What hope have we got?

Started by pioflower, March 14, 2018, 05:43:49 PM

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christulsa

#15
The movie with the kid riding a flying dog through a fantasy world?   ::)  Kinda reminds me of the Robin Williams (RIP) movie "What Dreams May Come."   ;)

TandJ

Quote from: Gardener on March 14, 2018, 09:02:06 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on March 14, 2018, 08:40:38 PM
Is this from a st alphpnsus sermon

as for hope.... not much.  after reading about the fewness of the saved I have pretty much given up on the idea of going to heaven and my family going there... maybe some of you lot will make it

Never give up hope. Recognize that certain concepts are meant to spur certain personality types. For others, those concepts are poison -- such as melancholics and the sermons/readings such as you mention. You will only go to hell if you bring it upon yourself. 

I think Gardener is absolutely correct. I recognize myself in a lot of Chestertonians posts and i definitely think he is a melancholic like myself. I, too, incline to scrupulosity and despair that can really affect my ability to be a good wife and mother. I wish for death ALL the time because of it. I hope that God accepts these sufferings as reparations for my many sins. Some of these "fire and brimstone" sermons can really upset me for weeks. So please be patient with Chestertonian because many cannot even fathom the interior pain he is in

St. Columba

#17
Quote from: TandJ on March 16, 2018, 10:13:40 AM
Quote from: Gardener on March 14, 2018, 09:02:06 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on March 14, 2018, 08:40:38 PM
Is this from a st alphpnsus sermon

as for hope.... not much.  after reading about the fewness of the saved I have pretty much given up on the idea of going to heaven and my family going there... maybe some of you lot will make it

Never give up hope. Recognize that certain concepts are meant to spur certain personality types. For others, those concepts are poison -- such as melancholics and the sermons/readings such as you mention. You will only go to hell if you bring it upon yourself. 

I think Gardener is absolutely correct. I recognize myself in a lot of Chestertonians posts and i definitely think he is a melancholic like myself. I, too, incline to scrupulosity and despair that can really affect my ability to be a good wife and mother. I wish for death ALL the time because of it. I hope that God accepts these sufferings as reparations for my many sins. Some of these "fire and brimstone" sermons can really upset me for weeks. So please be patient with Chestertonian because many cannot even fathom the interior pain he is in

Hi TandJ.  Your simple, humble, and charitable post once again gives compelling evidence that scrupulosity is not, at bottom, about pride, but far more to do with your particular temperament and psychological profile.  Like most truly scrupulous people, you seem to have an extraordinarily kind heart.  God love you!

People don't have ideas...ideas have people.  - Jordan Peterson quoting Carl Jung

Mono no aware

#18
Quote from: Gardener on March 14, 2018, 09:02:06 PMRecognize that certain concepts are meant to spur certain personality types. For others, those concepts are poison -- such as melancholics and the sermons/readings such as you mention.

Just out of curiosity, if "certain concepts are meant to spur certain personality types," then why did saints and doctors illustrate those concepts in sermons that would doubtless fall on the ears of an assembly consisting of all personality types?  They would appear to have not cared that their words would've driven a fourth of their audience to despair.  If certain concepts were so problematic, wouldn't the Church have had a kind of "second imprimatur," where it would be stated for which personality types the writing is beneficial, and those for which it would be poisonous?

I only ask because it seems like the "this wasn't meant for certain personality types" is a retrofitting.  Of the sermons I'm familiar with on the fewness of the saved, there's never a part where they ask the melancholics to leave for the sake of their sanity.  The message is said to be for everyone.  In St. Leonard of Port Maurice's famous sermon, he even admits, "the subject I will be treating today is a very grave one; it has caused even the pillars of the Church to tremble, filled the greatest saints with terror, and populated the deserts with anchorites."  But rather than caution people against listening, he says, "it will, I hope, produce in you a salutary fear of the judgments of God."  St. John Chrysostom said, "what I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you."



Miriam_M

Sorry, Columba, but it's a lot more complex than that.  It's not as if the person who is essentially being "tormented" or obsessed by a sense of unworthiness is deliberately holding onto pride (is any more prideful than the rest of us).  It's more that the Devil can get a foothold in our dejected states of mind and convince us that it's all about us and not about God.  Fr. Chad Ripperger's sermons on spiritual warfare are quite illuminating in that respect and do confirm what Traditional Catholic spirituality tells us about the power of the Devil's deception.

We need to remind ourselves that a psychological profile does not restrict a person from accepting God's mercy.  God wills for us to be free from our misery, from our separation from Him, and by the way, as Fr. Ripperger reminds us, charity toward ourselves is a divine command. 

TandJ

#20
Quote from: Pon de Replay on March 16, 2018, 11:23:20 AM
Quote from: Gardener on March 14, 2018, 09:02:06 PMRecognize that certain concepts are meant to spur certain personality types. For others, those concepts are poison -- such as melancholics and the sermons/readings such as you mention.

Just out of curiosity, if "certain concepts are meant to spur certain personality types," then why did saints and doctors illustrate those concepts in sermons that would doubtless fall on the ears of an assembly consisting of all personality types?  They would appear to have not cared that their words would've driven a fourth of their audience to despair.  If certain concepts were so problematic, wouldn't the Church have had a kind of "second imprimatur," where it would be stated for which personality types the writing is beneficial, and those for which it would be poisonous?

I only ask because it seems like the "this wasn't meant for certain personality types" is a retrofitting.  Of the sermons I'm familiar with on the fewness of the saved, there's never a part where they ask melancholics to leave for the sake of their sanity.  The message is said to be for everyone.  In St. Leonard of Port Maurice's famous sermon, he even admits, "the subject I will be treating today is a very grave one; it has caused even the pillars of the Church to tremble, filled the greatest Saints with terror, and populated the deserts with anchorites."  But rather than caution people against listening, he says, "it will, I hope, produce in you a salutary fear of the judgments of God."  St. John Chrysostom said, "what I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you."

Actually St. Leonard does...

Mono no aware

#21
Quote from: TandJ on March 16, 2018, 12:19:59 PMActually St. Leonard does...

He says, "pious souls, you may leave."  This can't refer to a personality type, though, unless the idea is that melancholic people are necessarily pious.



St. Columba

Quote from: Miriam_M on March 16, 2018, 11:25:03 AM
Sorry, Columba, but it's a lot more complex than that.  It's not as if the person who is essentially being "tormented" or obsessed by a sense of unworthiness is deliberately holding onto pride (is any more prideful than the rest of us).  It's more that the Devil can get a foothold in our dejected states of mind and convince us that it's all about us and not about God.  Fr. Chad Ripperger's sermons on spiritual warfare are quite illuminating in that respect and do confirm what Traditional Catholic spirituality tells us about the power of the Devil's deception.

We need to remind ourselves that a psychological profile does not restrict a person from accepting God's mercy.  God wills for us to be free from our misery, from our separation from Him, and by the way, as Fr. Ripperger reminds us, charity toward ourselves is a divine command.

Thanks Miriam, yes, I totally agree that it is more complex than that.

Can I impose on your generosity: Can you expand on that last point, namely, that charity towards ourselves is a divine command?  I am interested.  Thanks.   :)
People don't have ideas...ideas have people.  - Jordan Peterson quoting Carl Jung

Matto

#23
For some reason the sermons about the fewness of the saved I have heard did not lead me to thoughts of despair. However similar sermons about "the number of sins beyond which God will pardon no more" which were brought up in a similar thread have caused such thoughts of despair. For some reason things like a saint saying only one in ten thousand souls above the age of reason will be saved didn't cause me to despair, but saying for many sinners who commit a lot of sins, God abandons them and does not give them a chance to repent and be saved, caused me to have thoughts of despair because I thought maybe I was one of those and because of my sins, God has abandoned me and I was already damned.
I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

Maximilian

Quote from: Pon de Replay on March 16, 2018, 11:23:20 AM

I only ask because it seems like the "this wasn't meant for certain personality types" is a retrofitting.  Of the sermons I'm familiar with on the fewness of the saved, there's never a part where they ask the melancholics to leave for the sake of their sanity.  The message is said to be for everyone.

Yes, another person who didn't adjust his message to the audience was Jesus. Nearly every time he spoke he offended his audience.

Quote from: Pon de Replay on March 16, 2018, 11:23:20 AM

But rather than caution people against listening, he says, "it will, I hope, produce in you a salutary fear of the judgments of God." 

Meditating on Judgment. That is my current focus. Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell. Taking them one at a time.

No matter what personality type we may be, we still need to meditate on these 4 Last Things.

pioflower

So do you think many children are in hell?

Gardener

Quote from: Maximilian on March 16, 2018, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: Pon de Replay on March 16, 2018, 11:23:20 AM

I only ask because it seems like the "this wasn't meant for certain personality types" is a retrofitting.  Of the sermons I'm familiar with on the fewness of the saved, there's never a part where they ask the melancholics to leave for the sake of their sanity.  The message is said to be for everyone.

Yes, another person who didn't adjust his message to the audience was Jesus. Nearly every time he spoke he offended his audience.

Quote from: Pon de Replay on March 16, 2018, 11:23:20 AM

But rather than caution people against listening, he says, "it will, I hope, produce in you a salutary fear of the judgments of God." 

Meditating on Judgment. That is my current focus. Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell. Taking them one at a time.

No matter what personality type we may be, we still need to meditate on these 4 Last Things.

Actually, Christ adjusted His message delivery and source of argumentation all the time. He never quotes the Tanakh to the Sadducees, for example. Only Torah. Why? Because they didn't believe in the canonicity of the Tanakh and it would be fruitless.

He never quoted any of the so-called deuteron-Canonical books to the Pharisees, because they only believed in the OT as the Protestants and modern Jews have it. He quoted both Torah and Tanakh to them.

He never seemed to get into it with the Essenes, who held the entire OT as we know it. He even commanded the Last Supper be situated in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem.

So your idea of Jesus willingly offended people is just false. He told the truth, but He did so in a way which was sensible for them. Telling the truth is not the same as smacking someone across the face with it. Tact is important.

Hope, which is the issue here, from BC:

Q. 466. What is Hope?

A. Hope is a Divine virtue by which we firmly trust that God will give us eternal life and the means to obtain it. (emphasis added)

If few are saved, then it is exactly because they didn't do something (respond to grace) or did something in the negative (agreed to mortal sin) -- split the hairs on those how you want. But the problem is when sermons make it seem as if God is out to get someone for any little slip up. Something in direct contradiction not only to the Sacred Heart, but Scripture itself. Over and over in Scripture God pleads with the Israelites to not fall away from Him, and later, God pleads to the New Covenant Church to adhere to Him in the same. Why... because He's out to "get" them? Hardly. Just the opposite. People suck.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Maximilian

Quote from: Gardener on March 16, 2018, 04:02:42 PM

So your idea of Jesus willingly offended people is just false. He told the truth, but He did so in a way which was sensible for them. Telling the truth is not the same as smacking someone across the face with it. Tact is important.

Perhaps your version will be believed by someone who has never read the Bible. But those who have read the Bible, or even listen to it on Sundays, know that Jesus called his listeners "whited sepulchres, caves of dead man's bones, nest of vipers, hypocrites" and many other derogatory epithets. Several times the crowds listening to him tried to kill him, before the final occasion when they actually did so.

He talked about Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell repeatedly, virtually every time he spoke. His listeners had the same human nature that we have, and so they had similar difficulties accepting what he had to say.

Quote from: Gardener on March 16, 2018, 04:02:42 PM

Hope, which is the issue here, from BC:

Q. 466. What is Hope?

A. Hope is a Divine virtue by which we firmly trust that God will give us eternal life and the means to obtain it. (emphasis added)

The real issue in the O.P. is not the supernatural virtue of Hope, but rather the question pertains to sin and judgment. Yes, I agree with you that it would be better to focus on Hope. Unfortunately, so many people cannot take their eyes off the specter of sin.

Meditating on Judgment, however, can lead us to true hope. Closing our eyes to reality, in contrast, cannot help us to develop true virtue. The reality is that we will die, and soon after we die we will stand before the seat of judgment. Who can stand in that day of wrath? Once we have a deep understanding of this reality, then our souls can get to work to develop the virtue of Hope.

Bonaventure

A lot of people here are dangerously scrupulous, need counseling, or perhaps both.

I have hope in the Blood of Christ, which He poured out for me despite knowing of my wretchedness and that I would choose to fail Him many times.

So I don't worry about it like I used to. I worry about doing the best at my job, as a man, and as a husband. That's my means of sanctification, as they say, so if I just do that that's the best I got.

To echo a Greg sentiment, if the Leonard of Port Maurice types are right and there are only 300 or 3000 souls there, salvation was never really an option for me anyway and I was created by a a Being that pretty much set me up for a raw deal.

As the son of an alcoholic who destroyed his family through lack of control and even lapsed into Protestantism, despite being a generation removed from a Cristero hero, I trust in the Infinite Mercy. The Ocean of Mercy. The last ditch Hail Mary touchdown that wins the game. If this not be enough, it won't matter anyway.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

TandJ

#29
Even St. Leonard says in his sermon on the fewness...

"Therefore, I will divide this subject into two points. In the first one, to fill you with dread, I will let the theologians and Fathers of the Church decide on the matter and declare that the greater number of Christian adults are damned; and, in silent adoration of that terrible mystery, I will keep my own sentiments to myself. In the second point I will attempt to defend the goodness of God versus the godless, by proving to you that those who are damned are damned by their own malice, because they wanted to be damned. So then, here are two very important truths. If the first truth frightens you, do not hold it against me, as though I wanted to make the road of heaven narrower for you, for I want to be neutral in this matter; rather, hold it against the theologians and Fathers of the Church who will engrave this truth in your heart by the force of reason. If you are disillusioned by the second truth, give thanks to God over it, for He wants only one thing: that you give your hearts totally to Him. Finally, if you oblige me to tell you clearly what I think, I will do so for your consolation."

And...

"Pious souls, you may leave; this sermon is not for you. Its sole purpose is to contain the pride of libertines who cast the holy fear of God out of their heart and join forces with the devil who, according to the sentiment of Eusebius, damns souls by reassuring them"