VII reforms destroy the priesthood with an invalid rite of consecrating bishops

[LausTibiChriste]

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders ....

If there are only 10 validly ordained Bishops left in the Western Church and the Eastern Catholic Bishops somehow step in to save the day once the last Western Bishop has died, would that put a new slant on the prediction that "salvation will come from the East"?

I have said it before on here, but I am personally convinced that the Eastern Rites will play a pivotal role in the revival of the Church.


They have (for the most part) kept their sacraments intact and made no changes after V2. Usually (though not always) priests and Bishops in the East will be consecrated by priests and bishops from the East.

I think God is keeping them "hidden" for a good reason (not that God has any bad reasons for doing things lol)

Unfortunately, the Eastern Rite's Code of Canon Law of 1990 does include some Vatican II type theology and I don't recall the Eastern bishops ever denouncing Vatican II.

Regardless, their sacramental form has never changed (except the Maronites)

[Greg]

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders ....

If there are only 10 validly ordained Bishops left in the Western Church and the Eastern Catholic Bishops somehow step in to save the day once the last Western Bishop has died, would that put a new slant on the prediction that "salvation will come from the East"?

I have said it before on here, but I am personally convinced that the Eastern Rites will play a pivotal role in the revival of the Church.


They have (for the most part) kept their sacraments intact and made no changes after V2. Usually (though not always) priests and Bishops in the East will be consecrated by priests and bishops from the East.

I think God is keeping them "hidden" for a good reason (not that God has any bad reasons for doing things lol)

Salvation will come from the east.

[clau clau]

Salvation will come from the east.

That was exactly what I was thinking. The Malachi Martin quote (see: 2:47)

[Baylee]

Regarding salvation from the East, has any of the Eastern bishops/clergy publicly denounced Vatican II or Bergoglio?  Because so far, the only ones I see doing such are from the West.

[awkward customer]

Regarding salvation from the East, has any of the Eastern bishops/clergy publicly denounced Vatican II or Bergoglio?  Because so far, the only ones I see doing such are from the West.

I suppose the point is that they are at least validly consecrated and have Ordinary Jurisdiction.  If the NO rite for consecrating bishops is invalid then there are only 10 such Bishops left in the West.  And we don't know if they have denounced Vatican II or Bergoglio either.  Bishop Vigano, for example, was consecrated by JPII in 1992.

It also makes a change from the usual concerns about the NO Mass and its validity, intention, liturgy, Missal etc.  Many of the priests celebrating the NO Mass might not be validly ordained, or even most of them.  Vatican II has turned priests into presiders not just in name and according to liturgical function but in actual reality.  No bishops, no priests.     

[AlNg]

Many of the priests celebrating the NO Mass might not be validly ordained, or even most of them.  Vatican II has turned priests into presiders not just in name and according to liturgical function but in actual reality.  No bishops, no priests.   

AFAIK, the Eastern Orthodox priests and bishops are validly ordained and they have valid Sacraments. What advantage is there for an Eastern Orthodox Christian to convert to Catholicism where there is a serious doubt about the validity of many of the Catholic Sacraments? And there is discussion about recent Catholic Popes being fake Popes and the Catholic Church being a counterfeit Church.

[Bonaventure]

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders ....

If there are only 10 validly ordained Bishops left in the Western Church and the Eastern Catholic Bishops somehow step in to save the day once the last Western Bishop has died, would that put a new slant on the prediction that "salvation will come from the East"?

The number of 10 is not just the Western/Roman bishops, but also includes the Eastern rites.

As I previously posted, the most senior eastern rite bishops are from the early 1970s.

If there has been a sede vacante since 1958/1963, these men would only have ordinary jurisdiction via the "common error" thesis.

I don't know of any serious study that has seriously considered this theory.

I have heard Fr. Cekada himself mock the "salvation comes from the East" theory as the "bishop in the woods" theory.

He also ceased praying the Leonine prayers for the conversion of Russia after low Masses, arguing and publicly advocating that Russia had "converted."

[Bonaventure]

Salvation will come from the east.

That was exactly what I was thinking. The Malachi Martin quote (see: 2:47)

I thought it might be of particular interest to the OP that Fr. Cekada described Fr. Malachi Martin as an "apostate priest."

As his former colleague Rama Coomaraswamy said:

I cannot resist one final comment. It is clear that Fr. Cekada, despite his vaunted seminary training, never understood the sin of calumny. In his article he refers to Malachi Martin (again, not by name) as an "Apostate priest."

http://www.the-pope.com/validity.html

Bishop Daniel Dolan (Cekada's best friend and the man he is buried next to) said that Martin had a "shocking cruelty," was "wicked," and that he seduced a woman. Dolan also tells a story saying that Martin had seduced four women.

See:

https://youtu.be/E9ZgVHCbnA8?si=9tP_3JDEKjsf2mN6

The TRR outfit devoted a lengthy podcast episode on Martin, with Dolan.

https://truerestoration.org/season-2-flagship-show-episode-29-malachi-martin/

[LausTibiChriste]

Bonaventure why does the age of the Eastern bishops matter?

[Bonaventure]

Bonaventure why does the age of the Eastern bishops matter?

Per Sedevacantism, Pius XII was the last pope. A small minority would say John XXIII was pope whilst holding their noise.

Paul VI, being the promulgator of the Novus Ordo, Dignitatis Humanae, Lumen Gentium, etc. was clearly an antipope. As are all his successors.

The age matters because a false pope cannot give ordinary jurisdiction. Only a true pope can.

A heretic occupying the Apostolic see or any see cannot give jurisdiction except if it is "common error."

When would the conciliar popes cease having the ability to give ordinary jurisdiction? 1965? 1995?

Who knows.

Since many sedes say that the 1968 rite and the "Governing Spirit" is "invalid," this only leaves the East.

Fr. Cekada and Bp. Dolan rejected this and claimed that the autocephalus clergy and bishops were the "shepherds and pastors" according to Vatican I.

They publicly mocked the theory that there had to be a bishop on earth with ordinary jurisdiction (promoted by sedes such as John Lane) as the "bishop in the woods theory."

[Michael Wilson]

Bonaventure:

If there has been a sede vacante since 1958/1963, these men would only have ordinary jurisdiction via the "common error" thesis.

I don't know of any serious study that has seriously considered this theory.

Yes, there is a doctoral thesis in canon law from the 1930's which delves into the question of canon 206 (1917) on supplied jurisdiction.
You can read the whole thing here, but the gist of it is below.
SIGISMUND MIASKIEWICZ, J.C.L. Priest of the Archdiocese of Boston: http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/books/Miaskiewicz--Canon%20209.pdf
page 26:

As  a  matter  of  fact,  there  are  no  formalities  of  Church  law  which could not be supplied. Thus, for example, if a Pope were invalidly elected,  once  he  were  regarded  by  the  world  as  Pope  all  of  his  jurisdictional acts would be valid.

Notice that this study is way before Vatican II, so it isn't something made up just to fit the situation.

I have heard Fr. Cekada himself mock the "salvation comes from the East" theory as the "bishop in the woods" theory.

It may be true or not, but Fr. C. Certainly does necessarily have the last word on this.

He also ceased praying the Leonine prayers for the conversion of Russia after low Masses, arguing and publicly advocating that Russia had "converted."

Yes, and he was flat out wrong on this.

[awkward customer]

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders ....

If there are only 10 validly ordained Bishops left in the Western Church and the Eastern Catholic Bishops somehow step in to save the day once the last Western Bishop has died, would that put a new slant on the prediction that "salvation will come from the East"?

The number of 10 is not just the Western/Roman bishops, but also includes the Eastern rites.

As I previously posted, the most senior eastern rite bishops are from the early 1970s.

If there has been a sede vacante since 1958/1963, these men would only have ordinary jurisdiction via the "common error" thesis.

I don't know of any serious study that has seriously considered this theory.

I have heard Fr. Cekada himself mock the "salvation comes from the East" theory as the "bishop in the woods" theory.

He also ceased praying the Leonine prayers for the conversion of Russia after low Masses, arguing and publicly advocating that Russia had "converted."

Oh dear, I misunderstood.  I clicked on the link you provided but didn't make the connection.

So it looks like salvation won't be coming from the East after all.  I was hoping for a solution to the problem that doesn't involve the end of the world.   

[Bonaventure]

Bonaventure:

If there has been a sede vacante since 1958/1963, these men would only have ordinary jurisdiction via the "common error" thesis.

I don't know of any serious study that has seriously considered this theory.

Yes, there is a doctoral thesis in canon law from the 1930's which delves into the question of canon 206 (1917) on supplied jurisdiction.
You can read the whole thing here, but the gist of it is below.
SIGISMUND MIASKIEWICZ, J.C.L. Priest of the Archdiocese of Boston: http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/books/Miaskiewicz--Canon%20209.pdf
page 26:

As  a  matter  of  fact,  there  are  no  formalities  of  Church  law  which could not be supplied. Thus, for example, if a Pope were invalidly elected,  once  he  were  regarded  by  the  world  as  Pope  all  of  his  jurisdictional acts would be valid.

Notice that this study is way before Vatican II, so it isn't something made up just to fit the situation.

I have heard Fr. Cekada himself mock the "salvation comes from the East" theory as the "bishop in the woods" theory.

It may be true or not, but Fr. C. Certainly does necessarily have the last word on this.

He also ceased praying the Leonine prayers for the conversion of Russia after low Masses, arguing and publicly advocating that Russia had "converted."

Yes, and he was flat out wrong on this.

Thank you.

I am familiar with MIASKIEWICZ.

[Baylee]

Oh dear, I misunderstood.  I clicked on the link you provided but didn't make the connection.

So it looks like salvation won't be coming from the East after all.  I was hoping for a solution to the problem that doesn't involve the end of the world.   

I am of the opinion that we are most certainly in the End Times.

[Miriam_M]

Oh dear, I misunderstood.  I clicked on the link you provided but didn't make the connection.

So it looks like salvation won't be coming from the East after all.  I was hoping for a solution to the problem that doesn't involve the end of the world. 

I am of the opinion that we are most certainly in the End Times.

All priests whom I know share that view as well, while some of those have a "longer" view of the span, some a shorter view.