Justification by God's Righteousness

[james03]

Like I said, a serious question.  You are now acting very emotional. 

[GracePeace]

Like I said, a serious question.  You are now acting very emotional. 

Let me know when you're ready to have a discussion.

[GracePeace]

Like I said, a serious question.  You are now acting very emotional. 

LOL Is this the pot calling the kettle "black"? Your ignorance has been debunked over and over, now you are not happy, so you're picking your boogers and flicking them at me. Grow up. You've been emotional (angry) from you very first "response".

[james03]

Sounds good.  Summarize what you mean by conundrum.  As a suggestion, leave out quoting scripture, and just list the two horns of the dilemma.  There's a hidden premise you are working off of.

[GracePeace]

Sounds good.  Summarize what you mean by conundrum.  As a suggestion, leave out quoting scripture, and just list the two horns of the dilemma.  There's a hidden premise you are working off of.

I already made it clear in the OP. Why are you responding to it without having read it?

Proverbs 18
13If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

If it is the case that we are justified, such that we find peace (Ro 5:1), by "obeying" the Law of faith (such that "faith is counted as righteousness"--obeying a Law would count as righteousness) (Ro 1:5, 3:27)--and this is specifically "not of works", so that it may qualify as a gift, and the addition of "works" would render it a "payment", nullifying the agreement that it be of grace--how can it ALSO be that we will only be justified if we are doers of good (Ro 2:6-16, 14:23) (ie, our ongoing and ultimate justification rests on doing good)? Wouldn't that nullify the idea of justification as a gift and disturb one's peace?

The resolution is also in the OP.

[james03]

Wouldn't that nullify the idea of justification as a gift and disturb one's peace?

I tried to address this in my first reply.  I don't claim to be the best writer, so I'll try again.

To say that Faith, PER SE, justifies us is absurd.  According to Justice, Faith, PER SE, can not equal the offense against an infinite Creator that our sins cause.  Trent tells us the meritous cause:

the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;

So we are justified by the propitiation of the Sacrifice on Calvary.  But for whom is this applied?  Jesus, who has purchased this debt, can determine that.  And His terms are Faith and obedience.

So ULTIMATELY justification is a free gift.  Nothing was done to merit Jesus living among us and shedding every drop of His Most Precious Blood for love of us.  However by His decree we merit Justification by Faith through Charity.  And His decree does not come from Justice, but is a gift from Love and Mercy.

In short, to say that Faith justifies in a legalistic sense of paying debt or putting God into debt is absurd.  However under the regime of Grace and Mercy, which are the First Cause, it does merit justification.

[GracePeace]

In short, to say that Faith justifies... under the regime of Grace and Mercy, which are the First Cause, it does merit justification.

OK, so, you have attained to agreeing with me that faith justifies. Great.

Anyway, you don't seem interested in the discussion. You're not obligated to discuss.

[james03]

so that it may qualify as a gift, and the addition of "works" would render it a "payment", nullifying the agreement that it be of grace--how can it ALSO be that we will only be justified if we are doers of good

I have shown that this is not a dilemma.  Faith is indeed a "payment" under the New Covenant.  The New Covenant was put in place without any merit.

[GracePeace]

so that it may qualify as a gift, and the addition of "works" would render it a "payment", nullifying the agreement that it be of grace--how can it ALSO be that we will only be justified if we are doers of good

I have shown that this is not a dilemma.  Faith is indeed a "payment" under the New Covenant.  The New Covenant was put in place without any merit.

Proverbs 18
13If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

Even until now, you haven't read the OP.

[Gullskjegg]

Like I said, a serious question.  You are now acting very emotional. 

Let me know when you're ready to have a discussion.

You've been very hostile to people trying to help you with your question, or to better understand your disposition so that they may better answer it. Asking for help regarding a wall of text and then insulting those you ask won't do much good.  Maybe take it step by step. 

To answer a part of it perhaps:

Many people accept "Faith" as a synonym for "Acknowledgement" or "Belief".  They "acknowledge or believe" Jesus Christ and therefore are saved.  Faith in Jesus Christ means truly knowing and deeply believing in his teachings and following them.  "Not by works" means you can't labor yourself into heaven in the materialistic sense, nor can you enter into heaven as an atheist because you did great work, even "Christian" work, charity, etc.

Jesus asks a lot of us, it would be wise for us to listen to Him and follow Him, to have genuine faith in Him.  Not simply, "acknowledge his existence".  Even simply believing He is the Son of God doesn't necessarily mean you believe IN Him.  It goes deeper than knowing what He is, we must truly know WHO He is.

St James 1:2-3,22-25
'My brethren, count it all joy, when you shall fall into divers temptations; Knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was. But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed. '

St James 2:13-14,17-26
'For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.'

[GracePeace]

Like I said, a serious question.  You are now acting very emotional. 

Let me know when you're ready to have a discussion.

You've been very hostile to people trying to help you with your question

You cannot have read the OP and said this, because I didn't say I had a question.

Proverbs 18
13If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

[james03]

Even until now, you haven't read the OP.

I replied to your recent post.  There is no conundrum. 

[Gullskjegg]

Like I said, a serious question.  You are now acting very emotional. 

Let me know when you're ready to have a discussion.

You've been very hostile to people trying to help you with your question

You cannot have read the OP and said this, because I didn't say I had a question.

Proverbs 18
13If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

So you came here just to argue and insult people that understand something you don't?

[james03]

I'm starting to suspect a failed concern troll attempt.

[ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez]

Try the article on sanctifying grace:

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

I've done enough reading of these materials for now.

I think a better understanding of grace will probably the answer that eventually makes sense, if not right away.

As stated, I've basically arrived at an understanding that is satisfactory (in terms of reconciling the two seemingly irreconcilable ideas), and I wanted to share it to possibly edify others and add to arguments against the Protestant madness.

You've taken a fully protestant approach (sola scriptura and leaning on your own understanding) to answer a protestant question about a topic that would not be even remotely controversial if not for the protestants.  This is not edifying.

James' quote from the Council of Trent is the best post in this thread.