The Benedict Option (ie. moving to trad-land)

[Greg]

There's a similar thought at play.

To opt out of society is somehow to fight it.

The problem is that you cannot sustain a community like that past a few generations.

The Amish, Mennonites, and Russian Old Believers have all succeeded.  The problem might be, though, that they had the advantage of getting started centuries ago, so their contempt for the world is almost a serene and second nature thing, and they have known for generations how to farm.  Things tend to fall apart when modern people opt out of society with an ideological zealotry.  Whether it's hippie communes or religious homesteaders, the failure seems to lie in caring more about demonizing society than in taking the time to learn how to profitably work the land and live within frugal means.

The are a stagnant monoculture.  They could easily be wiped out by technological change that made their human Labour worth less than it is now.  Robotic farming for example.

[Mono no aware]

The are a stagnant monoculture.  They could easily be wiped out by technological change that made their human Labour worth less than it is now.  Robotic farming for example.

"Robotic farming" has existed in some form since the invention of machines, but the Amish still insist on using oxen plows and horse & buggies.  They consider the value of human labor to be more than something you can put a dollar amount on.  The ora in "ora et labora" sees the work itself as essential to a contemplative frame of mind.  Getting out in the fresh air (or even damp and humid air) and coaxing things out of the earth and falling in with the rhythm of the seasons certainly has greater psychological benefits than what industrialized society allows for: coming home from an office job performed under fluorescent lights and flopping down in a puffy recliner, growing fat on microwave pizza while playing video games and watching porn.  That's just common sense, of course, but it means that there's an intangible value to working even when a robot could otherwise be doing it for you.  Secular people who could buy produce at supermarkets still plant their own gardens.

I will agree that the Amish are a "stagnant monoculture," but they have nevertheless succeeded in lasting down the generations and transmitting their faith (which I presume would be the standard of a traditional Catholic community).  The Amish could never produce a Jimi Hendrix because they don't believe in electric guitars, and that's their loss.  I imagine it gets pretty boring listening to a capella hymns about peace in the valley all the time.  Probably they find consolation in their faith, though, and what I would consider a deprivation they don't see as any big deal.

[Mono no aware]

That reads almost like the family in Waiting for the Apocalypse during its time in Portugal, minus the crops and livestock.

Yes, that was the kind of thing that made the book appeal to me (even though I still haven't read it.  I have to get around to that sometime.  I am currently avoiding it by reading Morrissey's Autobiography instead, and should probably be ashamed of myself.  It has its own form of a "certain tragedy," though).

[Gardener]

The are a stagnant monoculture.  They could easily be wiped out by technological change that made their human Labour worth less than it is now.  Robotic farming for example.

Isn't the majority of their farming for themselves? There will always be a niche market for Amish products, aside from their produce.

[Greg]

They must need some income for fuel, clothes, tractor parts, animal feed, antibiotics etc.

I found this about Amish money.

https://www.frugalconfessions.com/amish-finances/amish-finances.php

Can you see Trads co-operating to this degree?

[Mono no aware]

I wasn't saying that traditional Catholics will necessarily be successful at it in the long term; only that it has been done before by other Christian societies.  For traditional Catholics, it will almost certainly look something more like St. Mary's than an earthy and contemptus mundi-tinged "back to the land" movement.  Based on this thread alone, the biggest complaint about St. Mary's is, "where are the jobs?"  It's "show me the money!"

[awkwardcustomer]

I wasn't saying that traditional Catholics will necessarily be successful at it in the long term; only that it has been done before by other Christian societies.  For traditional Catholics, it will almost certainly look something more like St. Mary's than an earthy and contemptus mundi-tinged "back to the land" movement.  Based on this thread alone, the biggest complaint about St. Mary's is, "where are the jobs?"  It's "show me the money!"

Babylon the Bourgeois is stronger than you think.

[Maximilian]

I found this about Amish money.

https://www.frugalconfessions.com/amish-finances/amish-finances.php

Thanks for posting that link.

That reminds me of a joke I heard many years ago:

An Amish farmer reached an agreement to buy a field from a neighboring farmer for $110,000. After they shook hands, the Amish farmer reached up onto his shelf and took down a bag which was filled with money.

When the farmer selling the field had counted the money in the bag, he said, "This bag only has $100,000 in it."

"My apologies," said the Amish farmer. "I grabbed the wrong bag." Then he reached up on the shelf and took down another bag that had $110,000 in it.

The point of the joke, which I heard back in the eighties while I was in Lancaster PA, was to reinforce the stereotype that Amish farmers have unlimited amounts of cash.

There was a case that made the news a little while back of some Amish in Ohio who were arrested when during a quarrel with another group of Amish they forcibly shaved their beards. While the one Amish farmer was sitting in jail awaiting trial, he received a royalty check for $2 million from the fracking leasing companies.

[Carleendiane]

I live around the Amish. They are very shrewd businessmen.

As far as that court case goes, I remember when that came down. It was actually an interesting case.

[Mono no aware]

I also seem to remember that there was a case in the 90s where Amish teenagers during their rumschpringes (or, "go and live among the heathen" year) began their own little drug-dealing outift, convincing suppliers to work with them because who would suspect an Amish?  And dutifully they brought their proceeds back home to their parents and communities.

But the Amish profit from their image as Luddite agrarians; it's good for their business.  My mother in New Jersey has a friend who swears by the food from the Amish stand at the farmers' market, contending that Amish-raised crops and livestock are "so much more healthy and organic."  It need not be true; the Amish might use all the pesticides and hormones in the world for all anyone knows, and they don't even have to bother to apply for organic certification.  People just have this concept of them as so outmoded as to be pure.  Suburbanites take day trips to Pennsylvania Dutch country to gawk at the old-fashioned people in black riding horse-drawn carriages, the men with their beards and the women with their bonnets.

[Jacob]

No oil to be fracked in Iowa, but a lot of the Amish around here do very well selling handcrafted furniture.

[Greg]

I wasn't saying that traditional Catholics will necessarily be successful at it in the long term; only that it has been done before by other Christian societies.  For traditional Catholics, it will almost certainly look something more like St. Mary's than an earthy and contemptus mundi-tinged "back to the land" movement.  Based on this thread alone, the biggest complaint about St. Mary's is, "where are the jobs?"  It's "show me the money!"

The jobs are created by an entrepreneurial class of people who most Trads despise.

[bigbadtrad]

I wasn't saying that traditional Catholics will necessarily be successful at it in the long term; only that it has been done before by other Christian societies.  For traditional Catholics, it will almost certainly look something more like St. Mary's than an earthy and contemptus mundi-tinged "back to the land" movement.  Based on this thread alone, the biggest complaint about St. Mary's is, "where are the jobs?"  It's "show me the money!"

The jobs are created by an entrepreneurial class of people who most Trads despise.

Which is completely accurate and ironic. They want the entrepreneurial class to save them with $100k jobs while dreaming of being a nest of John Senior drones that makes $200,000+/yr that will subsist on teaching each other in a circular firing squad with fine tobacco and wine.

But don't worry it exists in "Somewhereville" and St. Marys is a classless, uncharitable ghetto. I was there for 6+ years I've seen these types for years. One guy I knew hated Onyx for it's greedy pillaging while reading distributist works in a white collar job and after he lost his job and started a business he couldn't fathom how Onyx could be so generous with their employees.

[JubilateDeo]

I agree about the Amish "image" vs. the reality.  We got our dog from the Amish and it wasn't until later that I realized how horrible and inhumane their puppy mills are.  I had this image in my mind of friendly Pennsylvania Dutch living harmoniously with the animals, but if I knew what the puppy mills were like, I would not have patronized them.  Same with the bakeries.  I had this image of old ladies rolling out pie crusts by hand and kneading their own bread dough, but every time I've bought baked goods from them, I've been as underwhelmed as I am with most bakeries.  There's nothing "artisanal" about it. 

[Carleendiane]

I agree about the Amish "image" vs. the reality.  We got our dog from the Amish and it wasn't until later that I realized how horrible and inhumane their puppy mills are.  I had this image in my mind of friendly Pennsylvania Dutch living harmoniously with the animals, but if I knew what the puppy mills were like, I would not have patronized them.  Same with the bakeries.  I had this image of old ladies rolling out pie crusts by hand and kneading their own bread dough, but every time I've bought baked goods from them, I've been as underwhelmed as I am with most bakeries.  There's nothing "artisanal" about it.

I hate their baked goods, at least what's aroundnhere. Their bread is too sweet, and then use too little salt. Blahhh!