Author Topic: Clarification, please.  (Read 1219 times)

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2018, 06:15:09 PM »
Every attempted proof for a paranormal has been shown to be a fake. Not necessarily by an everyday observer, but by a trained stage magician. Now that does not "prove" the nonexistence of the paranormal. After all nonexistence cannot be proven except in an axiomatic system (we can prove that there cannot exist two integers, the ratio of which precisely equals the square root of two), but it is a reasonable stance that the assumption of the paranormal is useless.

Let's say that there is someone who asserts that taking a pebble and dropping it, it will float upwards. Every attempt will show that the pebble will fall down, when it s dropped. Now that does not "disprove" the original assumption - in the correct, strict sense of the word - but it will show that the assumption is very likely to be false.

I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here.  I'm only speaking of the existence of a soul.  If you want to consider that a paranormal claim, that's fine, but I don't think anyone has ever claimed to have produced one and said, "and here you see it with your own eyes, gentlemen—the soul."  It doesn't bother me if you think the soul doesn't exist.  I am not trying to proselytize you into believing in the existence of the soul.  I am just saying that if you wanted proof, it would not come from someone outside of yourself.  It would be an inward experience.  You could either try to have it or not.  And it would be fine, too, if you wanted to say, "all claims of mystical experience are just oddities of our neurochemistry."  That's certainly a possibility.
 

Offline Scowler

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2018, 09:46:34 PM »
I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here. 

Indeed. They are merely similar, but not identical. Of course we "ventured" pretty far away from the intended subject of this thread. I only wanted to see if "anti-Catholic" pronouncements and "non-Catholic" ones are considered to be the same. In my "neck of the woods", something "anti-" is hostile, or antagonistic, while "non-" only expresses a differing opinion. That is all. :)
 

Offline Lydia Purpuraria

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 08:00:29 AM »
I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here. 

Indeed. They are merely similar, but not identical. Of course we "ventured" pretty far away from the intended subject of this thread.

Oh -- I took PdR as responding to your request that someone else initiate conversation on "immaterial" realities.  And I found it to be an interesting conversation, but perhaps you intended for that to be taken up in a new thread. (?)

Quote
I only wanted to see if "anti-Catholic" pronouncements and "non-Catholic" ones are considered to be the same. In my "neck of the woods", something "anti-" is hostile, or antagonistic, while "non-" only expresses a differing opinion. That is all. :)

I think I'd agree with you that "anti-Catholic" pertains more towards being intentionally hostile or antagonistic to Catholic doctrines, practices, and so on (with no intention of understanding, only "nay-saying," etc).  Whereas "non-Catholic" would be more in the realm of neutrality, or of non-hostile questioning, or simply differing opinions (whether on secular or religious matters).  But I guess it's sort of an issue of varying semantics and temperaments? because there will be those who feel instantly threatened by anything that contradicts or questions Catholicism or the Catholic worldview, and therefore they will view as "hostile" or "anti-Catholic" any such inquirers / inquiries.  (And with that I think we're just back to your original question!  LOL  :-\)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 12:23:54 PM by Lydia Purpuraria »
 
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Offline Scowler

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 12:52:00 PM »
Oh -- I took PdR as responding to your request that someone else initiate conversation on "immaterial" realities.  And I found it to be an interesting conversation, but perhaps you intended for that to be taken up in a new thread. (?)

Yes, indeed. I don't want to mix up different subjects in one thread. In another thread I would be glad to have such a discussion.

I think I'd agree with you that "anti-Catholic" pertains more towards being intentionally hostile or antagonistic to Catholic doctrines, beliefs, and so on (with no intention of understanding, only "nay-saying," etc).  Whereas "non-Catholic" would be more in the realm of neutrality, or of non-hostile questioning, or simply differing opinions (whether on secular or religious matters).  But I guess it's sort of an issue of varying semantics and temperaments? because there will be those who feel instantly threatened by anything that contradicts or questions Catholicism or the Catholic worldview, and therefore they will view as "hostile" or "anti-Catholic" any such inquirers / inquiries.  (And with that I think we're just back to your original question!  LOL  :-\)

How right you are! Sometimes I am getting intimidated, and start to censor myself, lest I would say something "politically incorrect". :) And in the other thread I seem to have committed just such a "faux pas" by making a silly, but innocent pun. I guess I cannot be careful enough.
 
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Offline Carleendiane

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 02:11:56 PM »
Oh -- I took PdR as responding to your request that someone else initiate conversation on "immaterial" realities.  And I found it to be an interesting conversation, but perhaps you intended for that to be taken up in a new thread. (?)

Yes, indeed. I don't want to mix up different subjects in one thread. In another thread I would be glad to have such a discussion.

I think I'd agree with you that "anti-Catholic" pertains more towards being intentionally hostile or antagonistic to Catholic doctrines, beliefs, and so on (with no intention of understanding, only "nay-saying," etc).  Whereas "non-Catholic" would be more in the realm of neutrality, or of non-hostile questioning, or simply differing opinions (whether on secular or religious matters).  But I guess it's sort of an issue of varying semantics and temperaments? because there will be those who feel instantly threatened by anything that contradicts or questions Catholicism or the Catholic worldview, and therefore they will view as "hostile" or "anti-Catholic" any such inquirers / inquiries.  (And with that I think we're just back to your original question!  LOL  :-\)

How right you are! Sometimes I am getting intimidated, and start to censor myself, lest I would say something "politically incorrect". :) And in the other thread I seem to have committed just such a "faux pas" by making a silly, but innocent pun. I guess I cannot be careful enough.

Oh Scowler, we are not so very delicate. You just hit a nerve. There are not so many "nerves" that you must alway have a guard up lest you step on a toe or two. But, that being said, you will surely be alerted if you manage to offend someone.  :) I had no idea about forum decorum. Had to suffer a few corrections before I learned where NOT to go!
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.
 
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Offline Scowler

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2018, 09:53:44 AM »
Oh Scowler, we are not so very delicate. You just hit a nerve. There are not so many "nerves" that you must alway have a guard up lest you step on a toe or two. But, that being said, you will surely be alerted if you manage to offend someone.  :) I had no idea about forum decorum. Had to suffer a few corrections before I learned where NOT to go!

Well, maybe not, but why risk it? If a simple pun can create such a vehement response, what could happen if I asked a serious question? Because there are quite a few, which I would like to ask. Now to come clean, those questions are not about catholic faith itself (I am quite familiar with it), rather, how can you reconcile the different facets of the faith. Because from here - the outside - there are serious internal contradictions. And contradictions cannot be "resolved" by declaring them "mysteries". :) 

This is not the proper forum to ask, so I will NOT present this problem as a starting point to initiate a conversation. So there is no reason to present an answer. The problem is this: "God is sovereign, immutable and all-knowing (basic Catholicism). Therefore any supplicative or intercessory prayer (different from the meditative prayer), which asks something from God is futile." Reason: no matter, how hard you ask, if it is not God's will, it will never be fulfilled. If it is God's will, you just wasted your (and God's ;) ) time by asking it - because it WILL happen. And, since God already knew what you will ask... it is a double exercise in futility.

Again, this is not a question which would require an answer. Just a simple observation, nothing more. See you later. :)
 

Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2018, 03:06:47 PM »
Quote
...This is not the proper forum to ask, so I will NOT present this problem as a starting point to initiate a conversation. So there is no reason to present an answer. The problem is this: "God is sovereign, immutable and all-knowing (basic Catholicism). Therefore any supplicative or intercessory prayer (different from the meditative prayer), which asks something from God is futile." Reason: no matter, how hard you ask, if it is not God's will, it will never be fulfilled. If it is God's will, you just wasted your (and God's ;) ) time by asking it - because it WILL happen. And, since God already knew what you will ask... it is a double exercise in futility.

Again, this is not a question which would require an answer. Just a simple observation, nothing more. See you later. :)

Not an answer, but a thinking out loud comment:   in an odd way, I came to this conclusion; that is, in studying Divine Providence, my prayers changed from a specific request to solely 'Thy Will be done" for ultimately, It is.
As you allude, since God is timeless, there is the understanding that He knows/has always known, our implorations - but we don't know that they are futile. He is Mercy as well as Justice.

Of course, this all leads to the issue of predestination, free will, etc and there are some excellent threads on SD that delve deeply into those topics.   You could search/resurrect one?
To understand the Catholic teaching of this (rather heavy) question, requires understanding some other serious Catholic teachings.  Good stuff.
They shall not be confounded in the evil time; and in the days of famine they shall be filled
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Offline Carleendiane

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2018, 04:30:56 PM »
Yep. Thank you Per, couldn't have said it better myself. Being the corrupt vessel I am. Look anywhere but here. Where I am. God bless you, Scowler!
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.
 

Offline Scowler

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2018, 04:02:07 PM »
Not an answer, but a thinking out loud comment:   in an odd way, I came to this conclusion; that is, in studying Divine Providence, my prayers changed from a specific request to solely 'Thy Will be done" for ultimately, It is.

I agree that this is logical. Yet, I have seen many threads where people prayed for lost car keys, or a favorable outcome for their beloved football teams, and when the keys were found, or the team won, they gave thanks to God (whom they treated as a vending machine) and asserted that prayer actually "works" by influencing the Almighty to interfere on their behalf. I recall an event when a co-worker of mine who proudly exclaimed that the house of their in-laws (hurricane Hugo in Charleston, Sept 1989) was spared because he and his whole family stayed up all night and prayed for the miracle. I was itching to ask, why did he not pray also the other homes, which were demolished... but I was a "chicken". 

Of course, this all leads to the issue of predestination, free will, etc and there are some excellent threads on SD that delve deeply into those topics.   You could search/resurrect one?
To understand the Catholic teaching of this (rather heavy) question, requires understanding some other serious Catholic teachings.  Good stuff.

I would not know which thread to resurrect. :) But I agree that the questions you mentioned are very difficult. (Well, not difficult for a "heathen" like me, but that is a different question.)
 

Offline Lydia Purpuraria

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Re: Clarification, please.
« Reply #39 on: Today at 01:26:00 PM »


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