The Existence of Hell.

Started by lethalbean95, March 23, 2017, 06:44:37 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

lethalbean95

This isn't a question meant to undermine or put really into question Church teaching or its legitimacy. But I am just curious as to what the answer would be. If God doesn't create evil, then why did he create Hell? Or how did hell come into existence? Pretty simple.

Bernadette

#1
God created hell as a place for the devil and the fallen angels because once they rebelled against Him, their rebellion was fixed in eternity (because it was impossible for them to repent) and they could no longer remain in Heaven, which is so pure that sin can't exist there. People who die unrepentant of their mortal sin hate God so much, and prove it by that very act of persisting in un-repentance, that they don't want to go to Heaven. And God, being a perfect gentleman, never forces us to endure His company. There's only one place that isn't heaven, and doesn't lead to heaven (ie: Purgatory): and that place is hell, where the devil and fallen angels (who also hate God) dwell. So souls who die in (un-repented-of) mortal sin go there, so they can all be "friends, together" and spend eternity hating God, and hating themselves for being so stupid as to hate Him.
My Lord and my God.

LouisIX

God doesn't create evil but He permits it out of His justice. The same goes for Hell.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

John Lamb

God creates physical evils (like the fires of hell) but not moral evils (an evil will). However, when I say physical evils, it's not that these things are evil in themselves (the fire of hell is not evil in itself), it's only an evil relative to the subject that is harmed by it, and God only permits these evils to befall us that some greater good may come of it - in the same way you might tolerate your child undergoing a painful operation if it meant it would save their life. The good that comes of hellfire is justice. Those who are damned to hell are given a perfect understanding of why they are damned, and why they deserve the punishments they have.

I remember before my conversion I was more in despair over there being no hell, than in there being no heaven, because there being no hell would mean that I could live a diabolical life and never get the punishment I deserved. This is why the thought of hell is, in a sense, comforting. It means that my actions have consequences, that I can't just do what I like, and that the desire for justice in me shall one day be satisfied, one way or the other: blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, for they shall have their fill. This is why I think the only consolation of the damned must be that they know that they got what they deserved (but perhaps even that will be taken from them, I don't know, because it takes a degree of humility to recognise that).
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

Bernadette

#4
Quote from: John Lamb on March 24, 2017, 04:29:56 AM
I remember before my conversion I was more in despair over there being no hell, than in there being no heaven, because there being no hell would mean that I could live a diabolical life and never get the punishment I deserved. This is why the thought of hell is, in a sense, comforting. It means that my actions have consequences, that I can't just do what I like, and that the desire for justice in me shall one day be satisfied, one way or the other: blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, for they shall have their fill. This is why I think the only consolation of the damned must be that they know that they got what they deserved (but perhaps even that will be taken from them, I don't know, because it takes a degree of humility to recognise that).
This is such an important point! I've recently noticed it in myself: that if I don't see an opportunity for reparation (or justice, if you will: paying one's debts, to the extent one is able, not necessarily to the extent one's lower nature is content to be satisfied with) after finding some defect in myself, or my outward conduct, my sense of guilt becomes downright unbearable. It really is a thirst for justice, in that it needs to be satisfied, in order for the soul to have peace. I think it's part of what's moving me to be more eager to make reparation for sin, in the first place: I see myself as capable of doing it, the object itself is good, it should (and hopefully will) bear good fruit, so go for it! But obviously, the restraint of obedience is definitely necessary in such cases, to keep the soul from going "hog wild" and exhausting itself, the mind, and the body with excessive zeal.

I experienced a short interval of being able to do exactly as I liked, when I was pretty young (about 11-12), and I realize now that I really didn't like it. I craved structure and boundaries, unbeknownst to myself: the crasving was there, but I didn't know what was missing. Thankfully for me I was a very "young" 12, so I didn't do my soul any lasting harm because nothing that I inclined to was very evil, but that lack of direction and purpose is not something that I would recommend for anyone, regardless of age. I could have been ruined, under such conditions. Ironically, I then immediately went back into an incredibly strict environment, where I didn't thrive (and hadn't formerly thrived) any better. I had structure, but perceived no patience or understanding from my "superiors:" they didn't seem to understand or accept that I actually wanted to do the right thing. Now, in fairness to them, they might have seen this desire, but they didn't effectively communicate an understanding of it to me. I could easily have been ruined under those conditions, too, and as it was, I noticed the effects of the latter "system" affecting me negatively for far longer than the former.

Thankfully for all of us, God understands us perfectly and so no such crushing harshness comes from Him: His yoke is easy, and His burden light, in that respect, if in no other. :)
My Lord and my God.

lethalbean95

Quote from: John Lamb on March 24, 2017, 04:29:56 AM
God creates physical evils (like the fires of hell) but not moral evils (an evil will). However, when I say physical evils, it's not that these things are evil in themselves (the fire of hell is not evil in itself), it's only an evil relative to the subject that is harmed by it, and God only permits these evils to befall us that some greater good may come of it - in the same way you might tolerate your child undergoing a painful operation if it meant it would save their life. The good that comes of hellfire is justice. Those who are damned to hell are given a perfect understanding of why they are damned, and why they deserve the punishments they have.

I remember before my conversion I was more in despair over there being no hell, than in there being no heaven, because there being no hell would mean that I could live a diabolical life and never get the punishment I deserved. This is why the thought of hell is, in a sense, comforting. It means that my actions have consequences, that I can't just do what I like, and that the desire for justice in me shall one day be satisfied, one way or the other: blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, for they shall have their fill. This is why I think the only consolation of the damned must be that they know that they got what they deserved (but perhaps even that will be taken from them, I don't know, because it takes a degree of humility to recognise that).

Thanks John. A good solid reponse.

Bernadette

Quote from: LouisIX on March 23, 2017, 07:00:42 PM
God doesn't create evil but He permits it out of His justice. The same goes for Hell.

One day, I will achieve this level of concision. I should practice, like Norman MacLean in A River Runs Through it;)
My Lord and my God.

Kreuzritter

Quote from: LouisIX on March 23, 2017, 07:00:42 PM
God doesn't create evil but He permits it out of His justice. The same goes for Hell.

Do you have an authoritative pre-Vatican II source for this claim as it regards Hell? I've looked and seen answers provided by sources (Catholic News Service, Cahtolic Answers) that are form their argumentation obviously motivated by the Novus Ordo tendency to focus on Hell as a self-inflicted state of separation from God and deny by silence that it is also a divinely willed punishment against reprobates.

The damned are apparently corporeally present in Hell, meaning that it is not only a spiritual state of separation from God but also a physical place. I read in scripture "'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels", and this mention of preparation implies to me some degree of creative activity, and find further in Judith 16 that "Woe be to the nation that riseth up against my people: for the Lord almighty will take revenge on them, in the day of judgment he will visit them. For he will give fire, and worms into their flesh, that they may burn, and may feel for ever", which decribes, by "he will give", active punishment by God of the wicked in Hell. And, according to Benedict XII, ""According to God's general ordinance, the souls of those who die in a personal grievous sin, descend immediately into hell, where they will be tormented by the pains of hell", so God ordains, not merely "allows", the descent of reprobates into Hell.

LouisIX

Quote from: Kreuzritter on March 30, 2017, 03:12:14 AM
Quote from: LouisIX on March 23, 2017, 07:00:42 PM
God doesn't create evil but He permits it out of His justice. The same goes for Hell.

Do you have an authoritative pre-Vatican II source for this claim as it regards Hell? I've looked and seen answers provided by sources (Catholic News Service, Cahtolic Answers) that are form their argumentation obviously motivated by the Novus Ordo tendency to focus on Hell as a self-inflicted state of separation from God and deny by silence that it is also a divinely willed punishment against reprobates.

The damned are apparently corporeally present in Hell, meaning that it is not only a spiritual state of separation from God but also a physical place. I read in scripture "'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels", and this mention of preparation implies to me some degree of creative activity, and find further in Judith 16 that "Woe be to the nation that riseth up against my people: for the Lord almighty will take revenge on them, in the day of judgment he will visit them. For he will give fire, and worms into their flesh, that they may burn, and may feel for ever", which decribes, by "he will give", active punishment by God of the wicked in Hell. And, according to Benedict XII, ""According to God's general ordinance, the souls of those who die in a personal grievous sin, descend immediately into hell, where they will be tormented by the pains of hell", so God ordains, not merely "allows", the descent of reprobates into Hell.

ST I, q. 23, a. 5, ad 3:
QuoteThe reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. Thus He is said to have made all things through His goodness, so that the divine goodness might be represented in things. Now it is necessary that God's goodness, which in itself is one and undivided, should be manifested in many ways in His creation; because creatures in themselves cannot attain to the simplicity of God. Thus it is that for the completion of the universe there are required different grades of being; some of which hold a high and some a low place in the universe. That this multiformity of grades may be preserved in things, God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above (Question [22], Article [2]). Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Rm. 9:22,23): "What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory" and (2 Tim. 2:20): "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor." Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err." Thus too, in the things of nature, a reason can be assigned, since primary matter is altogether uniform, why one part of it was fashioned by God from the beginning under the form of fire, another under the form of earth, that there might be a diversity of species in things of nature. Yet why this particular part of matter is under this particular form, and that under another, depends upon the simple will of God; as from the simple will of the artificer it depends that this stone is in part of the wall, and that in another; although the plan requires that some stones should be in this place, and some in that place. Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. This is what the master of the house said: "Take what is thine, and go thy way. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will?" (Mt. 20:14,15).

ST I-II, q. 79, a. 1:
QuoteFor it happens that God does not give some the assistance, whereby they may avoid sin, which assistance were He to give, they would not sin. But He does all this according to the order of His wisdom and justice, since He Himself is Wisdom and Justice: so that if someone sin it is not imputable to Him as though He were the cause of that sin; even as a pilot is not said to cause the wrecking of the ship, through not steering the ship, unless he cease to steer while able and bound to steer. It is therefore evident that God is nowise a cause of sin.

Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, The One God, 701:
QuoteIn this whole question there is no proposition more obscure than that God permits the final impenitence of some (for instance, of the bad thief rathr than of the other) as a punishment for previous sins which de facto will not be forgiven and for a greater good, which includes the manifestation of infinite justice. Indeed this proposition is most obscure. But that our firm assent to this proposition should be made easier for us, we may consider the fact that its contradictory cannot be upheld, or that the aforesaid proposition cannot be proved false.

Garrigou, The One God, 705:
QuoteFor God does not will the permission of sin because of His love and intention to impose finite chastisement, for that would be repugnant to justice. But because He wills the permission of sin for the manifestation of His infinite justice, or the inalienable right of sovereign goodness to the be loved above all things, He first wills the permission of sin, and then wills to inflict the punishment for the sin in manifestation of His justice. The punishment is but a means of manifesting infinite justice, and it is a means that is not an intermediate end with reference to the permission of sin.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Non Nobis

Isn't Hell both a place (of eternal flames) and a state (of eternal separation from God), although the latter is the central component?  God only wills the punishment  on ACCOUNT of permitted sin, but doesn't He positively WILL punishment?  It surely seems from the Bible (and from the accounts of Saints) that punishing sin is something God DOES; He SENDS a man to Hell.  If a man separates himself from God, he will not only be eternally spiritually tormented (merely on account of the separation), but will also be positively punished by God: at least the PHYSICAL torment (which starts after the last judgement when we have our bodies) requires more than just separation.

This is the way I have understood Hell.  Otherwise the accounts of Hell in the Bible and elsewhere would seem to be purely metaphorical, which doesn't seem right.

Some say that Hell was created (as a place) only after and on account of Lucifer's sin.

Even if Hell is not exactly a place, it seems that it would be more than separation.                                                                                                                           
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

An aspiring Thomist

Quote from: Non Nobis on April 01, 2017, 03:00:34 PM
Isn't Hell both a place (of eternal flames) and a state (of eternal separation from God), although the latter is the central component?  God only wills the punishment  on ACCOUNT of permitted sin, but doesn't He positively WILL punishment?  It surely seems from the Bible (and from the accounts of Saints) that punishing sin is something God DOES; He SENDS a man to Hell.  If a man separates himself from God, he will not only be eternally spiritually tormented (merely on account of the separation), but will also be positively punished by God: at least the PHYSICAL torment (which starts after the last judgement when we have our bodies) requires more than just separation.

This is the way I have understood Hell.  Otherwise the accounts of Hell in the Bible and elsewhere would seem to be purely metaphorical, which doesn't seem right.

Some say that Hell was created (as a place) only after and on account of Lucifer's sin.

Even if Hell is not exactly a place, it seems that it would be more than separation.                                                                                                                         

God does positively will the punishment of the damned. I would encourage you read this article for more in depth reasoning as to why God does this:
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/11/does-god-damn-you.html?m=1


james03

Lethal,

Just contemplate on this sentence: "In hell there is perfect Justice".  (Actually there is probably even some Mercy shown, but don't know.)

So if you could think of hell being unjust in some way, then that condition does not exist, because in hell there is no injustice.   So unbaptized babies are not roasting in a pool of lava in hell, for example.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

lethalbean95

Quote from: james03 on April 02, 2017, 05:28:31 PM
Lethal,

Just contemplate on this sentence: "In hell there is perfect Justice".  (Actually there is probably even some Mercy shown, but don't know.)

So if you could think of hell being unjust in some way, then that condition does not exist, because in hell there is no injustice.   So unbaptized babies are not roasting in a pool of lava in hell, for example.

Haha Thanks James. Reading it that way does make the issue more understandable. This question isn't "challenging" my faith by the way. Just wanted some quick answers. It would be go to have in the future for Atheist Objections. Also, are you the same James from fisheaters?

james03

I'm the James formerly known as James02.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Jacafamala

Quote from: james03 on April 08, 2017, 11:44:51 PM
I'm the James formerly known as James02.

Was there ever a "James" or a "James 01"? C'est à vous?
"I shall die with weapons in my hands."
-St Therese of Lisieux