Why Should I Have Faith?

Started by ialsop, October 27, 2017, 10:58:28 PM

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ialsop

I apologize for making three threads here in one day...just been reading a lot so I have many unrelated questions.

So I am a solid believer in everything Aquinas can prove with pure reason(that God exists, and the soul is immortal, the attributes of God, Aristotelian logic, metaphysics, and ethics in general). What I am having a harder time with is articles of FAITH.

Say, the Trinity although one I have more difficulty with is the Atonement...we could not reasonably grasp these except for Revelation, thus they require faith to believe. But why should I have faith in them? Philosophically, are there reasonable arguments for why I should take the supposed Revelation from God that is the Church's teachings with faithful assent?
All my emotions want to accept it all blindly, as it is my parent's and friends' faith...but philosophically, why should I believe the Catholic Church's authoritative teaching is ACTUALLY the authoritative Word of God? If THIS can be proven to me, then every other doctrine follows, including all of Scripture and everything in that, because the Church says it is inerrant. But why should I give this faithful assent to the Church?

Again, I am not even really doubting these doctrines, as much as I am doubting that I have a good reason to believe them. I DO have faith in them...but I am wondering if it is only due to my upbringing and culture, or if there is a better reason. Part of me wants to develop a prayer life and live without sin zealously, the other part of me wants to cling to philosophical reason alone and have a more vague, casual association with God that my fallible Catholic upbringing helps me with. Help?
-Isaac
The devil has always attempted, by means of the heretics, to deprive
the world of the Mass, making them precursors of the Anti-Christ, who,
before
anything else, will try to abolish and will actually abolish the Holy
Sacrament of the altar, as a punishment for the sins of men, according to
the
prediction of Daniel "And strength was given him against the continual
sacrifice" (Daniel 8:12D).  --St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church

One single Mass gives more honor to God than all the penances of the
Saints, the labors of the Apostles, the sufferings of the martyrs, and even
the burning love of the Blessed Mother of God.  --St. Alphonsus Liguori

ÆneasQuébécois

Quote from: ialsop on October 27, 2017, 10:58:28 PM
Say, the Trinity although one I have more difficulty with is the Atonement...we could not reasonably grasp these except for Revelation, thus they require faith to believe. But why should I have faith in them? Philosophically, are there reasonable arguments for why I should take the supposed Revelation from God that is the Church's teachings with faithful assent?

In regards to things like the Trinity, which are beyond reason, not against reason, one thing to keep in mind is that if they were true (which I believe they are) they are supposed impossible to fully understand, so their complexity is not good evidence against their veracity.
"True evangelical faith...cannot lay dormant; but manifests itself in all righteousness and works of love; it...clothes the naked; feeds the hungry; consoles the afflicted; shelters the miserable; aids and consoles all the oppressed; returns good for evil; serves those that injure it; prays for those that persecute it." ~ Menno Simons

John Lamb

"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: ialsop on October 27, 2017, 10:58:28 PM
Again, I am not even really doubting these doctrines, as much as I am doubting that I have a good reason to believe them. I DO have faith in them...but I am wondering if it is only due to my upbringing and culture, or if there is a better reason.

Faith is a gift of grace.

Reason can assist the intellect in proving the adequacy of faith, its consistency, its sublimity, its logical probability, its historicity, etc., but it cannot ultimately prove faith per se since faith is intrinsically a supernatural act. A gift.

You shouldn't discount your upbringing and culture so easily, though, since these have always been precious instruments by which the transmission of religious truth is often secured.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

John Lamb

#4
The ultimate reason for wanting to believe, or for acquiring the gift of faith, is to share in the divine life of God and to have the mind raised to truths which are above its natural understanding. Philosophical reason is not an impediment to faith, but a preamble or prelude to faith, as it attains the truths about God that are naturally knowable, which serve as a basis for the truths about God which are knowable only supernaturally. What is an impediment to faith is an intellectual pride and self-sufficiency which wants to acquire knowledge solely by its own force and refuses the help of a teacher: and in this case a divine teacher. The best remedy is to reflect on how little we know and how little we can know by our own ability . . . which is what made Socrates wise among the pagans.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

james03

QuoteAgain, I am not even really doubting these doctrines, as much as I am doubting that I have a good reason to believe them.

You already answered your question: Aquinas.  But let's go through the progression:

1.  Faith and Reason work together.  You are not asked to have Faith in the unreasonable.  You ARE asked to have Faith in the unknown, but that is a difference.  And it is important to get that distinction.

2.  You admit Aquinas has proven God.  I agree, and I'll go a step further and say Aristotle / Aquinas have the only rational and self contained system to explain existence. 

3.  In order to accept this (only) rational system, you have to accept all of it as the parts interact and are complimentary.

4.  One conclusion is that God must be outside of time.

Now Faith comes in.  Jesus stated "before Abraham, I Am."  Note carefully he did NOT say "I was".  This statement conveys two facts that Jesus is claiming:
1.  He is outside of time.
2.  He is Truth itself.

Both statements are consistent with what Aristotle and Aquinas claim that God is.  There are other statements in the Bible which are more evidence that He was God, but we'll stick with this one.

Now we have 3 options:
1.  Jesus the carpenter somehow studied Aristotle and concocted the biggest hoax of history.
2.  Jesus was God.
3.  His statements were the coincidental statements of a mad man.

While 2 is the most reasonable, it takes Faith to believe it.

Once we accept Jesus is God we can prove He set up His Church, and thus what the Church proposes we can have Faith in.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Non Nobis

The most important thing is to PRAY to better understand things even naturally, and to be given the grace of Faith especially for those things that are beyond human reasoning.  "Pray always".

Some questions to ask and pray about:

Is Christ God?  (many considerations and MUCH prayer for faith here)

Did Christ found a church? Why?

Would a church Christ/God founded teach truth reliably ?

Does any Church claim to be the One True Church Christ founded, existing in the world continually since it was founded, with Christ as the head of the Church?

Only one Church, the Catholic Church claims this.

Believe the Catholic Church.  Believe all the central teachings that are without question from the Church. They are from God. Doesn't God teach truths that are beyond human reason? Pray for Catholic Faith. You can safely submit to the teachings of the Catholic Church because God is the true Teacher, and God does not lie.

Pray:

Quote from: Act of Faith / Actus Fidei

O my God! I firmly believe that Thou art one God in three Divine persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; I believe that Thy Divine Son became man, and died for our sins, and that he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, who canst neither deceive nor be deceived

Quote from: Catechism of the Catholic Church
III. THE CHARACTERISTICS OF FAITH

Faith is a grace

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven".24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"25

Faith is a human act

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to "yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals",26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

155 In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace."27

Faith and understanding

156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe "because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived".28 So "that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit."29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church's growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability "are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all"; they are "motives of credibility" (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is "by no means a blind impulse of the mind".30

157 Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives."31 "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."32

158 "Faith seeks understanding":33 it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. The grace of faith opens "the eyes of your hearts"34 to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God's plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery. "The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood."35 In the words of St. Augustine, "I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe."36

159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth."37 "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."38
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Xavier

Faith means accepting the word of witness as an authority because he is credible. Now, Jesus Christ is supremely credible - as proven by the prophesies regarding the coming of the Messiah He fulfilled, the miracles that He worked both in His day and that He worked in the history of the Church down till recent times - therefore it is necessary to believe in Him.

Supernatural faith transcends natural reason. Divine faith rests on divine authority, the testimony of Christ and His Church. Human reason rests on human arguments. Reason leads to faith by showing how many and great are the motives of credibility by which God has testified to His Messiah and Christ has testified of His Church, just like all nature and creation testifies to her Creator and God, by the design and order evident in her laws.

God has willed to raise Man to supernatural beatitude, hence right from Adam and Eve He has borne witness to the coming of the Messiah, the divine Seed of a Virgin Mother, has foretold through Abraham, Moses, David and Isaiah the establishment of the universal priesthood of Melchizedek and the continual sacrifice of His body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine through the Law and the Prophets - all of which is fulfilled in His Church .To attain this happy destiny of the blessed and save our souls, the first and most necessary condition is to preserve and maintain our Catholic Faith. That is why we should have - or rather ask God to sustain and increase - faith.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Greg

#8
What have you got to lose?

You are more likely to have a stable and relatively happy marriage, loyal children, avoid screwing other women in middle age like Weinstein and Trump and Mel Gibson, (which comes with enormous costs to you and your wife and kids, and makes you look like an desperate old lecherous fool) and you only have to go to Church on Sunday and pray a bit and have a few more children than most people.  Who, when you are old, if you weren't an domineering asshole raising them, actually like you and come and visit and fix your computer and repair your car.

That's a good trade.

Even if Christianity was false, the average man would still be far better off following it than not.  There is no better secular alternative.  Not even close.

So even if you don't have faith.  And I don't have much.  Then pretend you do.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

ialsop

Thank you all for your responses! It is all very helpful and edifying.

Update: Reading the CCC, starting on page one and moving onward, has done a lot to show me that the God I encounter using my intellect is the same God that revealed Himself to the Jews and to us all through Christ. That, plus all your responses, plus prayer, has shown me that it is reasonable after all to put my faith into something I don't understand(God's Revelation).

So...now the hard part. Developing a faithful interior life and simple virtuous life. That is so much harder, albeit so much simpler, than understanding the intricacies of philosophy.
The devil has always attempted, by means of the heretics, to deprive
the world of the Mass, making them precursors of the Anti-Christ, who,
before
anything else, will try to abolish and will actually abolish the Holy
Sacrament of the altar, as a punishment for the sins of men, according to
the
prediction of Daniel "And strength was given him against the continual
sacrifice" (Daniel 8:12D).  --St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church

One single Mass gives more honor to God than all the penances of the
Saints, the labors of the Apostles, the sufferings of the martyrs, and even
the burning love of the Blessed Mother of God.  --St. Alphonsus Liguori

james03

Work on the virtues.  I recommend "The Four Cardinal Virtues" by Pieper.  An excellent way to gain graces to grow in a virtue is to fast.  A good fast for young people is an electronics fast once per week.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Greg

Thanks James.  That would explain my severe hemorrhoids
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Carleendiane

#12
Greg, going through my issues with doubt, I used the same thinking pattern as you. I felt that no matter what, the Catholic Church's  wisdom would make our lives better by merely following its recipe for life. I was convinced there was no better way to pattern my life. I began merely by following in the footsteps of Catholics I respected.

Then I met Father Hardon, who absolutely convinced me through vlassed called "The Economy of Salvation", that  not only was it a great and lucrative business deal, but it is the only way to make sense of life. Before long I became convinced that God loves me and an investment of heart and soul in the Catholic Church, my Savior, Jesus, His mother, Mary, and all the saints was a wise and fulfilling investment. No matter what I put in, it was matched by my gracious and loving Lord.

My faith went from an investment and advantage, following the Catholics I well respected, to an earnest Faith. An earnest love for my Redeemer, and a complete turnover of my life, heart and soul. Then I met the Old Mass and I've never regretted the time spent learning, and my adherence to the Church which just began as a good idea that simply made sense.
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.

Greg

#13
This article also suggests that even if we are cosmic accidents and religion is all brain chemistry there is little upside in trying to rewire ourselves.  Religious people, who like peace, tend to have better lives.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10914137/What-God-does-to-your-brain.html

Obviously, a giant global miracle or massive worldwide disaster (trauma) would put this issue to bed for another several 100 years.

Nothing is likely to prove atheism all of a sudden.  Perhaps 200 years of drip, drip, drip will make religion even less relevant but none of us will be around to see that, so why change?

I've never pretended to be anything other than a self-interested pragmatist.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Kephapaulos

Quote from: james03 on October 30, 2017, 08:28:42 AM
QuoteAgain, I am not even really doubting these doctrines, as much as I am doubting that I have a good reason to believe them.

You already answered your question: Aquinas.  But let's go through the progression:

1.  Faith and Reason work together.  You are not asked to have Faith in the unreasonable.  You ARE asked to have Faith in the unknown, but that is a difference.  And it is important to get that distinction.

2.  You admit Aquinas has proven God.  I agree, and I'll go a step further and say Aristotle / Aquinas have the only rational and self contained system to explain existence. 

3.  In order to accept this (only) rational system, you have to accept all of it as the parts interact and are complimentary.

4.  One conclusion is that God must be outside of time.

Now Faith comes in.  Jesus stated "before Abraham, I Am."  Note carefully he did NOT say "I was".  This statement conveys two facts that Jesus is claiming:
1.  He is outside of time.
2.  He is Truth itself.

Both statements are consistent with what Aristotle and Aquinas claim that God is.  There are other statements in the Bible which are more evidence that He was God, but we'll stick with this one.

Now we have 3 options:
1.  Jesus the carpenter somehow studied Aristotle and concocted the biggest hoax of history.
2.  Jesus was God.
3.  His statements were the coincidental statements of a mad man.

While 2 is the most reasonable, it takes Faith to believe it.

Once we accept Jesus is God we can prove He set up His Church, and thus what the Church proposes we can have Faith in.

St. Thomas is correct, of course.

The challenge comes with applying the abstract or ideals to reality. I keep remembering an episode of Off the Menu where Charles Coulombe talks about Woodrow Wilson's trying to mold the situation of World War I according to his ideals. Coulombe said it is indeed a dangerous thing when someone tries to mold reality to his ideals instead of working with the reality at hand. I think that is especially a challenge for me. Nevertheless, by God's grace I still believe and have the faith in spite of my greatest temptations and downfalls.