduced to a no true Scotsman situation. "Why don't you obey so and so?" Because, according to my interpretation, so and so is not the "true President" or the "true Pope". And so forth.

--- End quote ---

Biden has more than sufficient military and police force to maintain power, despite the opinions of a number of citizens who donít think heís illegitimate. Of course, if the vast bulk of a citizenry stopped recognizing the legitimacy of their government, it probably would fall. Thatís happened on more than a few occasions. Some level of popular support is necessary for a government. The fact is, corrupt governments exist and fraudulent elections happen. You are free to disagree with my assessment of Biden and the last election. It really doesnít bother me. Nothing will change the fact weíre stuck with this guy for 4-8 years. But accepting or rejecting the legitimacy of the last election is not a matter of Catholic faith and morals, and I am free to draw a different conclusion in accordance with my conscience.

Daniel:

--- Quote from: VivaCristoRey on May 02, 2021, 07:53:26 PM ---But accepting or rejecting the legitimacy of the last election is not a matter of Catholic faith and morals,

--- End quote ---

Practically speaking, I think it is a matter of morals. And this is what concerns me. We may not fall into heresy if we guess wrong. Nevertheless, the Church teaches that we are morally obligated to obey the civil authorities. Now it would seem that we do not know who the civil authorities are, but that doesn't mean we're off the hook. We have to make a guess, and, if we guess wrong, and if we subsequently disobey, then we are accountable for our disobedience, because we willfully disobeyed. But I think we can hope in God to move us and inspire us that we may guess correctly and act accordingly, if we are of good will and if we pray about it.

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