The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty

[Rocket Scientist]

Ellipses can Eclipse Ecclesial Intent

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/08Jul/jul7str.htm

In this article Griff gives an example of the Dimonds cutting parts of quotes out that would undermine what the prefer to believe in regards to the "No Salvation Outside the Church" Dogma which they have changed into thereon personal "No Salvation Apart from Water" Dogma.

[Inquisitor]

Another of their lies is their assertion that that (at least almost) all sede priests teach that it is possible to be saved in a false religion. I spoke a few years ago with Father Trytek and he called that view a severe error.

[catholictradition]

Another of their lies is their assertion that that (at least almost) all sede priests teach that it is possible to be saved in a false religion. I spoke a few years ago with Father Trytek and he called that view a severe error.

The Dimonds' statement on this matter is absolutely true and well documented.  You are the one who is lying.  Below are a few examples that are noteworthy.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, p. 216: "Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.   There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...  But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.  The CMRI, Sanborn, Cekada, SSPV, and others hold the same position as Lefebvre on this matter.  They would not condemn or reject Lefebvre's statement.

Bishop Sanborn, Feb. 17, 2008: "If someone is saved who is in those false religions, it has nothing to do with those false religions; it has to do with the grace of God and their ignorance."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.

Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, p. 10: "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."

This is clear heresy.  The CMRI, SSPV, etc. hold the same position.  Indeed, here you can see how Fr. Bernard Welp of the CMRI agreed with Fr. Denis Fahey's blatant heresy, that Jews who reject Jesus can be in the state of grace.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/fr-bernard-welp-cmri/

FR. DENIS FAHEY TAUGHT THE HERESY THAT JEWS WHO REJECT CHRIST CAN BE IN THE STATE OF GRACE; CMRI PRIEST AGREES WITH IT

Fr. Denis Fahey, The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation (1953), p. 52: "The Jews, as a nation, are objectively aiming at giving society a direction which is in complete opposition to the order God wants.  It is possible that a member of the Jewish Nation, who rejects Our Lord, may have the supernatural life which God wishes to see in every soul, and so be good with the goodness God wants, but objectively, the direction he is seeking to give to the world is opposed to God and to that life, and therefore is not good.  If a Jew who rejects our Lord is good in the way God demands, it is in spite of the movement in which he and his nation are engaged."

To the question, do you agree with the statements made by Fr. Denis Fahey and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Fr. Bernard Welp of the CMRI responded on Nov. 16, 2016, by saying:

"Certainly..."

So, you are LYING when you say that the Dimonds' statements is false and even a lie, when it is absolutely true and documented (as we can see above and other examples could be given, including on audio).  Also, here is MHFM's most recent video.  It's a very important video on the salvation and baptism issue.

CORNELIUS, THE GIFT OF LANGUAGES & THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/speaking-in-tongues-baptism-holy-spirit/

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztqdmCIGSDY[/yt]

[christulsa]

Another of their lies is their assertion that that (at least almost) all sede priests teach that it is possible to be saved in a false religion. I spoke a few years ago with Father Trytek and he called that view a severe error.

The Dimonds' statement on this matter is absolutely true and well documented.  You are the one who is lying.  Below are a few examples that are noteworthy.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, p. 216: "Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.   There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...  But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.  The CMRI, Sanborn, Cekada, SSPV, and others hold the same position as Lefebvre on this matter.  They would not condemn or reject Lefebvre's statement.

Bishop Sanborn, Feb. 17, 2008: "If someone is saved who is in those false religions, it has nothing to do with those false religions; it has to do with the grace of God and their ignorance."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.

Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, p. 10: "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."

This is clear heresy.  The CMRI, SSPV, etc. hold the same position.  Indeed, here you can see how Fr. Bernard Welp of the CMRI agreed with Fr. Denis Fahey's blatant heresy, that Jews who reject Jesus can be in the state of grace.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/fr-bernard-welp-cmri/

FR. DENIS FAHEY TAUGHT THE HERESY THAT JEWS WHO REJECT CHRIST CAN BE IN THE STATE OF GRACE; CMRI PRIEST AGREES WITH IT

Fr. Denis Fahey, The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation (1953), p. 52: "The Jews, as a nation, are objectively aiming at giving society a direction which is in complete opposition to the order God wants.  It is possible that a member of the Jewish Nation, who rejects Our Lord, may have the supernatural life which God wishes to see in every soul, and so be good with the goodness God wants, but objectively, the direction he is seeking to give to the world is opposed to God and to that life, and therefore is not good.  If a Jew who rejects our Lord is good in the way God demands, it is in spite of the movement in which he and his nation are engaged."

To the question, do you agree with the statements made by Fr. Denis Fahey and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Fr. Bernard Welp of the CMRI responded on Nov. 16, 2016, by saying:

"Certainly..."

So, you are LYING when you say that the Dimonds' statements is false and even a lie, when it is absolutely true and documented (as we can see above and other examples could be given, including on audio).  Also, here is MHFM's most recent video.  It's a very important video on the salvation and baptism issue.

CORNELIUS, THE GIFT OF LANGUAGES & THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/speaking-in-tongues-baptism-holy-spirit/

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztqdmCIGSDY[/yt]

Are you not afraid that following the way they condemn almost completely everyone but themselves, that you may be offending God?  Or perhaps you are one of the two Dimonds? 

[LouisIX]

I really, really do not think that the Dimonds have any relation to Scholasticism.

[catholictradition]

I really, really do not think that the Dimonds have any relation to Scholasticism.

That's because you are a blind person.  Do you consider these statements to be orthodox or heretical?

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, p. 216: "Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.   There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...  But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.

Bishop Sanborn, Feb. 17, 2008: "If someone is saved who is in those false religions, it has nothing to do with those false religions; it has to do with the grace of God and their ignorance."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith that all who die as non-Catholics are not saved.

Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, p. 10: "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's teaching at the Council of Florence.

[catholictradition]

Another of their lies is their assertion that that (at least almost) all sede priests teach that it is possible to be saved in a false religion. I spoke a few years ago with Father Trytek and he called that view a severe error.

The Dimonds' statement on this matter is absolutely true and well documented.  You are the one who is lying.  Below are a few examples that are noteworthy.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, p. 216: "Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.   There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...  But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.  The CMRI, Sanborn, Cekada, SSPV, and others hold the same position as Lefebvre on this matter.  They would not condemn or reject Lefebvre's statement.

Bishop Sanborn, Feb. 17, 2008: "If someone is saved who is in those false religions, it has nothing to do with those false religions; it has to do with the grace of God and their ignorance."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.

Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, p. 10: "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."

This is clear heresy.  The CMRI, SSPV, etc. hold the same position.  Indeed, here you can see how Fr. Bernard Welp of the CMRI agreed with Fr. Denis Fahey's blatant heresy, that Jews who reject Jesus can be in the state of grace.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/fr-bernard-welp-cmri/

FR. DENIS FAHEY TAUGHT THE HERESY THAT JEWS WHO REJECT CHRIST CAN BE IN THE STATE OF GRACE; CMRI PRIEST AGREES WITH IT

Fr. Denis Fahey, The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation (1953), p. 52: "The Jews, as a nation, are objectively aiming at giving society a direction which is in complete opposition to the order God wants.  It is possible that a member of the Jewish Nation, who rejects Our Lord, may have the supernatural life which God wishes to see in every soul, and so be good with the goodness God wants, but objectively, the direction he is seeking to give to the world is opposed to God and to that life, and therefore is not good.  If a Jew who rejects our Lord is good in the way God demands, it is in spite of the movement in which he and his nation are engaged."

To the question, do you agree with the statements made by Fr. Denis Fahey and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Fr. Bernard Welp of the CMRI responded on Nov. 16, 2016, by saying:

"Certainly..."

So, you are LYING when you say that the Dimonds' statements is false and even a lie, when it is absolutely true and documented (as we can see above and other examples could be given, including on audio).  Also, here is MHFM's most recent video.  It's a very important video on the salvation and baptism issue.

CORNELIUS, THE GIFT OF LANGUAGES & THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/speaking-in-tongues-baptism-holy-spirit/

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztqdmCIGSDY[/yt]

Are you not afraid that following the way they condemn almost completely everyone but themselves, that you may be offending God?  Or perhaps you are one of the two Dimonds?

Defending the Church's teaching and rejecting heresies is pleasing to God and the requirement of a Catholic.  Your problem is that you are apparently not concerned about the Church's teaching and the facts I cited.  You ignored the facts.  The position of the men cited above is certainly contrary to what all Catholics must believe, profess, and preach on salvation (as defined by the Council of Florence).  If you can't see that, then you don't possess the Catholic faith.

[Kaesekopf]

 

[christulsa]

Another of their lies is their assertion that that (at least almost) all sede priests teach that it is possible to be saved in a false religion. I spoke a few years ago with Father Trytek and he called that view a severe error.

The Dimonds' statement on this matter is absolutely true and well documented.  You are the one who is lying.  Below are a few examples that are noteworthy.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, p. 216: "Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.   There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...  But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.  The CMRI, Sanborn, Cekada, SSPV, and others hold the same position as Lefebvre on this matter.  They would not condemn or reject Lefebvre's statement.

Bishop Sanborn, Feb. 17, 2008: "If someone is saved who is in those false religions, it has nothing to do with those false religions; it has to do with the grace of God and their ignorance."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.

Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, p. 10: "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."

This is clear heresy.  The CMRI, SSPV, etc. hold the same position.  Indeed, here you can see how Fr. Bernard Welp of the CMRI agreed with Fr. Denis Fahey's blatant heresy, that Jews who reject Jesus can be in the state of grace.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/fr-bernard-welp-cmri/

FR. DENIS FAHEY TAUGHT THE HERESY THAT JEWS WHO REJECT CHRIST CAN BE IN THE STATE OF GRACE; CMRI PRIEST AGREES WITH IT

Fr. Denis Fahey, The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation (1953), p. 52: "The Jews, as a nation, are objectively aiming at giving society a direction which is in complete opposition to the order God wants.  It is possible that a member of the Jewish Nation, who rejects Our Lord, may have the supernatural life which God wishes to see in every soul, and so be good with the goodness God wants, but objectively, the direction he is seeking to give to the world is opposed to God and to that life, and therefore is not good.  If a Jew who rejects our Lord is good in the way God demands, it is in spite of the movement in which he and his nation are engaged."

To the question, do you agree with the statements made by Fr. Denis Fahey and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Fr. Bernard Welp of the CMRI responded on Nov. 16, 2016, by saying:

"Certainly..."

So, you are LYING when you say that the Dimonds' statements is false and even a lie, when it is absolutely true and documented (as we can see above and other examples could be given, including on audio).  Also, here is MHFM's most recent video.  It's a very important video on the salvation and baptism issue.

CORNELIUS, THE GIFT OF LANGUAGES & THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/speaking-in-tongues-baptism-holy-spirit/

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztqdmCIGSDY[/yt]

Are you not afraid that following the way they condemn almost completely everyone but themselves, that you may be offending God?  Or perhaps you are one of the two Dimonds?

Defending the Church's teaching and rejecting heresies is pleasing to God and the requirement of a Catholic. Your problem is that you are apparently not concerned about the Church's teaching and the facts I cited.  You ignored the facts.  The position of the men cited above is certainly contrary to what all Catholics must believe, profess, and preach on salvation (as defined by the Council of Florence).  If you can't see that, then you don't possess the Catholic faith.

Ok.  I'm 95% certain you're a Dimond brother. 
I made fun of you two here about a year ago.  Sorry about that.  Peace be with you.  Really liked one of your free dvds against evolution.  I disagree about BoD and SV, but wish you two well.  PS You should join in on other topics sometime.  The forum owner Kaesekopf I bet would find you an intriguing addition to the forum.

[Inquisitor]

Another of their lies is their assertion that that (at least almost) all sede priests teach that it is possible to be saved in a false religion. I spoke a few years ago with Father Trytek and he called that view a severe error.

The Dimonds' statement on this matter is absolutely true and well documented.  You are the one who is lying.  Below are a few examples that are noteworthy.

May I ask why you say I am liying? Do you know Father Trytek?

[LouisIX]

I really, really do not think that the Dimonds have any relation to Scholasticism.

That's because you are a blind person.  Do you consider these statements to be orthodox or heretical?

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, p. 216: "Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.   There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...  But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.

Bishop Sanborn, Feb. 17, 2008: "If someone is saved who is in those false religions, it has nothing to do with those false religions; it has to do with the grace of God and their ignorance."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith that all who die as non-Catholics are not saved.

Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, p. 10: "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's teaching at the Council of Florence.

You realize that Scholasticism is not a heresy, right?

[Gardener]

I really, really do not think that the Dimonds have any relation to Scholasticism.

That's because you are a blind person.  Do you consider these statements to be orthodox or heretical?

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, p. 216: "Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.   There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...  But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.

Bishop Sanborn, Feb. 17, 2008: "If someone is saved who is in those false religions, it has nothing to do with those false religions; it has to do with the grace of God and their ignorance."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith that all who die as non-Catholics are not saved.

Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, p. 10: "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's teaching at the Council of Florence.

You realize that Scholasticism is not a heresy, right?

Answers to Difficulties

1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20)..

-St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, Q14, Art XI

St. Thomas... total heretic!

[Prayerful]

I really, really do not think that the Dimonds have any relation to Scholasticism.

That's because you are a blind person.  Do you consider these statements to be orthodox or heretical?

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, p. 216: "Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.   There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...  But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith.

Bishop Sanborn, Feb. 17, 2008: "If someone is saved who is in those false religions, it has nothing to do with those false religions; it has to do with the grace of God and their ignorance."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's profession of faith that all who die as non-Catholics are not saved.

Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, p. 10: "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."

This is clear heresy, contrary to the Church's teaching at the Council of Florence.

Yes, outside the Church there is absolutely no salvation. Neither Americanist translations of the Cathechism of St Pius X, nor out of context quotations from the Angelic Doctor make it otherwise. Archbishop Lefebvre fought against what was in effect a ban on the Mass of the Latin Rite, and Catholics have to be so grateful to that saintly man, but was sometimes prone to phrase things in an uncertain way. For instance what his position on sedevacantism? My possibly wrong interpretation was that +Lefebvre accepted it as a possible way to face the Great Apostasy, but it was not something he could tolerate in his priestly society. Priestly societies are not democracies. We should avoid reading or interpreting things ripped from context. However the dogma of the Church is certain on this matter:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Cantate Domino: The Council of Florence: Papal Bull of Pope Eugenius IV

[Gardener]

There was nothing out of context from the quotation I provided by St. Thomas.

Nor is there anything out of context about this answer:
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/summa/TP/TP068.html#TPQ68A2THEP1

[Miriam_M]

The preposition "by" is not equivalent to the preposition "in."  (Speaking now of the quote from Lefebvre.)  There are many French prepositions, just as there are many English prepositions.  There are reasons for the differences among those prepositions.  +Lefebvre illustrated in his explanation why such distinctions must be understood.

Verbs and prepositions are the two most important grammatical aspects of Catholic dogma.