Author Topic: Contempt for leaders  (Read 1780 times)

Offline TandJ

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Contempt for leaders
« on: May 01, 2021, 04:30:45 PM »
Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months
 
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Offline Melkor

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2021, 04:37:35 PM »
Biden is a joke and the election was almost 💯 % rigged. Donít worry about making fun of him. We do the same with our gay-boy Trudeau.
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Offline VivaCristoRey

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2021, 06:09:57 PM »
Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2021, 02:18:27 PM »
Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline TandJ

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2021, 02:37:12 PM »
Well surprisingly yesterday I read (in either Davis or Connells moral theology) that you have to obey even an illegitimate leader. I was shocked to read that
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2021, 04:00:35 PM »
Well surprisingly yesterday I read (in either Davis or Connells moral theology) that you have to obey even an illegitimate leader. I was shocked to read that

I don't know who Davis and Connell are, but this is incorrect. Or, at the very least, it can't possibly be universally binding. (If it was, we'd be then morally bound to obey everyone and anyone who tries to boss us around. Not only is this absurd, but in practice it would be an impossible rule to live by, since there might be one person commanding you to do X and another person forbidding you from doing X. As soon as that happens you'd be forced to sin, since you can't possibly obey both "leaders".)


As for the original post, we really shouldn't be making fun of anybody.
 

Offline VivaCristoRey

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2021, 04:07:05 PM »
Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.

Iím not really concerned. No Russian collusion was found, despite millions of taxpayer dollars spent on the investigation. You can consider Biden legitimate but I donít. Iím not going to pretend like I do by calling him ďPresident Biden.Ē
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2021, 06:51:43 PM »
Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.

Iím not really concerned. No Russian collusion was found, despite millions of taxpayer dollars spent on the investigation. You can consider Biden legitimate but I donít. Iím not going to pretend like I do by calling him ďPresident Biden.Ē

If the legitimacy of a given head of state, duly sworn in and recognized as such by the branches of government, were dependent upon the personal opinion of each citizen, then the command to honor leaders and superiors could never really be enforced and the system itself would collapse.

The same reasoning applies to the question of the pope. It would all be reduced to a no true Scotsman situation. "Why don't you obey so and so?" Because, according to my interpretation, so and so is not the "true President" or the "true Pope". And so forth.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 07:05:53 PM by Vetus Ordo »
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Offline VivaCristoRey

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2021, 07:53:26 PM »
Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.

Iím not really concerned. No Russian collusion was found, despite millions of taxpayer dollars spent on the investigation. You can consider Biden legitimate but I donít. Iím not going to pretend like I do by calling him ďPresident Biden.Ē

If the legitimacy of a given head of state, duly sworn in and recognized as such by the branches of government, were dependent upon the personal opinion of each citizen, then the command to honor leaders and superiors could never really be enforced and the system itself would collapse.

The same reasoning applies to the question of the pope. It would all be reduced to a no true Scotsman situation. "Why don't you obey so and so?" Because, according to my interpretation, so and so is not the "true President" or the "true Pope". And so forth.

Biden has more than sufficient military and police force to maintain power, despite the opinions of a number of citizens who donít think heís illegitimate. Of course, if the vast bulk of a citizenry stopped recognizing the legitimacy of their government, it probably would fall. Thatís happened on more than a few occasions. Some level of popular support is necessary for a government. The fact is, corrupt governments exist and fraudulent elections happen. You are free to disagree with my assessment of Biden and the last election. It really doesnít bother me. Nothing will change the fact weíre stuck with this guy for 4-8 years. But accepting or rejecting the legitimacy of the last election is not a matter of Catholic faith and morals, and I am free to draw a different conclusion in accordance with my conscience.
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2021, 08:42:58 PM »
But accepting or rejecting the legitimacy of the last election is not a matter of Catholic faith and morals,

Practically speaking, I think it is a matter of morals. And this is what concerns me. We may not fall into heresy if we guess wrong. Nevertheless, the Church teaches that we are morally obligated to obey the civil authorities. Now it would seem that we do not know who the civil authorities are, but that doesn't mean we're off the hook. We have to make a guess, and, if we guess wrong, and if we subsequently disobey, then we are accountable for our disobedience, because we willfully disobeyed. But I think we can hope in God to move us and inspire us that we may guess correctly and act accordingly, if we are of good will and if we pray about it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 08:46:28 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline Melkor

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2021, 08:53:00 PM »
Render unto Caesar. Was Caesar a ďlegitimateĒ leader? No. But Our Lord pair taxes and obeyed the census decree. Does this mean we have to obey the government in things that arenít evil? Yes. Can we trash Biden for the incoherent child sniffer he is? Damn right we can.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2021, 09:43:46 PM »
Iíve just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I donít have to obey a president who is illegitimate. Iím guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.

Iím not really concerned. No Russian collusion was found, despite millions of taxpayer dollars spent on the investigation. You can consider Biden legitimate but I donít. Iím not going to pretend like I do by calling him ďPresident Biden.Ē

If the legitimacy of a given head of state, duly sworn in and recognized as such by the branches of government, were dependent upon the personal opinion of each citizen, then the command to honor leaders and superiors could never really be enforced and the system itself would collapse.

The same reasoning applies to the question of the pope. It would all be reduced to a no true Scotsman situation. "Why don't you obey so and so?" Because, according to my interpretation, so and so is not the "true President" or the "true Pope". And so forth.

Biden has more than sufficient military and police force to maintain power, despite the opinions of a number of citizens who donít think heís illegitimate. Of course, if the vast bulk of a citizenry stopped recognizing the legitimacy of their government, it probably would fall. Thatís happened on more than a few occasions. Some level of popular support is necessary for a government. The fact is, corrupt governments exist and fraudulent elections happen. You are free to disagree with my assessment of Biden and the last election. It really doesnít bother me. Nothing will change the fact weíre stuck with this guy for 4-8 years. But accepting or rejecting the legitimacy of the last election is not a matter of Catholic faith and morals, and I am free to draw a different conclusion in accordance with my conscience.

The question is not whether you agree with the legitimacy of the elections or not. Personally, I think all elections of such magnitude are rigged one way or the other. History teaches us that. Even Charles V, an otherwise godly ruler, rigged his way into the imperial throne through unashamed bribery. Papal elections are also full of stories like that.

The point is that once a given head of state is legally recognized as such, you owe him a modicum of respect. It's part of one's character to show respect to people in authority and not behave as resentful brats. Otherwise, how would the command to honor leaders and superiors be enforced to begin with? One can always invoke reasons as to why A or B is not the "true" superior, leader, president, king, etc. Biden, for all intents and purposes, is the president of the United States. No-one else is. The same way Trump was before him, the Left's pouts notwithstanding. As such, you owe him the respect due to his office, regardless of how you think he got there. That's all it means.
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Offline james03

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2021, 10:01:57 PM »
Quote
This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.
  You are foreign, so I don't expect you to know the details, but that was not the case.  The position of the Left was that Trump broke the law and needed to be impeached, that is, lawfully removed from office, as in, he was the President.

The position from the Right is that Biden was never elected, and he's not the President.
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Offline james03

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2021, 10:05:41 PM »
Did the Catholic Church condemn the Sanfedisti?  No.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline james03

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Re: Contempt for leaders
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2021, 10:11:35 PM »
Vetus,
Do you condemn Franco?
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"