Theory about The Crisis and the chaos

[TheReturnofLive]

King of the Strawmen.

I also never said whether or not Mary Alacoque's vision was legitimate or not, I just said that that one element caused me to raise an eyebrow when I heard it.

It's not my place to question it - it's just a detail of it that is strange for my ears.

[Gardener]

Was replying to King W

[Gerard]

That's not one of my complaints about Fatima, but if I recall, the discussion was about the state of souls who are beholding the beatific vision.  Catholic doctrine teaches that souls in Heaven are in a state of eternal and perpetual happiness. 

So, the contradiction is in the images of ticked off Jesus and weepy, miserable Mary.  They are either perpetually happy or not.  I'll stick with Catholic doctrine over contradictory imagery. 

There - right there is what I was trying to get at during the half of my post. I guess I'm not criminally insane and did, in fact, see Gerard post such nonsense.

First off, Gerard, do you believe that we should pray to the Saints for our own problems?

Yes.

If it's the case that the Saints have no reason to care about the Earth or it's inhabitants, praying to them is either pointless -

I never stated that the saints don't care about humanity or souls.  Being happy doesn't make a person stop caring. 

or if you believe that some kind of grace can come from their own personal being, as if they were a cause of grace that doesn't ultimately come from God - it's pure idolatry.

Saints are valuable because they can obtain things for us from God that we, by ourselves cannot.  This is especially true when we are in the state of sin. 

God gave us a safety net for when we are in sin.  He won't hear any prayers other than those of repentance from sinners.  But He will listen to their Guardian Angels and the Saints. 

Your problem is that your viewing eternal bliss and concern for humanity is something as a strict dichotomy, when it can't possibly be.

No.  I'm saying that displays of unhappy emotions are nonsensical to being who are in eternal bliss.  That has nothing to do with their level of concern.  Oftentimes, the person that comes to your aid is the one who does not have the same emotional investment as someone who is compassionate towards your emotions. 

After all, God got jealous, wrathful, upset towards the ways the Israelites behaved - but to say that God is anger, God is jealousy, God is sadness is blasphemy.

Those are all symbolic uses of language to describe the natural consequences of what happens when one transgresses God.  Our perception categorizes God as being "angry" when the results of disobeying Him are catastrophic. 

But God doesn't have the potential to "get angry."  He's unchanging. 

Indifference towards the concerns of others is not happiness, and if you can't see that, you should start by praying the Our Father twice a day.

Indifference doesn't factor in at all. 

I saw a homeless guy outside a local store earlier this week.  I don't know his situation, I don't have the time, the means or the opportunity to find out in depth or help him.  I bought an extra drink..  one of those all natural combo fruit and vegetable mixes.  I figured it's the healthiest drink in the store.  As I was walking out, one of the store clerks was telling him he had to shove off and not loiter.  As we passed, I handed him the drink and I kept walking.  He murmured a "thank you." 

I didn't cry, I didn't make a big show of anything.  I didn't want him to make a big show for me.  He needed something (anything) I gave him something. 

My mood didn't change significantly.  I'm sure the saints in Heaven can do much more, concerning and observing much worse and they never lose the joy of God in their sight. 

I doubt St. Francis of Assisi is still reacting to lepers sores as he did when he was on earth.  But I bet, he does more now, than he did when he was here body and soul. 

[TheReturnofLive]

Was replying to King W

I know.

[Gerard]

Fourth, If I'm wrong and it turns out that there is a threat against the King of France similar to that of Fatima. I'll conclude that it was also a false apparition. 

Who do you think you are? Emperor Justinian, who saw the Byzantine Empire and the Church as one?

No. I'm just a Catholic that is free to not believe in apparitions, like all Catholics. 

God can make threats against earthly empires all he wants, as the Power of Binding and Loosing is exclusive to the Hierarchy of the Church, and no other organization.

The Church isn't an earthly empire, it's His own Divinely Instituted Church.  He's not going to make Himself a liar and renege on the power He's given men to run it. 

Even in Russian Orthodoxy, there are Elders, decades before 1917, who warned people that if the Russian people didn't stop being hedonistic, materialistic, and godless, God would take away the Russian Empire and submit the Russians to a period of mass persecution, by watering the country with the blood of Martyrdom to eventually renew it (some have even said to make it a place of refuge during the Reign of the Antichrist)

Whoop tee doo. 

After all, what sense does it make that God can allow the nation of Israel - the one he made a Covenant with - to be destroyed, when he can't do it likewise to nations which have no such Covenant?

I'm confused as to where you are going with this.   Is there some connection to Fatima and the threat against the papacy you want to bring home to this topic? 

[TheReturnofLive]

God gave us a safety net for when we are in sin.  He won't hear any prayers other than those of repentance from sinners.  But He will listen to their Guardian Angels and the Saints. 

Including praises to God, as written in the Book of Psalms?

[awkwardcustomer]

Regardless of any misplaced zeal, faulty memories, what have you, do you not think that maybe Our Father in Heaven prefers that we concentrate on the general messages and not the details of them? 

Just as it is prudent to read the small print before signing a contract, because the small print tends to be where the horrors are hidden, so it is important to attend to the details of the messages from visionaries because that will be where any problems lie.

The devil is in the detail.

In the Gospels, Our Lord speaks in broad terms about the End Times. In Revelation, John recounts his vision of the Apocalypse -- the bad with the good. In that vision, images are conveyed which are symbols.  In neither case are the particulars important.

The messages, combined:
Devotion to the Sacred Heart;
Devotion to Our Lady, including her general warnings about the sinful trends of mankind in the 20th century and the need for prayer;
The disruption and tumult accompanying the end of this world and the definitive separation of the good from the bad;
The triumph of the forces of good (God, Our Mother, the Saints)

This would be fine if Fatima was just Fatima, in other words, the apparitions that occurred in the Cova Da Iria from May to September 1917, the only part of Fatima that has been approved by the Church.

But Fatima has become Fatimism, and Fatimism was born of deception, starting with Sr Lucy lying to the Canonical Enquiry by not revealing the Secrets or their contents, and continuing with the fabrications of the Fatimists who have created a narrative that is full of holes.

Visionaries who lie, and supporters of that visionary who make things up, should be attended to with urgency, IMO.  Would Our Lady not agree with this, especially as the lies are being told in her name?

[Innocent Smith]

Regardless of any misplaced zeal, faulty memories, what have you, do you not think that maybe Our Father in Heaven prefers that we concentrate on the general messages and not the details of them? 

Just as it is prudent to read the small print before signing a contract, because the small print tends to be where the horrors are hidden, so it is important to attend to the details of the messages from visionaries because that will be where any problems lie.

The devil is in the detail.

In the Gospels, Our Lord speaks in broad terms about the End Times. In Revelation, John recounts his vision of the Apocalypse -- the bad with the good. In that vision, images are conveyed which are symbols.  In neither case are the particulars important.

The messages, combined:
Devotion to the Sacred Heart;
Devotion to Our Lady, including her general warnings about the sinful trends of mankind in the 20th century and the need for prayer;
The disruption and tumult accompanying the end of this world and the definitive separation of the good from the bad;
The triumph of the forces of good (God, Our Mother, the Saints)

This would be fine if Fatima was just Fatima, in other words, the apparitions that occurred in the Cova Da Iria from May to September 1917, the only part of Fatima that has been approved by the Church.

But Fatima has become Fatimism, and Fatimism was born of deception, starting with Sr Lucy lying to the Canonical Enquiry by not revealing the Secrets or their contents, and continuing with the fabrications of the Fatimists who have created a narrative that is full of holes.

Visionaries who lie, and supporters of that visionary who make things up, should be attended to with urgency, IMO.  Would Our Lady not agree with this, especially as the lies are being told in her name?

Your comments are right on the money. Which opens up an opportunity for me to mention that I think these fabrications come from a lack of real faith in Christ and the Divine Mission of His Church. There is no need, as far as I can tell, to keep adding on and finding more "connections" to offer as proofs. It really starts to resemble mental illness. And shame on those who use it to line their pockets whilst weakening the minds of those that follow them.

One almost gets the idea that many would have abandoned the Faith long ago if not for Fatima "stirring up their hearts".

[TheReturnofLive]

Fourth, If I'm wrong and it turns out that there is a threat against the King of France similar to that of Fatima. I'll conclude that it was also a false apparition. 

Who do you think you are? Emperor Justinian, who saw the Byzantine Empire and the Church as one?

No. I'm just a Catholic that is free to not believe in apparitions, like all Catholics. 

God can make threats against earthly empires all he wants, as the Power of Binding and Loosing is exclusive to the Hierarchy of the Church, and no other organization.

The Church isn't an earthly empire, it's His own Divinely Instituted Church.  He's not going to make Himself a liar and renege on the power He's given men to run it. 

Even in Russian Orthodoxy, there are Elders, decades before 1917, who warned people that if the Russian people didn't stop being hedonistic, materialistic, and godless, God would take away the Russian Empire and submit the Russians to a period of mass persecution, by watering the country with the blood of Martyrdom to eventually renew it (some have even said to make it a place of refuge during the Reign of the Antichrist)

Whoop tee doo. 

After all, what sense does it make that God can allow the nation of Israel - the one he made a Covenant with - to be destroyed, when he can't do it likewise to nations which have no such Covenant?

I'm confused as to where you are going with this.   Is there some connection to Fatima and the threat against the papacy you want to bring home to this topic?

You said that if the Sacred Heart made a threat against the Kingdom of France, you would reject it too - but I see no problem with God making threats against earthly kingdoms, precisely because the Church != earthly kingdom.

Rejecting an prophecy on the basis of a threat to an empire is not a valid reason to reject it. There may be other reasons to reject it, but this isn't one of them.

[Kreuzritter]

Fourth, If I'm wrong and it turns out that there is a threat against the King of France similar to that of Fatima. I'll conclude that it was also a false apparition. 

Who do you think you are? Emperor Justinian, who saw the Byzantine Empire and the Church as one?

No. I'm just a Catholic that is free to not believe in apparitions, like all Catholics. 

God can make threats against earthly empires all he wants, as the Power of Binding and Loosing is exclusive to the Hierarchy of the Church, and no other organization.

The Church isn't an earthly empire, it's His own Divinely Instituted Church.  He's not going to make Himself a liar and renege on the power He's given men to run it. 

Even in Russian Orthodoxy, there are Elders, decades before 1917, who warned people that if the Russian people didn't stop being hedonistic, materialistic, and godless, God would take away the Russian Empire and submit the Russians to a period of mass persecution, by watering the country with the blood of Martyrdom to eventually renew it (some have even said to make it a place of refuge during the Reign of the Antichrist)

Whoop tee doo. 

After all, what sense does it make that God can allow the nation of Israel - the one he made a Covenant with - to be destroyed, when he can't do it likewise to nations which have no such Covenant?

I'm confused as to where you are going with this.   Is there some connection to Fatima and the threat against the papacy you want to bring home to this topic?

You said that if the Sacred Heart made a threat against the Kingdom of France, you would reject it too - but I see no problem with God making threats against earthly kingdoms, precisely because the Church != earthly kingdom.

Rejecting an prophecy on the basis of a threat to an empire is not a valid reason to reject it. There may be other reasons to reject it, but this isn't one of them.

As if the Bible weren't full of actual threats by God and his prophets to earthly kingdoms, Israel herself, and even churches.

[mikemac]

So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.

From the Raccolta, prayer 84.

http://www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/index.htm

84.  PRAYERS FOR EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, WITH THREE "AVE MARIA'S" ETC.

Pope Pius VII., of holy memory, at the prayer of the Chapter of the Basilica of St. Mary in Cosmedin here in Rome, by a Rescript of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, dated June 21, 1808, kept in the Archivium of the said Basilica, granted -
i. An indulgence or 300 days, once a day, to all the faithful who, with contrite hearts, say the following prayers to our Blessed Lady, extracted from the spiritual works of the holy Bishop Alphonsus Maria de' Liguori, each on that day of the week to which it has been assigned, together with three Ave Maria's, with the intention of making some reparation to her for the many blasphemies which have been, and are daily uttered against her, not only by unbelievers, but even by bad Christians.
ii. A plenary indulgence, once a month, to all who say these prayers, with three Ave Maria's, daily for a whole month, with the intention above named, on any one day when, after Confession and Communion, they shall pray to God for the Holy Church, &c.

PRAYER FOR FRIDAY.

O Mary, thou art the noblest, highest, purest, fairest creation of Coil, the holiest of all creatures! O, that all men knew thee, loved thee, my Queen, as thou deservest to be loved!  Yet great is my consolation, Mary, that there are blessed souls in the courts of Heaven, and just souls still on earth, whose hearts thou leadest captive with thy beauty and thy goodness. But above all I rejoice in this, that our God himself loves thee alone more than all men and angels together. I too, O Queen most loveable, I, miserable sinner, dare to love thee, though my love is too little; I would I had a greater love, a more tender love: this thou must gain for me, since to love thee is a great mark of predestination, and a grace which God grants to those who shall be saved. Moreover, O my Mother, when I reflect upon the debt I owe thy Son, I see He deserves of me an immeasurable love. Do thou, then, who desirest nothing so much as to see Him loved, pray that I may have this grace - a great love for Jesus Christ. Obtain it, thou who obtainest what thou wilt. I covet not goods of earth, nor honours, nor riches, but I desire that which thine own heart desires most, - to love my God alone. O, can it be that thou wilt not aid me in a desire so acceptable to thee? No: it is impossible! even now I feel thy help, even now thou prayest for me. Pray for me, Mary, pray; nor ever cease to pray, till thou dost see me safe in Paradise, where I shall be certain of possessing and of loving my God and thee, my dearest Mother, for ever and for ever. Amen.

Then say three Ave Maria's to the Blessed Virgin Mary in reparation for the blasphemies uttered against her.

[Kreuzritter]

Regardless of any misplaced zeal, faulty memories, what have you, do you not think that maybe Our Father in Heaven prefers that we concentrate on the general messages and not the details of them? 

Just as it is prudent to read the small print before signing a contract, because the small print tends to be where the horrors are hidden, so it is important to attend to the details of the messages from visionaries because that will be where any problems lie.

The devil is in the detail.

In the Gospels, Our Lord speaks in broad terms about the End Times. In Revelation, John recounts his vision of the Apocalypse -- the bad with the good. In that vision, images are conveyed which are symbols.  In neither case are the particulars important.

The messages, combined:
Devotion to the Sacred Heart;
Devotion to Our Lady, including her general warnings about the sinful trends of mankind in the 20th century and the need for prayer;
The disruption and tumult accompanying the end of this world and the definitive separation of the good from the bad;
The triumph of the forces of good (God, Our Mother, the Saints)

This would be fine if Fatima was just Fatima, in other words, the apparitions that occurred in the Cova Da Iria from May to September 1917, the only part of Fatima that has been approved by the Church.

But Fatima has become Fatimism, and Fatimism was born of deception, starting with Sr Lucy lying to the Canonical Enquiry by not revealing the Secrets or their contents, and continuing with the fabrications of the Fatimists who have created a narrative that is full of holes.

Visionaries who lie, and supporters of that visionary who make things up, should be attended to with urgency, IMO.  Would Our Lady not agree with this, especially as the lies are being told in her name?

This is an actual and fair point which demands an answer - unlike Gerard's stuck record of "it's a threat because I say it is".

[Vetus Ordo]

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.

Aren't you tired of spamming the same thing over and over again?

[Irishcyclist]

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.

Aren't you tired of spamming the same thing over and over again?

Mikemac speaks the truth, ordo.

[awkwardcustomer]

You said that if the Sacred Heart made a threat against the Kingdom of France, you would reject it too - but I see no problem with God making threats against earthly kingdoms, precisely because the Church != earthly kingdom.

Rejecting an prophecy on the basis of a threat to an empire is not a valid reason to reject it. There may be other reasons to reject it, but this isn't one of them.

But there's no evidence that the Sacred Heart really did make a threat against the King of France.  We only have Sr Lucy's word for it.

Is this threat recorded anywhere in St Margaret Mary Alacoque's writings?  No.

I think it's highly likely that Sr Lucy made up this threat, inspired by the 'Holy Spirit' of course, the same 'Holy Spirit that inspired her to withold evidence from the Church, even while under oath.