Interest in organizing small Vespers & Compline Groups?

[Kaesekopf]

Title changed to reflect content better.

Here's a blog post I found on New Liturgical Movement about starting an "Alpha and Omega" group, which is a small group, essentially, that meets to pray/sing Vespers, hang out, then close with Compline.

Start an Alpha and Omega Group!
DAVID CLAYTON

Meet for Vespers and Compline; plus a meal and conversation...and if you have a Dominican from the Western Province to hand all the better!

I remember that the Anglican Church in England designated the 1990s as the 'decade of Evangelism', with the goal of evangelizing the whole of the nation prior to the millennium. This seemed an absurdly optimistic goal to me, but I suppose if we remember that to evangelize means 'to show' people Christ, rather than to convert them ,then they might have come close, depending on what you believe showing people Christ means.

One thing that did come out of this energetic push to carry the gospel was the proliferation of  'alpha groups'. This was based upon a series of recorded talks about Christianity. Parishes set up groups in which people brought along food for a potluck meal, watched the video, and then had a discussion based upon it, perhaps guided by a series of questions that came with the video. I don't know how successful it was in converting people, but it was certainly successful at reinforcing the faith of existing Christians, which is a very good thing too. It was good enough for many other churches, including the Catholic Church, to follow the format and add additional videos that filled the gaps in the presentation of Christianity of the protestant Evangelicals.

My father ran one at his local Methodist church, and I attended on the evenings he lead. It was popular enough that they repeated for several years; what was interesting was that quite a number of people came to the alpha groups each year that they took place, even though the materials were repeated. What they enjoyed I think went far beyond what they were learning intellectually; it was the fellowship with like-minded people.


As far as I recollect, the hub of this evangelical (and Evangelical) push was Holy Trinity church in Brompton ('HTB'). In the minds of many, this is the epicenter of Evangelical Christianity in the UK. Readers in London will be aware that, ironically, it is situated immediately adjacent to a church which is at the other end of the spectrum, the traditional Catholic and very liturgically-minded Brompton Oratory. In fact, when I was living in London and attended the Oratory regularly, a group of us used to go and sit in the grounds of HTB on pleasant summer afternoons and have a picnic, after attending Solemn Mass at HMO (Holy Mother Oratory).

I do remember one of the Fathers at the Oratory joking that the name of the group - alpha - indicated that they had made a start but it was incomplete; he was referring to a verse from the Book of Revelations: 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.' The Oratory even started a series of talks of their own, and they called it the 'Alpha and Omega Group'. If there is one church in England that understands evangelization it is the Brompton Oratory, and they do not need to do it via organized talks or alpha-type sessions. Many, many converts have come to the Faith as a result of its mission of beautiful liturgy and spiritual direction from the Fathers. I am one of them.

I wanted to play my part in the evangelization of the Faith, and so all I had to do was invite people to attend Mass their with me - perhaps with the promise of beautifully sung polyphony, even if they didn't like the rest of it. A number of those converted, including one who was his death bed a few months later at the age of 40, dying of cancer (may he rest in peace.) All I had to do, I reckoned, was get them in there and the Fathers of the Oratory and the Holy Spirit would do the rest.

A beautiful Mass is always going to be what draws most powerfully to the Faith, but I think that there are things on the line of the alpha group that we could do to support that. My brother and his wife have just started a regular group in Berkeley, California, that meets for Vespers, a potluck meal and then Compline. It involves minimal organization and runs at a relaxed pace from about 6:30 pm to 9 pm. They just invite friends, and because they and they are lucky enough to have a room in their home sufficiently large to accommodate perhaps 20 people, they encourage friends to bring others along. This is not an official parish event, it's all done through their own networks. There is no need to have a priest involved, or to use church space if it is not available.


When Rob and Anna described the evenings to me, they said they were a great success. The great thing is that the liturgy gives the evening a purpose, inspires conversation if they need it, and engenders deep fellowship through the Holy Spirit. Also, there is enough repetition that people who are totally unused to what is going on will pick it up over the course of an evening and subsequent evenings (they meet fortnightly); and enough variation so that it distinguishes one evening from another and maintains interest. We have been encouraged in recent times by the popes since Pius XII (to my knowledge) to sing the Office in the domestic church, and here is a simple way that it is being done.

They sang in the vernacular, and were lucky enough on the first couple of occasions to have a local Dominican priest come along. The Western province of the Dominicans in the US has done a lot of good work in creating good and singable chant for the English language (apologies to other Provinces if I'm being unfair and you have contributed too!). Before he moved to where he is now, Rob used to live walking distance from St Albert's Priory in nearby Oakland, and whenever I stayed with him we used to go down there and pray with them. I made use of much of what I heard either directly or indirectly in the singing of the Office at Thomas More College of Liberal Arts. It was one of the recently ordained priests, Fr Dominic David, whom we used to see there when he was a student, who came to this evening.

He helped people by explaining what the Liturgy of the Hours is, and taught people the tones. Some had never done anything like this before in their lives, but they happily joined in once things got going. They have some simple Anglican style, four-part harmonies, and there were one or two others present who were experienced choristers who could easily pick up the simple harmonies. Rob told me that it was a wonderful thing to be part of this, especially since all those praying were also chanting.

Benedict XVI told us that the domestic church, i.e., prayer in the home centered on families, is crucial to the new evangelization, both because of the effect that it has on those who pray, and because their participation in families and in society in general helps to establish a 'culture of love.' (cf. Address to Plenary Assembly of the Pontifical Council for the Family, Thursday, 1 December 2011).

Provided that the ultimate purpose is the worship of God, so that the liturgy isn't instrumentalized, then fruits will ensue. Then, as Sacred Liturgy, our prayer is showing us the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end and, to quote Sacrosanctum Consilium, the source and the summit of all.

So perhaps you could think about this at home...start your own Alpha and Omega group.

[Kaesekopf]

I'm posting this article here because I think it is a WONDERFUL idea.  This is something concrete and objective that folks in parishes (especially you MEN!) can organize with a relatively "low" cost and a relatively high success rate.

What do you need?  A core committed group of people.  Some desires to put together a potluck.  Some half-ability to sing or recite music. 

You also don't really need to get the priests involved unless they are willing and able (and I imagine that, as the group grows, they'd be more willing and more able).  This also is a good way to glorify God (through the public prayer of the Church) and build a stronger parish/chapel community. 

Do you have any plans or desires to organize something like this for your area?  Does your chapel/parish already do something similar?  Do you think this is something that would be successful around you?

[Kaesekopf]

I think it's a sad, sad commentary on the state of traditional Catholicism when THIS thread - something useful, productive (and rather easy to do), and towards the greater glory of God - gets all of ZERO replies, whereas threads on women and women's conduct gross over 30 pages of replies.

But now it's a little less surprising that clergy of the 60s were able to overthrow the Roman Rite with that wretch the NO, and that the laity mostly went on along with it.

[Chestertonian]

i think this sort of thing would be great i could see it working in nyc would probably attract maybe the young urban single types

families.. I'm not sure.  it is often a big deal for us to get out of the house and to mass i can imagine it also being a big deal for families with lots of kids too

would have to make the trip home and then back and then home again or stay at church all day

if the community is local it has a good chance of working out better

[tradne4163]

I'm posting this article here because I think it is a WONDERFUL idea.  This is something concrete and objective that folks in parishes (especially you MEN!) can organize with a relatively "low" cost and a relatively high success rate.

What do you need?  A core committed group of people.  Some desires to put together a potluck.  Some half-ability to sing or recite music. 

You also don't really need to get the priests involved unless they are willing and able (and I imagine that, as the group grows, they'd be more willing and more able).  This also is a good way to glorify God (through the public prayer of the Church) and build a stronger parish/chapel community. 

Do you have any plans or desires to organize something like this for your area?  Does your chapel/parish already do something similar?  Do you think this is something that would be successful around you?

It's a bit tricky to adapt to a trad setting. Bear in mind that this revolves around a version of the office that is reviled by many traditional Catholics. The pre conciliar Office is available, but is rarely used by laity, even amongst us online users.

However, perhaps it is possible to organize it around a publicly recited hour (my parish does this almost daily for at least the smaller hours), and then meet up somewhere afterwards.

[Chestertonian]

the sspx publishes little booklets that are just compline if my wife and i pray any hours together we have been using that

you could also do the little office

[Joshua119]

I think it's a sad, sad commentary on the state of traditional Catholicism when THIS thread - something useful, productive (and rather easy to do), and towards the greater glory of God - gets all of ZERO replies, whereas threads on women and women's conduct gross over 30 pages of replies.

But now it's a little less surprising that clergy of the 60s were able to overthrow the Roman Rite with that wretch the NO, and that the laity mostly went on along with it.

I think many of us, self included, have lately become far more embroiled in drama then in true Catholic discussion. I have been looking for a group with which to practice Dominican spirituality. I know of a few people at my parish who might be interested, and will pitch the idea tomorrow.

[Kaesekopf]

I'm posting this article here because I think it is a WONDERFUL idea.  This is something concrete and objective that folks in parishes (especially you MEN!) can organize with a relatively "low" cost and a relatively high success rate.

What do you need?  A core committed group of people.  Some desires to put together a potluck.  Some half-ability to sing or recite music. 

You also don't really need to get the priests involved unless they are willing and able (and I imagine that, as the group grows, they'd be more willing and more able).  This also is a good way to glorify God (through the public prayer of the Church) and build a stronger parish/chapel community. 

Do you have any plans or desires to organize something like this for your area?  Does your chapel/parish already do something similar?  Do you think this is something that would be successful around you?

It's a bit tricky to adapt to a trad setting. Bear in mind that this revolves around a version of the office that is reviled by many traditional Catholics. The pre conciliar Office is available, but is rarely used by laity, even amongst us online users.

However, perhaps it is possible to organize it around a publicly recited hour (my parish does this almost daily for at least the smaller hours), and then meet up somewhere afterwards.

OK?  Just ... change from "Liturgy of the Hours" to the Divine Office.  If you're SSPX/diocesan, use the 1960 Office.  If sede, use the pre-60 office.  That's... not all that hard.  I imagine some chapels have some Libers, which will have the tones, etc in there for the Office.  Ask to borrow/photocopy them, or get the music off CCWatershed. 

So what if the pre-conciliar office is rarely used?  I know you pray the Office.  The Office used to be a major part of the liturgical life of a Catholic.  For the East, it still is.  Even the dreaded Council called for Sunday Vespers in the parishes.  Have some buddies over, pray Vespers, drink some beers and eat dinner, then close with Compline, and kick them out.  Easy peasy.

If you get a decent enough group, ask Father to open up the chapel at certain times, etc.

Why can't the laity lead on something like this?  Apathy?  Laziness?  That's the last sort of thing we need in this world now.  How many secularists go about working their asses off for their corporate job?  How many athletes train round the clock to compete in their competition?

And we can't ask Catholics to gather together to pray the liturgy of the Church?

Are modern Catholics just impotent, useless things?

ETA:  I'm not attacking you, tradne.  I'm just trying to get a discussion going on why the Office isn't a greater feature in our lay lives. 

[Kaesekopf]

I think it's a sad, sad commentary on the state of traditional Catholicism when THIS thread - something useful, productive (and rather easy to do), and towards the greater glory of God - gets all of ZERO replies, whereas threads on women and women's conduct gross over 30 pages of replies.

But now it's a little less surprising that clergy of the 60s were able to overthrow the Roman Rite with that wretch the NO, and that the laity mostly went on along with it.

I think many of us, self included, have lately become far more embroiled in drama then in true Catholic discussion. I have been looking for a group with which to practice Dominican spirituality. I know of a few people at my parish who might be interested, and will pitch the idea tomorrow.

I think, then, we need to step back and examine what use this place has.  If it's not conducive to spiritual growth and community, it's useless and needs to be tossed from ones life.  If only people had the passion for the Office as they did for the Office!  How different would our chapels, our communities, our cities be!?

+1 to you for Dominican.  Did you know CCwatershed put volume 2 of the Dominican Breviary (all English) online in PDF form?  You could start with that.... 

[Joshua119]

+1 to you for Dominican.  Did you know CCwatershed put volume 2 of the Dominican Breviary (all English) online in PDF form?  You could start with that.... 

No, I wasn't aware of that, but I'm glad to have the resource now  I pitched the idea of Alpha and Omega and a Society of the Holy Name to a couple of guys that I know, and it seemed to go over well, but we'll see if it really gets going. I ultimately would like to become a Third Order Dominican, but these two groups seem to be a good starting point, and less demanding for a newbie 

[Kaesekopf]

+1 to you for Dominican.  Did you know CCwatershed put volume 2 of the Dominican Breviary (all English) online in PDF form?  You could start with that.... 

No, I wasn't aware of that, but I'm glad to have the resource now  I pitched the idea of Alpha and Omega and a Society of the Holy Name to a couple of guys that I know, and it seemed to go over well, but we'll see if it really gets going. I ultimately would like to become a Third Order Dominican, but these two groups seem to be a good starting point, and less demanding for a newbie 

In the same boat as you are, lol.

[Chestertonian]

I'm posting this article here because I think it is a WONDERFUL idea.  This is something concrete and objective that folks in parishes (especially you MEN!) can organize with a relatively "low" cost and a relatively high success rate.

What do you need?  A core committed group of people.  Some desires to put together a potluck.  Some half-ability to sing or recite music. 

You also don't really need to get the priests involved unless they are willing and able (and I imagine that, as the group grows, they'd be more willing and more able).  This also is a good way to glorify God (through the public prayer of the Church) and build a stronger parish/chapel community. 

Do you have any plans or desires to organize something like this for your area?  Does your chapel/parish already do something similar?  Do you think this is something that would be successful around you?

It's a bit tricky to adapt to a trad setting. Bear in mind that this revolves around a version of the office that is reviled by many traditional Catholics. The pre conciliar Office is available, but is rarely used by laity, even amongst us online users.

However, perhaps it is possible to organize it around a publicly recited hour (my parish does this almost daily for at least the smaller hours), and then meet up somewhere afterwards.

OK?  Just ... change from "Liturgy of the Hours" to the Divine Office.  If you're SSPX/diocesan, use the 1960 Office.  If sede, use the pre-60 office.  That's... not all that hard.  I imagine some chapels have some Libers, which will have the tones, etc in there for the Office.  Ask to borrow/photocopy them, or get the music off CCWatershed. 

So what if the pre-conciliar office is rarely used?  I know you pray the Office.  The Office used to be a major part of the liturgical life of a Catholic.  For the East, it still is.  Even the dreaded Council called for Sunday Vespers in the parishes.  Have some buddies over, pray Vespers, drink some beers and eat dinner, then close with Compline, and kick them out.  Easy peasy.

If you get a decent enough group, ask Father to open up the chapel at certain times, etc.

Why can't the laity lead on something like this?  Apathy?  Laziness?  That's the last sort of thing we need in this world now.  How many secularists go about working their asses off for their corporate job?  How many athletes train round the clock to compete in their competition?

And we can't ask Catholics to gather together to pray the liturgy of the Church?

Are modern Catholics just impotent, useless things?

ETA:  I'm not attacking you, tradne.  I'm just trying to get a discussion going on why the Office isn't a greater feature in our lay lives. i think there is a potential for some laypeople to adopt the practice of praying the office... for others not as much mostly because the office is not required or even conpatible with many lay vocations particularly the old practice if tje office which is more demanding.. and also more fruitful sure

i don't know if it was ever traditional for families to pray it together for example even if some familiesmight be able to

the cfr priests do this thing called catholic underground in NYC it sounds kind of corny.,. it starts with Vespers then they have refreshments and music in the church hall

usually lame music but i can be a bit of a snob

then back in the church for compline

i used to manage it when i was healthy and could go up stairs

[Spera In Deo]

This would be almost impossible at my chapel, as most people drive at least 30 minutes or more to get there!  I am one of the few that live within 15 minutes driving time.

This thread and the one about 3rd orders have me thinking lately.

Now that I am divorced and have more time on my hands than i used to, I would like to really get myself settled in a regular routine for a prayer life.  I also would like to check into 3rd orders and their spirituality but am not willing to put up with a NO heavy group.  For instance, I checked out the carmelites when I was married, but the timing was all wrong.  I was chasing 4 little ones around and could not keep up with the obligations it entailed.  But they all used the LoTH, and now that I am trad, I can't stand the LoTH or the back and forth trying to keep up with 2 different calendars.

But I still feel drawn to the Carmelites.  My friend who is one, told me that they will not allow any exceptions from LoTH.  They did for a little while in the beginning, when the older members knew only the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, but will not allow any one to use it now. 

I loved Vespers at the one & only parish in the diocese that offered them Sunday nights before I became trad.

I am with KK and HK in thinking this ought to be part of our daily lives more.  But how?

[JubilateDeo]

Our Institute parish offers Vespers on Sundays already, and I think the priest leads it and it is chanted in Latin. 

We could easily spend all day at our trad chapel on Sundays.  Our community doesn't just show up at Mass and then leave... if you have a child in the Catechism program, you usually stay for Catechism.  And then at least once every few weeks, we have a luncheon after Mass that can stretch on for hours.  Even on days where there is no luncheon, we usually have coffee and baked goods downstairs.  My daughter spent about two hours after Mass just playing in the snow with the other children, only stopping inside to have hot chocolate today.  After sitting through Catechism class, and then High Mass, the kids have a lot of steam to blow off.  Then, they're about ready for a nap (and so am I). 

But if this were offered on a Saturday, I would absolutely come.  Then again, I live 15 minutes away from our chapel, so gas and driving time isn't as much of an issue for me as it is for some other families who travel a long distance.  This is why we have Catechism on Sundays, as well as any meetings for Rosary Altar Society, Holy Name Society, Legion of Mary, or the parish cleaning crew.  It's almost as if the entirety of parish life is squeezed into one day of the week.  Events on other days of the week have a few core attendees but aren't as well attended.  Although Friday Stations of the Cross gets plenty of people.

[Quaremerepulisti]

I think it's a sad, sad commentary on the state of traditional Catholicism when THIS thread - something useful, productive (and rather easy to do), and towards the greater glory of God - gets all of ZERO replies, whereas threads on women and women's conduct gross over 30 pages of replies.

But now it's a little less surprising that clergy of the 60s were able to overthrow the Roman Rite with that wretch the NO, and that the laity mostly went on along with it.

Your rant is unbecoming.

I would hardly take the number of posts on this topic or any other as indicative of the "state of traditional Catholicism".  Only a very small minority of traditional Catholics post here.  And it isn't surprising that threads on women's conduct should garner many posts, since the variance between what traditional Catholicism holds as proper and ideal conduct and between what secular society holds as such is much greater for women than men.  That's the real reason, not because there is necessarily something lacking in the Catholicism of those who post on that topic, as you are snidely implying.

Moreover, this type of thing is going to be unsuitable for many men, especially those with children.  It is better that they should perform some devotion which can include the children (such as the Rosary) as more suitable for their state in life.  Also, many men don't have much knowledge of Latin.  And if you think that one needs only a "half-ability" to sing or recite music in order to pull this off with the traditional Office, you frankly don't know what you're talking about.  Have you ever looked inside a Liber Usualis, I would like to know?  To sing Gregorian Chant correctly (especially without organ accompaniment) requires serious musical training, and significantly more ability than that necessary to sing "Faith of Our Fathers" on-key.