Everybody here knows Francis doesn't believe in God or in anything supernatural

Started by Prayerful, August 14, 2018, 04:03:59 PM

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Miriam_M

Quote from: Larry on August 15, 2018, 08:50:00 PM
There's nothing that anyone could write that would make me dislike that clown more than I do now.

I have probably reached the same saturation point -- or did a long time ago, actually. 

Kaesekopf

Why do people still care what the Argentine has to say?

It's clear where he stands.  Anything further is a waste of effort. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Miriam_M

Quote from: Kaesekopf on August 15, 2018, 11:48:01 PM
Why do people still care what the Argentine has to say?

It's clear where he stands.  Anything further is a waste of effort.

I don't think people here are disagreeing with you.  Some of us merely reached saturation point long ago --like 2013-- and would be shocked if that leopard changed his spots.

Sojourn

The only question is why god would offer so much protection to the petrine office and then permit this man to ascend the seat.
O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem!

Kirin

It shouldn't be as interesting to watch, but watching Catholics accuse the supreme chosen agent of God currently on earth hand picked and protected via the Holy Spirit of heresy and/or atheism be like



Benedixt IX sold the petrine office twice, and in a list of "odd things Popes have done" this is little league stuff.

Sockpuppet

Quote from: Sojourn on August 17, 2018, 09:50:52 AM
The only question is why god would offer so much protection to the petrine office and then permit this man to ascend the seat.

Many Popes have cared more about what the world thinks about them than about the faith.

In the middle ages they cared about what the Kings of Europe thought of them. Today it's the New York Times editorial page.

Maximilian

Quote from: Kirin on August 17, 2018, 10:02:12 AM

Benedixt IX sold the petrine office twice,

Fascinating story. Oh the things that people get up to when they're infallible!

Like the Great Western Schism, here we have 4 validly elected popes at the same time. None apparently, are considered anti-popes.

Also notable is that the situation was resolved not by the Church, but by the Emperor.

Pope Benedict IX

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_IX

Pope Benedict IX (Latin: Benedictus IX; c. 1012 – c. 1056), born Theophylactus of Tusculum in Rome, was Pope on three occasions between October 1032 and July 1048. Aged approximately 20 at his first election, he is one of the youngest popes in history. He is the only man to have been Pope on more than one occasion and the only man ever to have sold the papacy.

Benedict was the nephew of his immediate predecessor, Pope John XIX. In October 1032, his father obtained his election through bribery. However, his reputed dissolute activities provoked a revolt on the part of the Romans. Benedict was driven out of Rome and Pope Sylvester III elected to succeed him. Some months later, Benedict and his supporters managed to expel Sylvester. Benedict then decided to abdicate in favor of his godfather, the Archpriest of St. John by the Latin Gate, provided he was reimbursed for his expenses. Gratian then became Pope Gregory VI. Benedict subsequently had second thoughts and returned, and attempted to depose Gregory.

A number of prominent clergy appealed to Henry, King of the Germans to restore order. Henry and his forces crossed the Brenner Pass into Italy, where he summoned the Council of Sutri to decide the matter.

Benedict, Sylvester, and Gregory were all deposed. Henry then nominated the bishop of Bamberg, Suidger von Morsleben, who was consecrated and became Pope Clement II in December 1046, thus clearing the way for Henry to be immediately crowned Holy Roman Emperor by a Pope recognized as legitimate.

Quote from: Kirin on August 17, 2018, 10:02:12 AM

and in a list of "odd things Popes have done" this is little league stuff.

No, you are making a category error by mixing in things like selling the papacy with other things that are the subject of this thread, i.e. believing in the supernatural.

Benedict IX might have been filled with greed and ambition, but he at least believed the Catholic Faith. Can we say as much about the current occupants of episcopal seats? That is the question under discussion.

"Benedict IX was buried in the Abbey of Grottaferrata c. 1056. According to the abbot, he was penitent and turned away from his sins as pontiff."

Will we see something similar from Francis?

Sockpuppet

All of Benedict IX's actions as pontiff show he cared little for the Catholic faith.

longstrangetrip5

Quote from: Sojourn on August 17, 2018, 09:50:52 AM
The only question is why god would offer so much protection to the petrine office and then permit this man to ascend the seat.
yes, very good Q

but in my experience (and what I have seen in the world...) God seems to  permit quite a lot of evil. I think he wants to replicate the life of Job in all  Christians's lives...

or the life of Christ...

hmmm...

Jesus tells us to pick up the cross and carry it... and of course no one can say to Him: You don't know what it's like...



+

Kirin

Is it a category error Maximilian? While it is possible that Theophylactus/Benedict IX felt genuine remorse at the end of his life, he clearly didn't believe in Catholic teaching when he sold the holy office not once, but twice. While I suppose it is possible to believe adultery is wrong and yet in the heat of passion still engage in an affair if you really believed you were the mouthpiece of God on earth, would you really sell those powers to someone else; again twice?

This again also being an office which is supposedly directly protected and upheld by God and whom the Papal elections for it are guarded by the Holy Spirit, and the fact the situation needed a temporal prince to intervene and set things straight says nothing reassuring for belief in the divine nature of the office.

Maximilian

Quote from: Kirin on August 17, 2018, 05:30:03 PM

Is it a category error Maximilian?

Yes.

Quote from: Kirin on August 17, 2018, 05:30:03 PM

While it is possible that Theophylactus/Benedict IX felt genuine remorse at the end of his life, he clearly didn't believe in Catholic teaching when he sold the holy office not once, but twice. While I suppose it is possible to believe adultery is wrong and yet in the heat of passion still engage in an affair if you really believed you were the mouthpiece of God on earth, would you really sell those powers to someone else; again twice?

Oh yes. "The love of money is the root of all evil." People who believe in God will do terrible things for the sake of money. More so than lust, generally speaking.

Just like in "The Godfather" (and the people in The Godfather share a lot in common with the people in the Benedict IX story), the men are busy with their day-to-day business of breaking the law and killing people, but they still want to be sure that the women are praying rosaries for them. But Francis doesn't even want us reactionaries to pray rosaries for him.

Quote from: Kirin on August 17, 2018, 05:30:03 PM

This again also being an office which is supposedly directly protected and upheld by God and whom the Papal elections for it are guarded by the Holy Spirit, and the fact the situation needed a temporal prince to intervene and set things straight says nothing reassuring for belief in the divine nature of the office.

Another category error. The question is, "What is really going on in their hearts?" It's not a question of doctrine about the institution.

On the other hand, one might ask, "If the pope is divinely protected from error, then how can it be possible for God to allow the hearts of these infallible men to fall to such a state where they will:

1. Sell the petrine office.
2. Buy the petrine office.
3. Kiss the Koran.
4. Invite voodoo witch doctors to Assissi for common worship.
etc. etc.

Quote from: Kirin on August 17, 2018, 05:30:03 PM

the fact the situation needed a temporal prince to intervene and set things straight

This has always been the case that the Church needs the intervention of temporal rulers to set things straight, going back to the days of Constantine. The emperor in the 11th century who straightened out the situation with 4 simultaneous popes was the rule rather than the exception.