Author Topic: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils  (Read 1528 times)

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Another excellent video from MHFM.

A devastating critique of the Eastern Orthodox's "reception theory" that does not differ, in essence, from Sola Scriptura or any other subjective methodology that robs the Church of Christ of Her divine authority to teach and govern the flock.

Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils

« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 11:27:59 PM by Vetus Ordo »
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2021, 02:49:09 AM »
Being devils advocate here, the Papacy doesn’t resolve the issue whatsoever considering that people can’t define what’s infallible and what’s fallible, if the Pope can contradict past Popes, if the Pope can contradict Scripture, etc.

The infallible “Chair of Peter” is nowadays very amorphous

The Papacy is equally as subjective as the amorphous concept of “Tradition” - let’s not also forget the irony of this video being made by Sedevacantists who recognize Papal authority until it debatably contradicted Papal authority

You can say that “well it’s less subjective considering that we can recognize councils” - ignoring the fact that many Catholics here don’t recognize Vatican II, it doesn’t mean much when the theological authority is still ambiguous.

Good luck explaining whether the death penalty is immoral or not, or whether adulterers May receive communion
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 02:52:35 AM by TheReturnofLive »
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2021, 09:00:10 AM »
The best way to resolve the disagreement would be a Joint Council of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Lyons II and Florence attempted such re-union Councils. A prospective Nicaea III has been planned for 2025, and there also are some efforts to commemorate 2033 in a big way by all Christian Churches together. I have hope for both gatherings. I pray Our Lord intervenes to make His Church One.

[Edit: See: https://conservapedia.com/Grand_Jubilee_Year_2033 and https://www.conservapedia.com/Essay:_Third_Ecumenical_Nicene_Council_2025]

Nice Video, Vetus. The Dimonds make a valid point, and Eastern Orthodoxy has not been able to overcome this "fatal flaw" for a long time. If Group of Bishops A and Group of Bishops B disagree, Orthodoxy has no built-in mechanism for the faithful to discern who is right. The question is more than theoretical, it is acutely practical. For Catholics, the answer is simple. The Pope and the Bishops with him are right.

Still, as Live points out, the Dimonds are SVs, and that weakens their argument. The best argument against SVism is Universal Acceptance. Since all the recent 6 Popes for 63 years have had UA, it follows that they are valid Popes, and the See of Peter hasn't been vacant for all this time. Other than that weakness, the arguments of the Dimond Brothers are generally good. I pray for Catholic-Orthodox Re-Union one day.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 09:18:46 AM by Xavier »
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2021, 11:18:05 AM »
Still, and for some reason, as Vetus points out, MHFM makes informative videos when it comes to heterodox religions (from their perspective)
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Offline Insanis

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2021, 12:20:20 PM »
EDIT: I decided not to have active discussions with non-Catholics on this forum.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 11:00:10 AM by Insanis »
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2021, 04:31:56 PM »
The best way to resolve the disagreement would be a Joint Council of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Lyons II and Florence attempted such re-union Councils. A prospective Nicaea III has been planned for 2025, and there also are some efforts to commemorate 2033 in a big way by all Christian Churches together. I have hope for both gatherings. I pray Our Lord intervenes to make His Church One.

This was already achieved at Lyons and Florence with the highest degree of solemnity.

However, after assenting to the decisions of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, the Eastern churches quickly turned their backs on it, just "as a dog that returneth to his vomit" (Pro. 26:11).
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 04:36:21 PM by Vetus Ordo »
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2021, 04:35:06 PM »
Being devils advocate here, the Papacy doesn’t resolve the issue whatsoever considering that people can’t define what’s infallible and what’s fallible, if the Pope can contradict past Popes, if the Pope can contradict Scripture, etc.

Regardless of the questions surrounding traditional Catholicism and the interpretation of Vatican II, the critique stands.

The Eastern Orthodox "reception theory" is an ahistorical and unworkable methodology that has essentially robbed the Church of God of Her authority to govern the flock.
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2021, 08:12:33 PM »
The Dimonds really aren't even Catholic
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2021, 08:13:37 PM »
Being devils advocate here, the Papacy doesn’t resolve the issue whatsoever considering that people can’t define what’s infallible and what’s fallible, if the Pope can contradict past Popes, if the Pope can contradict Scripture, etc.

The infallible “Chair of Peter” is nowadays very amorphous

The Papacy is equally as subjective as the amorphous concept of “Tradition” - let’s not also forget the irony of this video being made by Sedevacantists who recognize Papal authority until it debatably contradicted Papal authority

You can say that “well it’s less subjective considering that we can recognize councils” - ignoring the fact that many Catholics here don’t recognize Vatican II, it doesn’t mean much when the theological authority is still ambiguous.

Good luck explaining whether the death penalty is immoral or not, or whether adulterers May receive communion

There 277 infallible prouncements you can look the up.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2021, 08:49:29 PM »
The Dimonds really aren't even Catholic

In what sense?
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2021, 10:10:12 PM »
Being devils advocate here, the Papacy doesn’t resolve the issue whatsoever considering that people can’t define what’s infallible and what’s fallible, if the Pope can contradict past Popes, if the Pope can contradict Scripture, etc.

The infallible “Chair of Peter” is nowadays very amorphous

The Papacy is equally as subjective as the amorphous concept of “Tradition” - let’s not also forget the irony of this video being made by Sedevacantists who recognize Papal authority until it debatably contradicted Papal authority

You can say that “well it’s less subjective considering that we can recognize councils” - ignoring the fact that many Catholics here don’t recognize Vatican II, it doesn’t mean much when the theological authority is still ambiguous.

Good luck explaining whether the death penalty is immoral or not, or whether adulterers May receive communion

There 277 infallible prouncements you can look the up.

Really, there are 277 infallible pronouncements? What are they?
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2021, 10:16:59 PM »
The best way to resolve the disagreement would be a Joint Council of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Lyons II and Florence attempted such re-union Councils. A prospective Nicaea III has been planned for 2025, and there also are some efforts to commemorate 2033 in a big way by all Christian Churches together. I have hope for both gatherings. I pray Our Lord intervenes to make His Church One.

This was already achieved at Lyons and Florence with the highest degree of solemnity.

However, after assenting to the decisions of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, the Eastern churches quickly turned their backs on it, just "as a dog that returneth to his vomit" (Pro. 26:11).

I wouldn't be so hasty Mr. Judge, calling the spiritual life of the Catholic Church's sister churches* "vomit"

*See epistemological source of certainty, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000630_chiese-sorelle_en.html , citing epistemological source of certainty "Unitatis redintegratio" from the Ecumenical Vatican II Council, which is a source of epistemological certainty, as defined the Pope, the source of epistemological certainty via the Chair of Peter, the source of epistemological certainty

Why the fire and brimstone attitude? What, wrestling with the possibility that the truth may be in the conclaves of Slavs and Greeks who don't speak your tongue?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 10:20:16 PM by TheReturnofLive »
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Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2021, 10:30:19 PM »
The best way to resolve the disagreement would be a Joint Council of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Lyons II and Florence attempted such re-union Councils. A prospective Nicaea III has been planned for 2025, and there also are some efforts to commemorate 2033 in a big way by all Christian Churches together. I have hope for both gatherings. I pray Our Lord intervenes to make His Church One.

This was already achieved at Lyons and Florence with the highest degree of solemnity.

However, after assenting to the decisions of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, the Eastern churches quickly turned their backs on it, just "as a dog that returneth to his vomit" (Pro. 26:11).

I wouldn't be so hasty Mr. Judge, calling the spiritual life of the Catholic Church's sister churches* "vomit"

Rhetoric really is a lost art.

Quote
Why the fire and brimstone attitude? What, wrestling with the possibility that the truth may be in the conclaves of Slavs and Greeks who don't speak your tongue?

Vetus speaks both Greek and Russian.
 
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2021, 10:34:44 PM »
My sub-mediocre poetic grace does not render my point mute
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Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Eastern Orthodoxy's Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2021, 10:41:37 PM »
My sub-mediocre poetic grace does not render my point mute

No, but it may render it moot.
 
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