Atkins vs. Keto vs. Carnivore

[Greg]

I'd take the steak and the hate.

Everytime.

[Graham]

What has changed into those 40 years is a massive growth in the health food, private gymnasium, sports and leisure industries and people taking pictures of themselves every 5 mins.  HUGE amounts of advertising, photoshopping of images and a pressure from the media to feel inadequate in our bodies.  Are we less affected by this than teenage girls?

The cultural fascination with diet now is a union of opposites. One part unmistakable pushback against the effects of global consumerism with its love of the synthetic, the inexpensive, the convenient, and the exotic, another part stealthy re-insertion, into that pushback, of a somewhat less familiar type of global consumerism. And sadly you can't evoke the first without raising strong undertones (at the very least) of the second. It's all tinged, more or less, with bugman foodie-ism.

In some ways the direction that primarily gen x and millennial entrepreneurs have taken food culture is promising. Now, as compared to the 80s and 90s, most people know where to get their hands on local beef, bread, eggs, in-season produce, and even local booze. It's not just traditionalists, my non-Catholic parents were also ignorant of these things in the 80s and 90s, because the deracinated and synthetic capitalist food culture was already omnipresent. They stocked the pantry with cheerios and campbell's soups, and the fridge with stuff like margarine.

The new foodie consumerism is not as simple as forking out for cool kitchen gadgets and pretentious ingredients, which is why I think trads should be cautious about thinking they are above all this. I've mentioned before that I see diets like the WAPF diet as perhaps unwitting partners in health food consumerism, through the promotion of a culturally decontextualized "traditional diet" wherein e.g. white midwesterners are encouraged to include nixtamilized corn, coconut oil, sprouted quinoa, fermented kimchi or Norwegian cod liver oil. It forms a consumerist attitude whether or not one personally spends inordinate funds or wastes inordinate time on it.

[awkwardcustomer]

While trying to find a complete list of food references in the Bible for awkwardcustomer, I came across this quote from Proverbs 15:17

" It is better to be invited to herbs with love, than to a fatted calf with hatred."



Some of the various Protestant translations are hilarious.

"A bowl of vegetables with someone you love is better than steak with someone you hate."

"A vegetarian meal served with love is better than a big, thick steak with a plateful of animosity."

https://biblehub.com/proverbs/15-17.htm



Ready with the pertinent Bible text the next time someone tries to serve up platefuls of animosity for dinner.

But a fatted calf without the hate is preferable to herbs, is it not?

How about the Book of Daniel?  A friend of mine who turned vegan tried to use this text to persuade me that God favoured the vegan diet because Ch 1, v12 says the following:

12] Try, I beseech thee, thy servants for ten days, and let pulse be given us to eat, and water to drink: [13] And look upon our faces, and the faces of the children that eat of the king's meat: and as thou shalt see, deal with thy servants. [14] And when he had heard these words, he tried them for ten days. [15] And after ten days their faces appeared fairer and fatter than all the children that ate of the king's meat.

I argued that it was only because Daniel had been given the 'grace and mercy' of God that he was able to thrive on a diet of pulses.  In Babylon the king dined on meat and wine while the poor ate bread and cabbages.  The meat eaten by the king at court had been sacrificed to pagan gods which is why Daniel refused to eat it.  Instead he chose to eat the diet of the poor, which was bread and cabbages, and he survived and thrived because he had the grace and mercy of God. 

http://drbo.org/chapter/32001.htm

[Jayne]

The very first work given to man by God, his reason for being put on earth, is to garden. The very first command God gave Adam was to eat from the trees. If God has chosen this to be the very first human experience, then it must be extremely important and not harmful or unnecessary.

"And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it. And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat."

That's right.  I've often wondered about this.  And yet Our Lord ate fish and we have no record of Him eating fruit and veg.

And God commanded the Israelites to prepare a meal of lamb and bitter herbs?  Why not carrots?

Could it be something to do with the fact that the original instruction came before the Fall?  Although I can't imagine why that would be the case.

There is no question that things were different before the Fall.  For one thing, people were "naked and unashamed" before it,  while it became important to cover our bodies after.   Perhaps, just as nakedness changed its significance after the introduction of lust, eating fruit changed its significance after the introduction of gluttony.

Scripture indicates that God explicitly commands the eating of meat after the flood, in Genesis 9:

[2] And let the fear and dread of you be upon all the beasts of the earth, and upon all the fowls of the air, and all that move upon the earth: all the fishes of the sea are delivered into your hand. [3] And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you.

In the New Testament, we see an explicit command, not only to eat meat, but that the old distinction between clean and unclean no longer applies, in Acts 10:

[11] And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: [12] Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. [13] And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. [14] But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. [15] And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common.

It is quite difficult to make a good argument for veganism from Scripture, not that ever stops sola scriptura types from saying anything that comes into their heads.

[Jayne]

But seriously, what did Our Lord eat - bread, fish, honey, and figs?  And was the flour refined?  Did He ever eat lamb?

It is implied that Our Lord ate lamb, when it says that He kept the Passover.  That is part of the ceremony.

[Jayne]

While trying to find a complete list of food references in the Bible for awkwardcustomer, I came across this quote from Proverbs 15:17

" It is better to be invited to herbs with love, than to a fatted calf with hatred."

The implication here is that herbs, in themselves, are less desirable than the fatted calf, in itself.  Simply considered as food, the meat is better than the plant.  However, love is so much better than hatred, that the otherwise lesser food ought to be chosen.

[Jayne]

The new foodie consumerism is not as simple as forking out for cool kitchen gadgets and pretentious ingredients, which is why I think trads should be cautious about thinking they are above all this. I've mentioned before that I see diets like the WAPF diet as perhaps unwitting partners in health food consumerism, through the promotion of a culturally decontextualized "traditional diet" wherein e.g. white midwesterners are encouraged to include nixtamilized corn, coconut oil, sprouted quinoa, fermented kimchi or Norwegian cod liver oil. It forms a consumerist attitude whether or not one personally spends inordinate funds or wastes inordinate time on it.

It would not surprise me if consumerism, even if labelled as "tradition," were an influence in the foodie movement, since consumerism is so central in Western culture.  However, I doubt it is the only factor.  Another factor that is probably important is the aging population.  Baby boomers have reached the age when they are dealing with health issues and care about the impact of diet on health.

That sort of concern seems pretty normal.  It's like people with an old car paying more attention to maintenance than when it was new because it is necessary for the car to function.  One might use a higher grade of fuel, change the oil or get tune-ups more frequently, or develop some tricks for getting it started on cold mornings.  None of these things indicate a weird obsession with cars.  It is simply the nature of owning an old car that it requires a bit more thought and effort in order to make the car run.

Almost everyone I know around my age has had surgery and or is on medication.  Of course people in this situation will be interested in dietary interventions that can prevent these things.  I don't just pay attention to what and when I eat. I also exercise, am careful about having good sleep routines and incorporate stress management activities in my life.  Because I have an old body and just isn't going to work well if I ignore its needs.

[Jayne]

How about the Book of Daniel?  A friend of mine who turned vegan tried to use this text to persuade me that God favoured the vegan diet because Ch 1, v12 says the following:

12] Try, I beseech thee, thy servants for ten days, and let pulse be given us to eat, and water to drink: [13] And look upon our faces, and the faces of the children that eat of the king's meat: and as thou shalt see, deal with thy servants. [14] And when he had heard these words, he tried them for ten days. [15] And after ten days their faces appeared fairer and fatter than all the children that ate of the king's meat.

I argued that it was only because Daniel had been given the 'grace and mercy' of God that he was able to thrive on a diet of pulses.  In Babylon the king dined on meat and wine while the poor ate bread and cabbages.  The meat eaten by the king at court had been sacrificed to pagan gods which is why Daniel refused to eat it.  Instead he chose to eat the diet of the poor, which was bread and cabbages, and he survived and thrived because he had the grace and mercy of God. 

http://drbo.org/chapter/32001.htm

If vegans were right about plants being healthier than meat, then there would be nothing supernatural or indicative of divine intervention in what happened.  It is just what everyone would expect to happen if someone ate pulses instead of meat.  But, in context, this is being treated was something surprising that shows that God is involved.

In effect, your friend is trying to explain away a miracle with a natural explanation and saying it was the food itself rather than God that caused the result.  It is not showing the God favours veganism.  If it were true that this is the natural result of a vegan diet, it would be showing that God is unnecessary.

[queen.saints]

While trying to find a complete list of food references in the Bible for awkwardcustomer, I came across this quote from Proverbs 15:17

" It is better to be invited to herbs with love, than to a fatted calf with hatred."

The implication here is that herbs, in themselves, are less desirable than the fatted calf, in itself.  Simply considered as food, the meat is better than the plant.  However, love is so much better than hatred, that the otherwise lesser food ought to be chosen.

Yes

This can be the JKV translation.

[Markus]

Extravagant novelties

[Heinrich]

Extravagant novelties

What would you suggest for me and my goals? Are you a dietician/nutritionist or health science practitioner?

[Heinrich]

After 13 days, I just caved: I am having a bowl of (organic protein) Ramens with generous amounts of cheese and butter. During the time I ate nearly no carbs and much fat, I was feeling like I was 14 again. Really. I lost close to 10 pounds. I will get back on this again.

[Aeternitus]

I agree that it is not either/or and that a balance is ideal.  But where does that balance lie?

I think this is a subjective thing dependent on age, constitution/health, physical output, climate/seasons and spiritual reasons, etc.  In other words, the ideal balance differs from person to person.

And why are the food corporations, the UN, the WHO, and just about every government under the sun pushing plant based diets on everyone?  It can't be because they've suddenly seen the wisdom of the Church's beliefs about fasting and its benefits.  Maybe it's because a plant based diet makes people weak, sick and big pharma dependent.

I don't believe anything the food corporations, UN, WHO or any organisation pushes, simply because they say it.  I research it, providing it is relevant to me or someone for whom I am either responsible or with whom I am involved. The fact that they are pushing plant based diets year round, when the Church only required it for periods during the year, raises alarm bells for me anyway.  Their reasons behind this is another topic, but I can't help reflecting on when might an organisation, which subscribes to the maxims of a world that has departed from Christ, get anything completely right - ever?

I believe a purely plant based diet can make some, if not most people, deficient and ill. It made me ill after only two years.  The moment I reintroduced meat, I  regained my health. I was young at the time, and influenced by the propaganda.  Experience was my teacher!

Others, the minority, again, in my view, it seems to suit.  But in my findings, those whom it does seem to agree with, it only does so for a period of time and not forever.  I know vegetarians (not necessarily vegans) who whilst well, energetic, healthy and thriving in their twenties and thirties, became unwell and less productive as they got older.  Once they introduced meat into their diet, these problems were addressed.   I know others who have maintained it into their 60s and look so much older, as a result. And I know others who are pale, listless, continually tired, have no strength of mind or body and look like death warmed up in their twenties and thirties.   These obviously needed meat some time ago and ignored the warning signs for whatever reason.   I am yet to meet a healthy 70 or 80 year old vegetarian and yet I do know some incredibly active and vibrant meat-eating octogenarians!   

But the Catholic Church has always promoted fasting and abstaining from meat for periods.  Well, it's only since I've started eating a much more traditional diet heavily weighted in favour of animal foods, that the Church's fasting rules have meant anything to me.  Because when I was eating my previous diet I may as well have been fasting all the time since it contained even fewer animal foods than what the Church prescribed during periods of fasting.  Now, a fast really means something.

I agree.  Meat is protein, which satiates.  It is also full of B vitamins, which are required by the nervous system in particular.  Fruit and veg pass through the digestive process quickly, which is why they are used for cleansing purposes, to rest the digestion when it is clogged up and overloaded and to promote the elimination of toxins, via the bowel.   You will find that a large number of today's illnesses can be traced to this lack of regular, daily evacuation, which in turn creates a toxic body, manifesting itself in various types of health issues.  Not all, by any means, as the cause of some illnesses are environmental or genetic.  Even in these latter cases, the right diet can alleviate some symptoms, even though it may not provide a cure.

The 40 day Lenten fast is also a beautiful response to the yearly agricultural cycle, especially in temperate zones like Europe. Winter is spent keeping warm and eating the stores and supplies prepared during summer and autumn, so that by the time Lent comes around, there's practically no food left which makes it an ideal time for fasting, doesn't it.  The liturgical year and the agricultural year are very much in step.  But we've lost that sense of the seasons.

Again, I agree.  The Church is clever  .  We also want to eat more in winter to aid keeping warm.  Ever noticed that feeling of warmth that permeates the body after a good meal in winter?  It is more noticeable the colder one might be.  That is because food warms from within.  It also explains why those in tropical climes would not want to experience as much on a hot summer's day.  Or why in summer, we prefer a nice salad with our barbecued steak, or cold meat dish to moderate that warmth.   

Fasting and abstinence are excellent things, providing you're actually abstaining from something.  If you eat a predominantly plant based diet already, you might find that a challenge, as I did.  It turns out that people in the Middle Ages ate far more meat and animal products than the typical Westerner today.  A typical peasant family would have kept a pig, chickens and a cow for milk.  Salmon was plentiful and so was game.  The only restrictions were on hunting deer, since the hunt, or the chase, was usually a big occasion and an ideal training opportunity for knights etc, so the peasants had to stay away.

They also used herbs a lot, and fruit, and bread, and with the addition of all those animal foods, it sounds like a pretty balanced diet, not forgetting the spiritual and health benefits of all those fast days.  Pease pudding was also a favourite.

Again, I agree.  Herbs are my medicine and meat is a staple in my diet, though I don't eat it every day, which I find works for me.  I was raised on a meat diet as a child, so departing from it in my twenties for those few tortuous years, was an eye opener.  After resuming meat, in Lent one year I stopped eating it for the 40 days.  Even that made me unwell and Easter wasn't such a party! It was a choice at the time and it didn't interfere with my work or other duties, otherwise I couldn't justify it. I can't do it anymore.

And that is the distinction, I think, which needs to be made with regard to diet.  The ideal balance depends on so many factors and one size does not fit all.   Duties and one's ability to fulfil them, health, age, climate/season, the abundance of local produce, Church law and other spiritual reasons, etc., all combine to determine that balance.    Some may need more meat than others to function well and fulfil their duties; some may have health issues requiring limiting some meats or types of meat.  Meat broth is easy to digest, but not so a steak!  And some may wish to deprive themselves of it more than the Church requires in a spirit of penance.  The list goes on and on...   

[Philip G.]

After 13 days, I just caved: I am having a bowl of (organic protein) Ramens with generous amounts of cheese and butter. During the time I ate nearly no carbs and much fat, I was feeling like I was 14 again. Really. I lost close to 10 pounds. I will get back on this again.

It is only a three minute video addressing your recent experience.

[Jayne]

It is only a three minute video addressing your recent experience.

This video is a lot of nonsense.  Practically every claim in it is false.  It is completely unnecessary to consume carbohydrates.  The body needs only a small amount of glucose which is capable of producing from fat and protein using a process called gluconeogenesis.

It is somewhat true that many people lose their appetite when sick and stop eating which puts them into ketosis. This is a way for the body to heal itself since the body thrives on ketones.  It is patently absurd too conclude from this fact that being in ketosis is the equivalent of being sick and therefore that ketogenic diets make people sick. 

There are various ways to trigger ketosis in order to obtain its benefits.  Fasting (which is not the same as starvation) and very low carb diets are two of the main ones.

It is not unusual for people who stop eating carbs to crave them.  This is not a sign that they are necessary.  Rather, it is akin to people who have given up smoking or alcohol falling back into their bad habit.  Many people experience sugar and/or carbs as an addictive substance, which is not surprising since they have a comparable dopamine response.  Just like overcoming an addiction, one needs to keep trying and not get discouraged by failures.

There is a fair amount of individual variation in how much carbohydrates people can tolerate.  You may want to experiment with adding some back in after you have achieved your weight/health goals.  If so, the best time to eat them is immediately after strength training when your insulin sensitivity will be at its highest.