What do you think of Medjugorje?

[BillMcEnaney]

I'm an open-minded doubter. Years ago, I attended a Mass where a seer(?) knelt silently for about an hour before the priest's translator said Our Lady wandered around the room to bless religious articles. Merely watching the visionary didn't tell me anything about whether Our Blessed Mother visited him there. But I'm much more doubtful about what many think happened to St. Faustina. If you read this article, you'll know something in her diary at least sounded heterodox.

https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f072_DivMercy.htm

[BillMcEnaney]

Maybe I should explain another reason I doubt the apparitions(?) I wrote about a post ago. At 17, I attended a charismatic Mass where I swooned when Fr. Edward McDunna, a faith healer, touched my shoulder. After floating to the floor, I sobbed nonstop for 20 minutes before a volunteer put me back into my wheelchair to let a priest take my pulse.

"Father," I said, "I'm glad you guided me down because otherwise, I would have cracked my head open on the cement floor." So he replied that no one was within 10 feet of me. "What? I saw hands on my shoulder blades." That's why I believe I hallucinated while I fell.

Only one good thing happened to me there in the North American Martyrs Shrine in Auriesville, New York: I stopped begging God to cure my cerebral palsy because I knew he could use it to help other people.

My Uncle Paul gave Mom an audio cassette where Fr. Vincent Micelli, S.J. interviewed Dr. Russell Hittinger. Dr. Hittinger described a Protestant miracle service where Kathryn Kuhlman invited an audience member to join hero onstage because she believed God cured the woman's back disorder.  The woman hurried up the stage's steps, threw off her back brace, and ran back and forth until she collapsed because her spine split. A few days later, she died. So if the interview, you might see whether Keep the Faith, Inc. still sells recordings of it.

Now I avoid charismatic events because I believe demons could fool charismatics by convincing them that the Holy Ghost caused them to feel positive emotions fallen angels made them feel.

[Jmartyr]

Maybe I should explain another reason I doubt the apparitions(?) I wrote about a post ago. At 17, I attended a charismatic Mass where I swooned when Fr. Edward McDunna, a faith healer, touched my shoulder. After floating to the floor, I sobbed nonstop for 20 minutes before a volunteer put me back into my wheelchair to let a priest take my pulse.

"Father," I said, "I'm glad you guided me down because otherwise, I would have cracked my head open on the cement floor." So he replied that no one was within 10 feet of me. "What? I saw hands on my shoulder blades." That's why I believe I hallucinated while I fell.

Only one good thing happened to me there in the North American Martyrs Shrine in Auriesville, New York: I stopped begging God to cure my cerebral palsy because I knew he could use it to help other people.

My Uncle Paul gave Mom an audio cassette where Fr. Vincent Micelli, S.J. interviewed Dr. Russell Hittinger. Dr. Hittinger described a Protestant miracle service where Kathryn Kuhlman invited an audience member to join hero onstage because she believed God cured the woman's back disorder.  The woman hurried up the stage's steps, threw off her back brace, and ran back and forth until she collapsed because her spine split. A few days later, she died. So if the interview, you might see whether Keep the Faith, Inc. still sells recordings of it.

Now I avoid charismatic events because I believe demons could fool charismatics by convincing them that the Holy Ghost caused them to feel positive emotions fallen angels made them feel.

These gushy emotions is what I felt when I went there. The devil is very cunning.

[Paul_D]

Believe or don't believe just as you wish. I showed conservative, orthodox Priests like Fr. Gabriele Amorth and Fr. Mark Goring who do believe in it. I didn't say it has officially received full approval yet; I said Catholics can believe in it, because many Bishops and Priests do, and the Pope has authorized pilgrimages there. That is 100% true.

"August, 2017: Papal envoy to Medjugorje, Archbishop Hoser, gave an interview in Poland, in which he said, among other things, the following:  He said "every indication" is that the apparitions will be approved, even as early as this year.

  "Specifically, I think it's possible to recognize the authenticity of the first [seven] apparitions as proposed by the Ruini commission," Hoser said. "Besides, it is difficult to get another verdict, because it's difficult to believe that six seers will lie for 36 years. What they say has been consistent. They are not mentally incompetent. A strong argument for the authenticity of the apparitions is their faithfulness to the doctrine of the Church ... In any event, this movement will not stop and should not be stopped, because of the good fruit that grows out of it," Hoser said. "It is one of the most alive places of prayer and conversion in Europe - and has a healthy spirituality."

From: https://www.tektonministries.org/timeline-of-churchs-response-to-medjugorje-2/

More non sequiturs. And all the testimony in the world cannot erase the contradictions of the Ruini report as well as its falsehoods, which I linked to, and which you have never refuted. And all you appeal to are opinions and fallible testimonies. The Bishop of Mostar still has the definitive judgment, and the Ruini report is too weak! And always appealing to the first apparitions isn't helping your case, as the subsequent apparitions have never been called supernatural! Again, I call you a blind Medjugorje fanatic!

[Xavier]

The non sequiturs are from you, Paul D. It's very clear that, even if the Pope himself says, "I declare beyond reasonable doubt that the apparitions are divine/supernatural", you'll keep on saying they're not. That's your own issue. If you don't know the Pope's Judgment is Superior to a Bishop, then there's nothing for me to say. Go back to what I quoted from Vatican I and read it. Archbishop Hoser is the Papally appointed envoy to the place, and he is in favor of them. The Ruini report did declare the first 7 apparitions supernatural, and is neutral on the rest.

Wiki: "A commission on Medjugorje established in 2010 by Pope Benedict XVI and chaired by Cardinal Camillo Ruini reportedly voted 13-1 to confirm the supernatural origin of the first seven occurrences of the apparition only.[19][20]"

Also, this was by majority vote. The opinions expressed by a minority on that commission are only the opinion of those who made them. But this was teh conclusion of the report as a whole, with a majority of 13-1, on the first 7 apparitions.

You keep focusing on meaningless things, like the supposed "money" the seers are after. Beside the many spiritual works of mercy Medjugorje has led to (like millions of Catholics fasting on Wednesday and Friday, because Our Lady asked to, decades ago, which are all meaningless to you, but not to Her), it has also led to vast physical works of mercy: "Medjugorje International Relief is a charity based in the UK, started in 1993 in response to the needs of refugees in Bosnia; it has sent millions of pounds worth of aid to 28 countries over the past 14 years. The site contains information on the origins of the charity and the convoys to Bosnia, a large range of downloadable bi-annual reports, how to get involved area. Special schools section with details of the shoebox appeal and backpack appeal and downloadable appeal letter showing how to get involved. Sections on different projects from around the world e.g. Slave redemption in the Sudan, Street Children in Mongolia, Shoeboxes to Zimbabwe and Liberia, Food to Refugees, donations of Blankets, clothes and medical supplies. Section on recycling and fundraising activites. A good links page to many Catholic/Christian sites including Media, Missionaries, Pro-life Charities, Medjugorje sites including the shrine website." https://www.medjugorje.ws/en/links/projects-charity-organizations-inspired-medjugorje/ Again, believe or don't believe just as you wish. The Truth will be apparent in time, but the fruits are good.

And as I already said, if you hold the NOM is a Black Mass or something, then you won't agree. But the same also applies to Akita etc.

[Paul_D]

The non sequiturs are from you, Paul D. It's very clear that, even if the Pope himself says, "I declare beyond reasonable doubt that the apparitions are divine/supernatural", you'll keep on saying they're not. That's your own issue. If you don't know the Pope's Judgment is Superior to a Bishop, then there's nothing for me to say. Go back to what I quoted from Vatican I and read it. Archbishop Hoser is the Papally appointed envoy to the place, and he is in favor of them. The Ruini report did declare the first 7 apparitions supernatural, and is neutral on the rest.

Wiki: "A commission on Medjugorje established in 2010 by Pope Benedict XVI and chaired by Cardinal Camillo Ruini reportedly voted 13-1 to confirm the supernatural origin of the first seven occurrences of the apparition only.[19][20]"

Also, this was by majority vote. The opinions expressed by a minority on that commission are only the opinion of those who made them. But this was teh conclusion of the report as a whole, with a majority of 13-1, on the first 7 apparitions.

You keep focusing on meaningless things, like the supposed "money" the seers are after. Beside the many spiritual works of mercy Medjugorje has led to (like millions of Catholics fasting on Wednesday and Friday, because Our Lady asked to, decades ago, which are all meaningless to you, but not to Her), it has also led to vast physical works of mercy: "Medjugorje International Relief is a charity based in the UK, started in 1993 in response to the needs of refugees in Bosnia; it has sent millions of pounds worth of aid to 28 countries over the past 14 years. The site contains information on the origins of the charity and the convoys to Bosnia, a large range of downloadable bi-annual reports, how to get involved area. Special schools section with details of the shoebox appeal and backpack appeal and downloadable appeal letter showing how to get involved. Sections on different projects from around the world e.g. Slave redemption in the Sudan, Street Children in Mongolia, Shoeboxes to Zimbabwe and Liberia, Food to Refugees, donations of Blankets, clothes and medical supplies. Section on recycling and fundraising activites. A good links page to many Catholic/Christian sites including Media, Missionaries, Pro-life Charities, Medjugorje sites including the shrine website." https://www.medjugorje.ws/en/links/projects-charity-organizations-inspired-medjugorje/ Again, believe or don't believe just as you wish. The Truth will be apparent in time, but the fruits are good.

And as I already said, if you hold the NOM is a Black Mass or something, then you won't agree. But the same also applies to Akita etc.

No, you're the one with nonsequiturs, red herrings etc., since you don't look at both sides of the issue. All I see that you're doing is what I used to do concerning Bayside until I took a good look at the messages and found their errors. If even Michael Davies, E. Michael Jones, etc., can't show you the contradictions, lies, etc. of the alleged Medjugorje "seers" nothing will. But stop pretending the Ruini report was impartial (which it wasn't and didn't ask hardball questions to the "seers"). And also stop lying that the Popes approved Medjugorje officially: this is the basic tactic of all devotees of false apparitions, misdirect and outright lie at times, even if they don't believe they're lying! And also even the Ruini report showed that the "seers" were too obsessed with money, despite your so-called evidence of good works. Here's an excerpt from the Ruini report, concerning this issue:

In fact, in a study drawn up by two members, dated 8 February 2013 and attached to the proceedings of the session of the following 22 February, we read:

?

?

CDF's protocol [...] requires us to take the "evident seeking of profit, closely connected to the event" as a negative element.
In the case of the "seers" of Medjugorje, it can certainly be said that this presents itself as the most critical aspect, which imparts a sense of profound unease.
[...]

It is impossible to deny [...] that the direct involvement of the "visionaries" in pilgrimage-excursion packages, in high-profile stays in the context of conventions with the attendant exhibition of ecstasies, in the building and ownership of infrastructure intended for hotel hospitality, is very disturbing. The exhibition of the charism appears to be set within an intrusive commercial organization, rather than a sober context of ecclesial life.

The relationship between the unfolding of the event and the seers' increase in personal household properties and the raising of their standard of living is well established. The gratitude and generosity of the pilgrims, of course, is possible and even likely. But this is precisely the issue: to what other personal or professional resources could the conspicuous achieved benefits of well-being be linked, if not to the usage of the event? In a relatively poor area, the overall level of the housing and goods at the seers' disposition would be considered upper-middle class even in a rich urban context. The overall picture of the tenor and lifestyle of some members of the group, then, offers an image that is not congruent with the responsibility of guarding and administering such an exceptional charisma as this one, which has been presented as enduring. [...]

Perhaps we do not have all the certainty one could desire regarding an evident seeking of profit closely connected with the event. However, the event is conspicuously connected with elements of profit. The uncertainty on this specific point absolutely must be resolved.
[Appendix II - 22 February 2013 Proceedings - International Commission of Inquiry on Medjugorje, in David Murgia, Processo a Medjugorje, Rubbettino, 2021, pp. 178-179]
________________

One big question, Xavier: why doesn't Mirjana show this magic parchment of hers with all the secrets? She showed it to her relatives. Why not give it to the Vatican? Or why doesn't the Vatican order her to show it? Or is there a good reason they "prefer not to go too much into the question"?

[Goldfinch]

Medjugorje is theologically unsound. That's enough evidence, everything else is secondary to it.

Only spiritual blindness prevents one from seeing it for what it is: a diabolical sham.

[Xavier]

As I showed earlier, the claim that the messages promote indifferentism or reject conversion to Catholicism is not true. I posted two sample messages, quite recent, as examples. Both speak of Salvation in Christ or Conversion to the Immaculata.

Agree or disagree with the messages itself; but this does not contradict the Faith or sound theology in any way, that is clear.

These two Messages, very recent, and directly from Our Lady Herself, and not from one of the seers, clearly rejects Indifferentism and teaches Conversion to the Immaculate Heart/Catholic Faith.

Therefore, my apostles, always love one another and above all, love my Son. This is the only way to salvation, to eternal life. This is my dearest prayer which fills my heart with the most beautiful scent of roses. Pray, always pray for your shepherds that they may have the strength to be the light of my Son. Thank you."

Source: https://mysticpost.com/2021/01/medjugorje-today-january-14-2021-this-is-the-only-way-to-salvation-to-eternal-life-this-is-my-dearest-prayer-intimately-our-lady-reveals-the-secret-path-to-eternity/

Hence, Our Lady teaches that those who do not love one another and above all Her Son, Jesus Christ, cannot be saved.

2) And the other quote I gave earlier: "Little children, you be generous and be the love of my love, so that pagans can feel that you are mine and convert to my Immaculate Heart. Thank you for having responded to my call." Taken from: https://www.medjugorje.cc/messages/ (Message for July 25, 2021). That is not indifferentism but encourages conversion

Paul, I haven't looked into the money thing much, I admit. I'll look into that and get back later.

[Goldfinch]

As I showed earlier, the claim that the messages promote indifferentism or reject conversion to Catholicism is not true. I posted two sample messages, quite recent, as examples. Both speak of Salvation in Christ or Conversion to the Immaculata.

Agree or disagree with the messages itself; but this does not contradict the Faith or sound theology in any way, that is clear.

Our Lady does not mix truth with falsehood, nor does She inspire seers to lead worldly lives.

The Medjugorje seers have delivered heretical messages for years. This has been pointed out several times in this thread. "God presides over all religions as a king controls his subjects, through his priests and ministers (...) The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well (...) The Madonna said that religions are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by Her Son." - Seer Ivanka Ivankovic, The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje, Franciscan Herald Press, 1984.

[Paul_D]

As I showed earlier, the claim that the messages promote indifferentism or reject conversion to Catholicism is not true. I posted two sample messages, quite recent, as examples. Both speak of Salvation in Christ or Conversion to the Immaculata.

Agree or disagree with the messages itself; but this does not contradict the Faith or sound theology in any way, that is clear.

These two Messages, very recent, and directly from Our Lady Herself, and not from one of the seers, clearly rejects Indifferentism and teaches Conversion to the Immaculate Heart/Catholic Faith.

Therefore, my apostles, always love one another and above all, love my Son. This is the only way to salvation, to eternal life. This is my dearest prayer which fills my heart with the most beautiful scent of roses. Pray, always pray for your shepherds that they may have the strength to be the light of my Son. Thank you."

Source: https://mysticpost.com/2021/01/medjugorje-today-january-14-2021-this-is-the-only-way-to-salvation-to-eternal-life-this-is-my-dearest-prayer-intimately-our-lady-reveals-the-secret-path-to-eternity/

Hence, Our Lady teaches that those who do not love one another and above all Her Son, Jesus Christ, cannot be saved.

2) And the other quote I gave earlier: "Little children, you be generous and be the love of my love, so that pagans can feel that you are mine and convert to my Immaculate Heart. Thank you for having responded to my call." Taken from: https://www.medjugorje.cc/messages/ (Message for July 25, 2021). That is not indifferentism but encourages conversion

Paul, I haven't looked into the money thing much, I admit. I'll look into that and get back later.

What about this? Are you going to tell me this is correct or that they are quoting the sources wrongly? It doesn't matter how much truth there is, if there is a few lies in the beginning, like this article shows.

https://catholiclight.stblogs.org/index.php/2010/03/the-deviations-of-medjugorje/

[Paul_D]

Here's the book I've referenced: The Apparitions at Medjugorje. https://archive.org/details/apparitionsofour00kral/page/94/mode/2up

Check p. 95! It essentially says there is no difference between a Catholic and a Protestant, although the apparitions are under the auspices of the Catholic Church.

From a source that believes in the apparitions!

It also quotes Mirjana in an interview on page 124 that the various peoples have enforced unnatural separation for the various religions, and that other religions must be respected, especially the Muslims! And that one cannot be a true Christian if he makes fun of other religions! Using this logic, the saints aren't saints for their devastating attacks on Protestantism, Islam, etc.

[Instaurare omnia]

Paul, I haven't looked into the money thing much, I admit. I'll look into that and get back later.

Follow the money trail, always.

[Justin Martyr]

Paul, I haven't looked into the money thing much, I admit. I'll look into that and get back later.

Follow the money trail, always.

[BillMcEnaney]

These gushy emotions is what I felt when I went there. The devil is very cunning.

Now you know why the approved Marian apparitions are the only ones I believe in. Emotion explains why I think the Charismatic movement is dangerous. If I thought someone appeared to me, I'd see the nearest psychiatrist. Years ago, when I attended a Protestant service in Lennox, Massachusetts, I panicked because I heard only one phrase the minister used when he preached. i.e, "casting off restraints."

During another Protestant service, a woman laughed hysterically while she rolled on the floor. The pastor made light of it, telling everyone that "holy laughter" was common at his services. At the Kathryn Kuhlmann service I described in another post, no medical expert examined the audience member before her spine split.

At the church where I grew up, the permanent deacon's wife swooned each time he prayed over her. There's nothing supernatural about that reaction, is there?

[Justin Martyr]

These gushy emotions is what I felt when I went there. The devil is very cunning.

Now you know why the approved Marian apparitions are the only ones I believe in. Emotion explains why I think the Charismatic movement is dangerous. If I thought someone appeared to me, I'd see the nearest psychiatrist. Years ago, when I attended a Protestant service in Lennox, Massachusetts, I panicked because I heard only one phrase the minister used when he preached. i.e, "casting off restraints."

During another Protestant service, a woman laughed hysterically while she rolled on the floor. The pastor made light of it, telling everyone that "holy laughter" was common at his services. At the Kathryn Kuhlmann service I described in another post, no medical expert examined the audience member before her spine split.

At the church where I grew up, the permanent deacon's wife swooned each time he prayed over her. There's nothing supernatural about that reaction, is there?

To be fair, there were many times from when I was a Calvinist who had a basic knowledge of Church History and exegesis that I wanted to burst out laughing at something a Baptist "pastor" said...though I suspect my motives were different from the woman you mentioned