Message from 3rd Secret of Fatima Miracle

[Stubborn]

3rd Secret of Fatima - "In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved..."

Source 1: http://marienfried.com/catholic%20teachings/prophecy%20of%20apostasy.html
Source 2 (From Vatican): https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Would this not wipe out the Novus Ordo, SSPX, and all other traditional Catholic groups (except for 1 traditional Catholic group in Portugal) since the true dogma is only preserved there. I don't think the SSPX bases its positions off of any Church in Portugal. I'm not aware of any other traditional group doing the same. Could this mean that all of these churches are false and that the only true Church is in Portugal?

To me, the term; "the dogma of faith" is ambiguous, and actually makes no sense at all if we are to believe that Our Lady meant that the true faith will always be preserved only in Portugal - which is what many are led to believe it means.

Isn't the simple definition of "the dogma of faith" the same as saying "the binding doctrine of belief?"  What kind of statement is
"In Portugal, the binding doctrine of belief will always be preserved..."?

Personally, I do not know what to make of it, to me, I simply do not understand it, especially when, as far as I know, the NO is as much the rule in Portugal as it is everywhere else in the world.   

For me, I am completely content to leave it at "I do not understand it." 

[Mattchew83]

Don't look towards the schismatic Old Catholic Church for an answer to your questions.  The truth is we don't know the full truth about the 3rd Secret of Fatima because the Secret has not yet been revealed.  "In Portugal the Dogma of the Faith Will Always Be Preserved, etc."  The "etc." in itself is a big question.  Here's Father Gruner and John Vennari trying to answer your question.  If these two can't answer the question then nobody can, until the 3rd Secret is revealed.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYs2WwYwXNo[/yt]

It seems like the guy in the video is raising the same question that I am..."how was the true Dogma always preserved in Portugal?". It seems I am not alone.

[Mattchew83]

3rd Secret of Fatima - "In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved..."

Source 1: http://marienfried.com/catholic%20teachings/prophecy%20of%20apostasy.html
Source 2 (From Vatican): https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Would this not wipe out the Novus Ordo, SSPX, and all other traditional Catholic groups (except for 1 traditional Catholic group in Portugal) since the true dogma is only preserved there. I don't think the SSPX bases its positions off of any Church in Portugal. I'm not aware of any other traditional group doing the same. Could this mean that all of these churches are false and that the only true Church is in Portugal?

To me, the term; "the dogma of faith" is ambiguous, and actually makes no sense at all if we are to believe that Our Lady meant that the true faith will always be preserved only in Portugal - which is what many are led to believe it means.

Isn't the simple definition of "the dogma of faith" the same as saying "the binding doctrine of belief?"  What kind of statement is
"In Portugal, the binding doctrine of belief will always be preserved..."?

Personally, I do not know what to make of it, to me, I simply do not understand it, especially when, as far as I know, the NO is as much the rule in Portugal as it is everywhere else in the world.   

For me, I am completely content to leave it at "I do not understand it."

Forget about whether or not the true Dogma was ONLY preserved in Portugal or not. This is not important. What is important is that we can establish the fact that the true Dogma has been preserved in Portugal. That is all we really need to know. Now we can begin our search in a place where we know it exists for sure. Unless you do not want to put your Faith in a Marian Apparition. I explained why you should earlier in this thread.

[Mattchew83]

why did it not dawn on

ponder this yourself

I think you are accursed (something is not right about the way you think). I just showed you that I have pondered this. I will be trying to find this Church.

The funny thing is, your making a fool out of yourself in front of all these people. Anybody with half a brain would see what I'm talking about.

You're an idiot and your accusatory trope posting is so 2015 so find a new schtick

Isn't this slander (a mortal sin)? Your not looking so good yourself there bud.

It's not slander, he's calling you an idiot to your face. I must say, from what I've seen of you, I agree with him.

Why do you agree with him? Maybe I will see your point.

Would it not be the smart thing to do to identify all traditional Catholic Churches in Portugal and to examine their beliefs that way we know we have been exposed to the true Dogma. To me that is the intelligent thing to do. You seem to lack critical thinking skills.

If you are a (traditional) Catholic you belong to the same Church, no need to go find another one. Believing or assuming that the true Church is only found in Portugal based off of a personal (and incorrect) interpretation is weak thinking.

Edit: the Church's teachings have remained unchanged for all these years. Go read the Council of Trent, go read the encyclicals. Know your Faith, the Faith taught by Our Lord Jesus Christ through his Apostles and their successors.

Did I ever say that the true Church is only found in Portugal? I don't think I ever said that. I only said that it is possible.

No single man can possibly know every teaching of the Church. There must be another way to discern what the true Church is. I do have an idea as to how. We are living in a very questionable time. It is fair and reasonable to question every Church that claims to be Catholic. It is the intelligent thing to do.   It is reasonable to study every traditional Church in Portugal so that we can discern them. We know one of them is true.

If you don't want to be sure that you are in the true Church then go ahead and take your chances. I would consider what the Athanasian Creed states, "Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.". If you don't want to be sure of the true Dogma then go ahead. To me that is a bad sign about you.

[GiftOfGod]

Unless you do not want to put your Faith in a Marian Apparition.

He's free to do that. Some of us here avail ourselves of the right to not believe in private revelation but due to a recent forum rule addition we can't "doubt, oppose, or question" approved private revelations on this forum.

[Mattchew83]

Today I went to Church. After Church I raised the question to my priest..."how was the true Dogma of the Faith preserved in Portugal between 1965 and the time the SSPX arrived in Portugal?" My priest simply stated "It's not important". Of course, he never explained why its not important. He also preceded to say we basically shouldn't put too much stock into Private Revelations/Marian Apparitions. His name is Father Kimball and is not the ordinary priest at my parish. I go to Infant of Prague Mission in Bay City, Michigan.

I tried to explain to him why we should put our Faith into Our Lady at Fatima. There were thousands of witnesses at the Miracle of the Sun. There were at least 3 witnesses of the Marian Apparitions....the Bible says that only 2 or 3 witnesses are required for something to be considered a fact. I don't think there has ever been as much evidence as there was at Fatima compared to other Marian Apparitions. He still did not want to see the truth.

Lastly, he made the claim that the SSPX has preserved the true Dogma. I asked him if he could prove that. He could not prove that. Basically, he made a baseless claim which is a huge red flag to me.

I can't judge the SSPX off of 1 priest. But so far it's not looking good for them.

[Mattchew83]

Unless you do not want to put your Faith in a Marian Apparition.

He's free to do that. Some of us here avail ourselves of the right to not believe in private revelation but due to a recent forum rule addition we can't "doubt, oppose, or question" approved private revelations on this forum.

Are you ever going to explain why you question the Miracle at Fatima? IF you think we are being decieved don't you think we should all know?

[GiftOfGod]

Unless you do not want to put your Faith in a Marian Apparition.

He's free to do that. Some of us here avail ourselves of the right to not believe in private revelation but due to a recent forum rule addition we can't "doubt, oppose, or question" approved private revelations on this forum.

Are you ever going to explain why you question the Miracle at Fatima? IF you think we are being decieved don't you think we should all know?

due to a recent forum rule addition we can't "doubt, oppose, or question" approved private revelations on this forum.

[Stubborn]

3rd Secret of Fatima - "In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved..."

Source 1: http://marienfried.com/catholic%20teachings/prophecy%20of%20apostasy.html
Source 2 (From Vatican): https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Would this not wipe out the Novus Ordo, SSPX, and all other traditional Catholic groups (except for 1 traditional Catholic group in Portugal) since the true dogma is only preserved there. I don't think the SSPX bases its positions off of any Church in Portugal. I'm not aware of any other traditional group doing the same. Could this mean that all of these churches are false and that the only true Church is in Portugal?

To me, the term; "the dogma of faith" is ambiguous, and actually makes no sense at all if we are to believe that Our Lady meant that the true faith will always be preserved only in Portugal - which is what many are led to believe it means.

Isn't the simple definition of "the dogma of faith" the same as saying "the binding doctrine of belief?"  What kind of statement is
"In Portugal, the binding doctrine of belief will always be preserved..."?

Personally, I do not know what to make of it, to me, I simply do not understand it, especially when, as far as I know, the NO is as much the rule in Portugal as it is everywhere else in the world.   

For me, I am completely content to leave it at "I do not understand it."

Forget about whether or not the true Dogma was ONLY preserved in Portugal or not. This is not important. What is important is that we can establish the fact that the true Dogma has been preserved in Portugal. That is all we really need to know. Now we can begin our search in a place where we know it exists for sure. Unless you do not want to put your Faith in a Marian Apparition. I explained why you should earlier in this thread.

First, I would need to have explained what "the dogma of the faith" is. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception I understand, the Dogma of No Salvation I understand, but the dogma of the faith? Where is this dogma defined?

Next, I listened to about the first 30 minutes of Fr. Hesse on the subject and he sums up my own personal opinion in those 30 minutes, which is basically that I do not believe the Vatican's document is authentic:
[yt][/yt]

[Mattchew83]

3rd Secret of Fatima - "In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved..."

Source 1: http://marienfried.com/catholic%20teachings/prophecy%20of%20apostasy.html
Source 2 (From Vatican): https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Would this not wipe out the Novus Ordo, SSPX, and all other traditional Catholic groups (except for 1 traditional Catholic group in Portugal) since the true dogma is only preserved there. I don't think the SSPX bases its positions off of any Church in Portugal. I'm not aware of any other traditional group doing the same. Could this mean that all of these churches are false and that the only true Church is in Portugal?

To me, the term; "the dogma of faith" is ambiguous, and actually makes no sense at all if we are to believe that Our Lady meant that the true faith will always be preserved only in Portugal - which is what many are led to believe it means.

Isn't the simple definition of "the dogma of faith" the same as saying "the binding doctrine of belief?"  What kind of statement is
"In Portugal, the binding doctrine of belief will always be preserved..."?

Personally, I do not know what to make of it, to me, I simply do not understand it, especially when, as far as I know, the NO is as much the rule in Portugal as it is everywhere else in the world.   

For me, I am completely content to leave it at "I do not understand it."

Forget about whether or not the true Dogma was ONLY preserved in Portugal or not. This is not important. What is important is that we can establish the fact that the true Dogma has been preserved in Portugal. That is all we really need to know. Now we can begin our search in a place where we know it exists for sure. Unless you do not want to put your Faith in a Marian Apparition. I explained why you should earlier in this thread.

First, I would need to have explained what "the dogma of the faith" is. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception I understand, the Dogma of No Salvation I understand, but the dogma of the faith? Where is this dogma defined?

Next, I listened to about the first 30 minutes of Fr. Hesse on the subject and he sums up my own personal opinion in those 30 minutes, which is basically that I do not believe the Vatican's document is authentic:
[yt][/yt]

I have reviewed the first 30 minutes of the video, and have formed some opinions about what Fr. Hesse says. Please review my comments and tell me what you think. I also have a question or 2 that I would like to see if you can answer for me...

In the first part of the video, it seems he makes the claim that Our Lady prophesied that Russia will be consecrated. He then makes the point that this never happened. First of all, Our Lady never said that Russia would be consecrated for sure. She simply said, if Russia converts then this will happen...if not...then this will happen. It makes sense as to why She would specifically request Russia to convert since Russia was responsible for spreading errors and persecuting the Church. What not a better way to put a stop to this than to convert Russia? This was what Her heart desired, but she never prophesied that Russia would convert. Am I wrong in my interpretation of what this man is saying in the video?

In the video, he says that Sister Lucia could not have written the document with the message of Fatima because she did not sign it. This does not necessarily mean that she did not write it as he says. It was written in the early 1940's when we can be positive that we were dealing with the real Sister Lucia. There was no question of her being a fraud at this time.

I don't understand at all why he is complaining about the Angel with the flaming sword saying, "Penance, Penance, Penance". I don't see any problems with this claim. He questions it because he wonders why Our Lady even bothered to say this when we know how important penance is already (as if it were pointless for Her to say this). This doesn't prove that Our Lady never said this. She may have felt the need to remind us. Who knows. Also, He wonders why it was kept a secret. The fact that it has been kept a secret has nothing to do with Sister Lucia or her claims about Fatima. It has more to do with the Vatican. They should be questioned on this...not her.

He also questions the claim that Sister Lucia decided on when the Secret should be published and released to the public. He then makes the statement that Sister Lucia would not have decided on her own when the Secret should be published. I'm sure he can prove that one right? I don't think so. He makes a baseless claim here. He states that she was a Carmelite nun who would never have made such a decision as to when the Secret should be revealed. MY OPINION on that is that this is an extraordinary circumstance in which she could possibly make such a decision. But then he makes the point that during an interview with an Archbishop (Not sure exactly how to write his name) that she stated it was simply her intuition as to why the Secret should not be published until 1960. This is around 13:05-13:20 in the video. What I would like to know is when this interview with this Archbishop occurred. Was it during the time in which some people think someone was impersonating Sister Lucia? Then we can question "Sister Lucia's" claim that it was her intuition that told her this.

I'm not sure about his argument about how she uses the term "corpses" (15:00-18:00 in the video). I don't have a problem with how the Secret states,
"he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way"
If this were an error on Sister Lucia's part, it would be a minor error, in which case I still don't see how it disproves the Secret of Fatima. Does it have to be completely and perfectly theologically sound for it to be considered fact? Can it still be considered fact with minor errors? Should we expect that Sister Lucia be perfect in everything that she says (if she was really wrong in using the word "corpses")? Also, in the video, he keeps referencing "corpses" without mentioning "the souls". We are really only concerned about the souls of these corpses. Not the corpses themselves. That's why I think that if she was wrong then it would only be a minor error. Lastly, in the video (19:30-20:10 in the video) he implies that Sister Lucia was still alive at this time. Why did he not seek an answer directly from her on this or anything else that he is questioning about Fatima? Bad on his part. He is not concerned about whether Sister Lucia is a fraud at the time this video was made. He doubts the whole 3rd Secret in the first place. He should have sought answers to his questions which he does not indicate that he did in the first 30 minutes of this video. I'm guessing he never investigated anything but I could be wrong.

In 26:20-26:50 of the video, he raises the question "why would the secret, which supposedly references the assassination of the Pope be better understood after 1960? Why would people not understand this in the 19th century?"  I'm not sure how by answering these questions might disprove Fatima. He also states in the video that the 3rd Secret mentions a Pope being assassinated and then points out how this never happened. He mentions that this is what Pope Cardinal Ratzinger revealed (not sure if you should trust this Pope and what he says in the first place) about the 3rd Secret in 1984. He then goes on to say that Cardinal Ratzinger revealed, at first, that the 3rd Secret is about the end times and is religious prophecy, but then later stated that the prophecy in the 3rd Secret had been fulfilled in the past. Yet again, do you think we should really be listening to Pope Benedict if this is the case? It seems that if what this man says is true then Pope Benedict contradicted himself about the 3rd Secret. Either that, or the man in the video is wrong about what Pope Benedict/Cardinal Ratzinger said.

All that I can say is, the 3rd secret has not been fully revealed to the public at this time. We don't know if what Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict supposedly said is really true about how the secret mentions a Pope being assassinated. There is not enough evidence, in this case, to determine that the 3rd Secret is false like this man in the video is thinking. The man in the video tries to use what Pope Benedict says about the 3rd Secret to say that the 3rd Secret is false when he should not even trust what Pope Benedict says in the first place. When the 3rd Secret is finally revealed, we will then know for sure exactly what it says.

CONCLUSION: At this time, I do not trust Fr. Hesse and what he says.

[Stubborn]

Well, since I agree with him, I trust Fr. Hesse, but I would still like to know what exactly is "the dogma of the faith?"

[Mattchew83]

Well, since I agree with him, I trust Fr. Hesse, but I would still like to know what exactly is "the dogma of the faith?"

Where do you think I am wrong?

My thought is that the "dogma of the Faith" is all of the true/confirmed teachings of the Church. What else could it possibly be?

[Mattchew83]

I have done some research, and I have found a traditional Portuguese Catholic Church that has a location in Fatima, Portugal. They seem to reject Vatican 2 and are not affiliated with the SSPX. Here is their website...

https://doutrinacatolica-antes-vaticano2.blogspot.com/2014/05/lista-de-missas-tridentinas-em-portugal.html

I have sent them an e-mail and am still waiting for their response. If I do make contact, I will be asking them important questions like "what are your thoughts about the SSPX and other traditional "Catholic" groups and why?". Has your organization/Church been present and possibly preserving the true Dogma in Portugal, the whole time, since Vatican 2? Do you accept Vatican 2? I will be thoroughly investigating this Church and revealing my findings on this website.

[Stubborn]

Well, since I agree with him, I trust Fr. Hesse, but I would still like to know what exactly is "the dogma of the faith?"

Where do you think I am wrong?

My thought is that the "dogma of the Faith" is all of the true/confirmed teachings of the Church. What else could it possibly be?

It's not that I think you're positively wrong, I do not know one way or the other, for me it's not important enough to concern myself with is all.

Far as I know, there is no such a thing as "dogma of the faith", or if there is I have never heard of such a thing. The teachings of the Church, because they are truths, they are eternal and are preserved only within the Catholic Church. Portugal is as corrupt as the rest of Europe and the world, so as it stands, that term in and of itself is altogether meaningless. 

There are any number of holy things that could have been preserved in Portugal, but to say the dogma of the faith will be preserved makes no sense - particularly since Portugal is no less NO than the rest of the world and has been since V2 - just like the rest of the world.

This is a picture of one of the Churches there, does this reflect the dogma of the faith?......

[King Wenceslas]

You would think that after 104 years going on 105 years that people would pick up on that fact that Fatima is not a predictor of the future any longer. The threat of the Soviet Union ended in 1991. Russia today is a third world country with nuclear weapons. So just how relevant is Fatima any longer?

Wonder if we will still be having this debate in 2070?