Author Topic: Please explain the details for mortal sin.  (Read 3234 times)

Offline Scowler

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2018, 12:28:03 PM »
Don't think so as is evident from your post. For example a law is in fact a law even if not enforced. It maybe ineffective but it is still a law.

And who should care if there is proclamation that something is a "law" if it is not enforced? In my world there is a difference between a "suggestion" and a "law". It is the enforcement which changes the "suggestion" into a "law". I prefer to use clear, unambiguous language, and differentiate between unequal categories... like "law" and "suggestion". Your mileage may vary, but that is your problem, not mine.

Theoretically there is still a "law" on the books (here in the US) which says that in front of every car there MUST be someone running, and waving a red flag to warn people about the impending danger of a car approaching. Somehow no one cares about this "law", especially not the "law-enforcement". Of course it is still good for something. The stand-up comedians love to make fun of these idiotic "laws" - and there are many of them. But no one will respect them as the "law of the land".

I think you need to learn some principles before you argue.

If you think that I am not qualified to "argue", then you are free to ignore my input. :) Or you can educate me, however education is more than just making nonsensical proclamations, like: "an unenforced law is still a law". :) You could start with showing how a suggestion can be construed to be a law or vice-versa. Because I consider them very different.
 

Online Miriam_M

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2018, 12:54:34 PM »
Law as a governing principle is not the same thing as a juridical law requiring "enforcement," although it may also be that. (Divine law, given to man, derives from natural law and does require justice.)

Conscience is how natural law is communicated within a human being.  It's the mechanism which God implanted in the human mind, regardless of epoch and culture.  Its accessibility, universality, and permanence are one of many sure signs of God's existence.
 
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Offline Sojourn

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2018, 01:10:40 PM »
He who goes against the Tao shall perish early
O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem!
 
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Offline nmoerbeek

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2018, 02:55:09 PM »
I am aware of the definition. The three factors are:

1) The act must be a serious or grave matter.
2) The person must be aware that the act is a grave matter.
3) The person must act with full consent.

The third one is self-explanatory. I have trouble with the first two ones.
Namely: what is a grave matter? Who decides if an act is a grave matter?
Also: What does it mean to be aware of this fact? Does it mean that the person agrees that the act is a grave matter?

Thank you for the explanations. :)

(Non-affiliated question: Is it possible to "indent" some text? The tags [indent][/indent] do not work.)

What is a grave matter?

An act which in thought deed or word that is a great offense against God or neighbor.

Who decides if it is a grave matter?

God, His Church,  and the conscience. God has listed off many Grave Acts that are forbidden through Apostolic Tradition of which the Bible is a monument.

What does it mean to be aware of this fact?  Does it mean that the person agrees that the act is a grave matter?

No, it does not mean that the person has to agree. Once we have developed a hardened heart we can fall into numerous sins and not feel guilt or justify ourselves, and if we receive Grace later we will be able to be aware of the offense and repent of it.

Moral Theology is as simple or complex as a person wants to make it. Our Lord while He was here said this: "Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets." St. Matthew 37-40

In the end of the day we are all responsible for our own souls and have an obligation to search for the truth, form our consciences according to it, and live by it.  God will bring such a person who seeks the truth to Him if they continue to show fidelity to the truth they are exposed to.

 
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Offline Scowler

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2018, 04:23:46 PM »
Law as a governing principle is not the same thing as a juridical law requiring "enforcement," although it may also be that. (Divine law, given to man, derives from natural law and does require justice.)

A law without enforcement is only a suggestion. I am not aware of any divine law, issued by God personally to everyone. Many people assert that they are the "holders" of this law, but they have no evidence for this assertion.

Conscience is how natural law is communicated within a human being.  It's the mechanism which God implanted in the human mind, regardless of epoch and culture.  Its accessibility, universality, and permanence are one of many sure signs of God's existence.

Actually, the lack of them is a serious evidence against God's existence.

The conscience of different people in different cultures are very different. By the way, the expression of "implanted into the human mind" sounds suspiciously like brain-washing. :) Not that I have anything against a benevolent "brainwashing"; if only God would have created everyone without malice, malevolence, ill intentions, etc... how wonderful it would be. You may try to counter this by saying that we ALL know what the "natural law" is, but we lie to ourselves for whatever reason (maybe because we want to perform some sin). That would be a very bad argument, for obvious reasons. (It is a serious insult to accuse someone of dishonesty).

As a matter of fact, just check out the different attitude of Catholics in the US. A very sizeable percentage of them has no problem with pre-marital sex, or contraception, or homosexual sex. Their conscience accepts all these activities.

My personal conscience would never "allow" me to torture others, but at the same time my conscience is perfectly fine with non-procreative sex... oops... come to think of it, I am still waiting for the next installment of Daniel's argument - based upon fully rational ground. :)
 

Offline Scowler

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2018, 04:37:28 PM »
What is a grave matter?
An act which in thought deed or word that is a great offense against God or neighbor.

Unfortunately God gives no sign of being offended. So we cannot know if an act was "offensive" to him. As for the "neighbors"... different people get offended by different acts, so we are left in the "dark" here, too.

Who decides if it is a grave matter?
God, His Church,  and the conscience. God has listed off many Grave Acts that are forbidden through Apostolic Tradition of which the Bible is a monument.

As I said, God is silent, so his preferences are unknown. The church is only an authority for Catholics, not others. So that is not helpful either. And our conscience is different from person to person.

What does it mean to be aware of this fact?  Does it mean that the person agrees that the act is a grave matter?
No, it does not mean that the person has to agree. Once we have developed a hardened heart we can fall into numerous sins and not feel guilt or justify ourselves, and if we receive Grace later we will be able to be aware of the offense and repent of it.

There is a problem here. If I am not aware that an act was a "grave matter", then I cannot be held "criminally" responsible for committing it. The third "leg" was that one must be aware and willing to commit the act.

 

Offline nmoerbeek

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2018, 06:30:50 PM »
What is a grave matter?
An act which in thought deed or word that is a great offense against God or neighbor.

Unfortunately God gives no sign of being offended. So we cannot know if an act was "offensive" to him. As for the "neighbors"... different people get offended by different acts, so we are left in the "dark" here, too.

Who decides if it is a grave matter?
God, His Church,  and the conscience. God has listed off many Grave Acts that are forbidden through Apostolic Tradition of which the Bible is a monument.

As I said, God is silent, so his preferences are unknown. The church is only an authority for Catholics, not others. So that is not helpful either. And our conscience is different from person to person.

What does it mean to be aware of this fact?  Does it mean that the person agrees that the act is a grave matter?
No, it does not mean that the person has to agree. Once we have developed a hardened heart we can fall into numerous sins and not feel guilt or justify ourselves, and if we receive Grace later we will be able to be aware of the offense and repent of it.

There is a problem here. If I am not aware that an act was a "grave matter", then I cannot be held "criminally" responsible for committing it. The third "leg" was that one must be aware and willing to commit the act.

 I don't disagree with some of your statements like our consciences are different from person to person.  If you have come here to ask questions about what we confess as Catholics it would probably be best to ask me more questions, I don't want to have to argue about things we might agree on or points that you are willing to grant, like for example a Catholic Christian can reliable use the sources of Revelation to form his own conscience as to what is and is not a mortal sin.

Would you be willing to rephrase your statements in the form of a question?

"Let me, however, beg of Your Beatitude...
not to think so much of what I have written, as of my good and kind intentions. Please look for the truths of which I speak rather than for beauty of expression. Where I do not come up to your expectations, pardon me, and put my shortcomings down, please, to lack of time and stress of business." St. Bonaventure, From the Preface of Holiness of Life.


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http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/

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Offline Scowler

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2018, 09:15:37 PM »
I don't disagree with some of your statements like our consciences are different from person to person.  If you have come here to ask questions about what we confess as Catholics it would probably be best to ask me more questions, I don't want to have to argue about things we might agree on or points that you are willing to grant, like for example a Catholic Christian can reliable use the sources of Revelation to form his own conscience as to what is and is not a mortal sin.

Of course I would not dream of questioning what your conscience tells you, or what sources you use to form your conscience. :) The question is how can we come to an agreement? Is there some common ground which we could use as a common platform to get to an agreement? I hope it is possible. My reason for this hope is that there are some areas where we can find agreement, even if we start from a different point of view. For example we can agree that gratuitous and wanton slaughter is "bad". So maybe there are other parts of behavior where we can reach the same conclusion, even if we start from a different point of view. Of course "revelation" means nothing for me, since there is no rational ground to assume that it happened. Daniel was kind enough to start a conversation, but he concentrated on the "children", which is just a subset of the problem. I am waiting to see his next reply. Maybe you would prefer to review what we said to each other, so far.

Would you be willing to rephrase your statements in the form of a question?

Which statements?
 

Offline james03

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2018, 09:39:51 PM »
Scowler, I'll be blunt.  You are too sophmoric and don't have even the basics to talk to.  You are basically stuck in the bronze age.

Cause and effect are not a given, but a result from more fundamental concepts that you are ignorant of.  Asking for "proof" of God actually proves God, but you won't understand that.

Final Cause?  Does a "heart" exist?

We'll start here.  Do you believe in the immaterial world, that immaterial things exist?
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline Scowler

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2018, 10:41:31 PM »
Scowler, I'll be blunt.  You are too sophmoric and don't have even the basics to talk to.  You are basically stuck in the bronze age.

Well, maybe you think that you WERE "blunt", though I would call your words rude, insulting, offensive and impolite. But I will cut you some slack, just this once.

Cause and effect are not a given, but a result from more fundamental concepts that you are ignorant of.  Asking for "proof" of God actually proves God, but you won't understand that.

No, I would not. Just like I would not "understand" that asking for proof for the existence of leprechauns "proves" the existence of leprechauns. I would need a tad more than that as a "proof". Come to think of it, I would rather have evidence beyond any reasonable doubt, just like in any important case. Because the word "proof" is used in an axiomatic, deductive system. In an open, inductive system the correct word is evidence - preferably overwhelming evidence.

Final Cause?  Does a "heart" exist?

"Final cause" is a useless, Aristotelian concept. Did you know that Aristotle surmised that the brain was just a cooling organ to regulate the temperature of blood? That pretty much sums up his competence about the human body and mind. But, yes, a "heart" exists. Hearts are organs, which perform the important task of circulating blood. Look it up under "cardio-vascular" systems if you don't know what it means. Some poets like to use the word "heart" as a substitute for emotions, but that is simply a boring synonym or euphemism. Does not deserve to be taken seriously.

We'll start here.  Do you believe in the immaterial world, that immaterial things exist?

Sure. There are concepts and ideas, which are immaterial "things". Of course they are only mental constructs, they do NOT exist as mind-independent ontological objects. Concepts and ideas are physically "inert", they cannot interact with the actual, physical reality.
 

Offline james03

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2018, 09:31:56 AM »
Quote
Well, maybe you think that you WERE "blunt", though I would call your words rude, insulting, offensive and impolite. But I will cut you some slack, just this once.
Crap, a millinneal on top of a heathen.  I guess I'm supposed to ask you for your preferred pronouns and what you self identify as.  I self identify as a hydrotreating catalyst pellet.

No, I was blunt. Period.  My words were carefully chosen.  You have a heathen mentality out of the bronze age, for you clearly haven't discovered Aristotle yet or you would not be asking for physical proofs of God.

Quote
Just like I would not "understand" that asking for proof for the existence of leprechauns "proves" the existence of leprechauns.
And you prove it again.  A leprechaun is a material little man, so theoretically I can take a picture of him.  God is immaterial.  He is the First Cause.  We give "First Cause" a name, God.  (Yes, we can get into Christianity and the Incarnation, but let's start with basic theism).
Quote
"Final cause" is a useless, Aristotelian concept. ..... But, yes, a "heart" exists. Hearts are organs, which perform the important task of circulating blood.
Sophmoric people can be counted on to self-contradict.  So which is it?  Is Final Cause a useless concept, or is it important, because performing a task is the Final Cause.  99% of heathens are sophmoric.  That is why Alex Rosenberg's An Atheist's Guide to Reality was so refreshing, at least he tried to be consistent and would deny that the heart exists.  He's insane, and of course he fails in the end to be consistent by the act of his writing his book as he is conveying immaterial information to people who can have intentional thoughts about the book, a process pregnant with Final Cause.
Quote
Sure. There are concepts and ideas, which are immaterial "things". Of course they are only mental constructs, they do NOT exist as mind-independent ontological objects. Concepts and ideas are physically "inert", they cannot interact with the actual, physical reality.
  I am not a dualist, but a Greek Realist.  Now the immaterial interacts with the material all the time.  The immaterial information of DNA defines life.  The immaterial "red" interacts with the apple.  But "red" resides in the mind (not the brain).  You can view "red" right now even though there is no "red" thing physically present.

So you ask for physical proof that God exists.  Can you give me physical proof that "red" exists?  All you have are bit patterns in your brain set by neurotransmitters and receptors.  That's not red.  If I could enter your mind (not your brain) I might be surprised to see the green falling characters out of the matrix when you look at a "red" apple.  You'd say, "There is red, on the apple".  I'd say "Where?  All I see is green." And you'd say, "What green?  The "red" is right there".  You can't prove to me that "red" exists.

And it gets even worse.  Forget physical proof that "red" exists.  You can't even give me an existence theorem that red can exist, unless you start with Plato and Aristotle.

God is far closer to "red" than an old dude with a white beard.  Red has no time and no place.  From an Aristotelian perspective red can be in your mind and my mind at any time or any place.  It just is.  Like God.
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Online Miriam_M

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2018, 01:17:05 PM »
I would call your words rude, insulting, offensive and impolite.

...as opposed, of course, to your calling us "brainwashed," etc.

Newsflash, OP:  You are on a Traditional Catholic discussion forum, not a Skeptic's discussion forum (ancient philosophical school of Skepticism) or an Atheism discussion forum.  Take it as axiomatic that, as individuals, our faith in our Church and in God Himself is not open to your approval or agreement.  Take it also as axiomatic that we are certain that our faith and our reason are not at odds with each other.  I'm sure that several of us would be willing to engage any truly interested and open-minded inquirer regarding how that faith and reason are complementary instead of contradictory.

Ultimately, the quality of faith is a grace (a gift).  It is one of the three theological virtues (along with hope and charity).  Unbelievers can receive that faith by God's grace, assuming a sincere openness, and of course this happens all the time:  unbaptized seekers and doubters investigate, discuss, listen, read, and are eventually moved (often) to seek more formal instruction, and in the process, the grace of inward certitude (faith) accompanies that journey toward their baptism and reception into the true Church.

However, part of all of that inquiry is understanding certain premises.  Catholic theology cannot be properly understood without being grounded in the foundation for that, which is philosophy.  The theology is built on the philosophical premises of truth, essence, being, absolutes, etc.  Hence the introduction by others of some of those concepts.

 
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Offline Scowler

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2018, 04:55:08 PM »
...as opposed, of course, to your calling us "brainwashed," etc.

Well, I did not call anyone "brainwashed". I only said that your words: "God IMPLANTED our conscience LOOKS like a brainwashing process", and that is not rude at all. Something "looks like" is worlds apart from asserting that "it is". What was that "etc."? I am genuinely interested.

Newsflash, OP:  You are on a Traditional Catholic discussion forum, not a Skeptic's discussion forum (ancient philosophical school of Skepticism) or an Atheism discussion forum.  Take it as axiomatic that, as individuals, our faith in our Church and in God Himself is not open to your approval or agreement. 

Obviously. No one said otherwise.

Take it also as axiomatic that we are certain that our faith and our reason are not at odds with each other.  I'm sure that several of us would be willing to engage any truly interested and open-minded inquirer regarding how that faith and reason are complementary instead of contradictory.

What you believe may be axiomatic for you, but the truth-value of your belief (reason and faith are not contradictory) is not. Faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see" - and that is anything but rational. I have confidence in anything for which there is "overwhelming evidence", or "evidence beyond any reasonable doubt". By the way, that is what I am attempting to do in this tread - namely to see if your belief (specifically concerning the extra-marital sex - fornication) can be established on a fully rational ground. I am aware of the theological arguments, and I am not interested to re-hashing those. For the time being only Daniel started to give a response which was supposed to be independent from revelation or faith, and therefore purely rational. His response was interesting, yet incomplete, lacking to touch upon the pertinent parts of the question. Hopefully he, or you, or anyone else will be willing to participate in the discussion. Maybe you?

Of course no one is "forced" to participate, and I am grateful to those who wish present rational arguments. If no one is interested to participate, that is also fine. I am especially amused by being "told off" by someone who cannot even spell several words correctly. "Sophmoric", anyone? "millinneal"? What language is that?

As for having studied ancient philosophers (like Aristotle or Plato), I had some high level classes in college... over 50 years ago. But I was not impressed by them at that time, and not impressed today.


 

Online Miriam_M

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2018, 05:17:25 PM »

What you believe may be axiomatic for you, but the truth-value of your belief (reason and faith are not contradictory) is not. Faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see" - and that is anything but rational. I have confidence in anything for which there is "overwhelming evidence", or "evidence beyond any reasonable doubt".

Even Atheists agree that there are certain irrational obstacles to their stubborn disbelief, such as the concept that the universe created itself.  (There was no Prime Mover, etc.)  In admitting this, they are de facto asserting that an original Creator is actually much more rational than mere random forces and spontaneous generation.

You and I take uncountable things on faith ("beyond a reasonable doubt") in our everyday lives, in the natural and worldly spheres.  And many of those faith-filled suppositions cannot be seen, such as the certitude that our close relations continue to love us even though often we behave in an unlovable fashion.  (It is "more rational" that they stop loving us, yet, crazily, they do not stop.) 

So it is inconsistent not to demand certitude (prior confirmation) of some unseen realities -- not having to do with the divine -- but to insist on certitude only for divine realities.

In any case, while some people have arrived at belief supposedly "strictly" through reason, for most people, a small to a significant aspect of their belief in God is, as I said, enhanced by faith.  By definition, faith is not certitude.
 

Offline james03

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Re: Please explain the details for mortal sin.
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2018, 06:08:40 PM »
Quote
Faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see" - and that is anything but rational.
LOL.  You believe in atoms.  Your "overwhelming evidence" is merely your faith in scientists, because you have never seen an atom.

Due to the only sane system that explains reality, like the immaterial world, we have faith in the bible and the Church.

Is it a "mortal sin", or at least evil, to rape little boys and mutilate women?  Since moslems are being selected by evolution to spread their genes, you are forced to say no.  That is why we can't take you seriously. 
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."