There is Absolutely No Salvation Outside the Church

Started by In.Christo, December 29, 2017, 12:27:37 PM

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In.Christo

Regarding Salvation outside of the Church, I would like to make the case that there is absolutely no Salvation outside the Church.  In this piece I will be making the previously stated claim with the objective in mind, not the subjective.  Speaking objectively is when one states how things are in the ordinary circumstance.  Speaking objectively is when one states the how things are subjected to an individual occurrence.  I do not make the claim regarding individual souls, rather I state the objective viewpoint of things.

Christians today often reject the doctrine of Predestination forming material heresy, not knowing what they reject is not Predestination but Double-Predestination.  The Council of Trent declares that"If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.."  Pope Paul III here acknowledges that there are those predestined for Heaven (the three visionaries at Fatima for example, who were told by Our Lady that they would enter into Heaven.) but that there are not those predestined for Hell.  St. Paul writes in his Epistle to the Romans "For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated . . . And whom he predestinated, them he also called.  And whom he called, them he also justified.."  St. Thomas writes in his Summa Theologiae says that "God does reprobate some.  For it was said above that predestination is a part of providence . . . Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation . . . Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.."  Here Trent's decree is supported, St. Paul writes that the elect are justified, and St. Thomas Aquinas writes that the elect are given the graces to obtain Salvation; moreover, he also states that God allows people of bad-will to fall into mortal sin, -- as he knows, in  His foreknowledge that the men of bad-will will be damned, regardless of their free will.

God, in His foreknowledge, has placed those of good-will in the path of Salvation, and consequently in the path of His Church.  Vatican I states that "We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord."  Blessed Pius IX here states that there is no Salvation outside of the Church, therefore nobody of pagan faiths can be saved; however, there are some who out of invincible ignorance have had no opportunity whatsoever to know of Christianity.  According to the Holy Gospel written by St. Luke, whoever breaks ignorance of the Faith but does not wish to convert immediately, hates God.  He writes this, "He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me."  In this anybody who hears of Christianity and consequently the Church, here's of God, but whoever does not comply with the demand of conversion lose all chance of Salvation.  St. Augustine confirms this doctrine with with zeal.  The Saint teaches that "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church.  Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation.  One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, . . . one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost . . . but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.."  Here St. Augustine clarifies that those who adhere to there terrible heresies of Protestantism or "Orthodoxy" have no chance of Salvation and are of bad-will.

Though Predestination is acknowledged by the Council of Trent, it also teaches the doctrine of Free Will.  Here is proof of this claim, ". . . the free will of man, moved and excited by God, can by its consent co-operate with God, Who excites and invites its action; and that it can thereby dispose and prepare itself to obtain the grace of justification.  The will can resist grace if it chooses.  It is not like a lifeless thing, which remains purely passive.  Weakened and diminished by Adam's fall, free will is yet not destroyed in the race."  Pope Paul III here introduced the idea that both the doctrines of Predestination and Free Will can coexist.  In the Second Letter to the Corinthians it is written that "Now the Lord is a Spirit.  And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."  St. Thomas Aquinas shows proof of man's free will here, "Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain. In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge.  But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought.  But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things.  For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments.  And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will." This argument proves that those who are born outside of the Church can be of good-will, if they convert or have no potential whatsoever to learn of the Church throughout their whole lives.

Contrary to popular thought amongst "Christians", Predestination is an infallible teaching of the Church.  God has chosen an elect for Salvation, but none are to presume of their own predestination, or the predestination of others.  It is also taught that those who live the entirety of their lives removed from hope of finding Truth, will not be judged by the same standard as one who has.  This however is extremely rare, and even when this situation is apparent, Salvation is not ensured, and should absolutely never be presumed.  Free will is not contradicted by the doctrine of Predestination.  We are predestined to our free will due to God's foreknowledge.  Therefore there can be no perceived Salvation outside the of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

My God bless and Mary keep you, in Christ, Jesus+

Michael Wilson

"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

In.Christo

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 29, 2017, 01:03:29 PM
In Christo,
We have many threads in "The Sacred Sciences" thread dealing with the very subject of your post.


This thread's subject is regarding the necessity of membership in the Roman Catholic Church for Salvation, not Predestination.
My God bless and Mary keep you, in Christ, Jesus+

Michael Wilson

It contains both.
From how I read your post, you are not going to get any arguments around here.
Also, we have very few EENS (Extra Ecclesia Nula Salus) threads, because we are not allowed to discuss Feeneyism on this forum.
*Feeneyism defined as those who hold the position that there is not such thing as Baptism of blood or desire, and that one has to be an actual member of the Church in order to be saved.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

In.Christo

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 29, 2017, 01:30:07 PM
It contains both.
From how I read your post, you are not going to get any arguments around here.
Also, we have very few EENS (Extra Ecclesia Nula Salus) threads, because we are not allowed to discuss Feeneyism on this forum.

Why is that?
My God bless and Mary keep you, in Christ, Jesus+

Gardener

Quote from: In.Christo on December 29, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 29, 2017, 01:30:07 PM
It contains both.
From how I read your post, you are not going to get any arguments around here.
Also, we have very few EENS (Extra Ecclesia Nula Salus) threads, because we are not allowed to discuss Feeneyism on this forum.
Why is that?


https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=3891.msg268122#msg268122
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Prayerful

#6
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 29, 2017, 01:30:07 PM
It contains both.
From how I read your post, you are not going to get any arguments around here.
Also, we have very few EENS (Extra Ecclesia Nula Salus) threads, because we are not allowed to discuss Feeneyism on this forum.
*Feeneyism defined as those who hold the position that there is not such thing as Baptism of blood or desire, and that one has to be an actual member of the Church in order to be saved.

The point should be made that the uncanonical and procedurally suspect excommunication probably originated with cocksure fortunate son Bobby Kennedy taking umbrage at Fr Leonard Feeney, who being a Kennedy, used the good offices of Kennedy family friend Richard (Cardinal Cushing) to brand a good priest a heretic (it can be noted that JFK was very respectful to Fr Feeney unlike Bobby). The ailing Fr Feeney had all penalties lifted over a decade later, asked only to recite his choice of one of the Creeds of the Church, with no requirement to retract anything he preached or wrote. The Order he founded, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary sell his writings, and have a canonical status, unlike the chapels of his unthinking ultra critics who sling 'Feeneyite' as a term of abuse (I'm thinking in particular of a Pfeifferite organ which lists and judges traditional priests, and holds that Francis is Pope but no priest and much else besides). And whatever about the first (which results in needless disagreement over nothing), the latter, the Salvation Dogma is that, a Dogma.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

Michael Wilson

Yes, Fr. Feeney was reconciled a la "N.O."; no retraction of his errors and simply recite one of the Creeds if the Church; the same happened to an Indian "theologian" that denied several teachings of the Church; just recite the Creed and no problem.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Prayerful

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 29, 2017, 03:12:35 PM
Yes, Fr. Feeney was reconciled a la "N.O."; no retraction of his errors and simply recite one of the Creeds if the Church; the same happened to an Indian "theologian" that denied several teachings of the Church; just recite the Creed and no problem.

The 'Boston Heresy Case' so-called was bereft of any normal procedure, in particular no reason being given for the summons to Rome. The proximate cause was not 'his errors,' whatever these may be, but the Salvation Dogma, for example in some fiery speeches on Boston Common, which offended Havard undergrad Bobby Kennedy, resulting in Richard Cardinal Cushing playing Kennedy errant boy in Rome, with some sort of excommunication appearing in Acta Apostolicae Sedis for not heeding a valid summons. The trials of the Holy Inquisition had such a reputation for justice that criminal suspects sought transfer of their case to it on any pretext. This excommunication suggests that in the decades before the tragedy of V2 there was decrepitude and decay within the Curia. There was nothing for Fr Feeney to retract (how could he retract ignoring an invalid summons?), and the lifting of penalties, was the least he deserved.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

ServusMariae

Quote from: Prayerful on December 29, 2017, 02:10:41 PM
The point should be made that the uncanonical and procedurally suspect excommunication probably originated with cocksure fortunate son Bobby Kennedy taking umbrage at Fr Leonard Feeney, who being a Kennedy, used the good offices of Kennedy family friend Richard (Cardinal Cushing) to brand a good priest a heretic (it can be noted that JFK was very respectful to Fr Feeney unlike Bobby). The ailing Fr Feeney had all penalties lifted over a decade later, asked only to recite his choice of one of the Creeds of the Church, with no requirement to retract anything he preached or wrote. The Order he founded, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary sell his writings, and have a canonical status, unlike the chapels of his unthinking ultra critics who sling 'Feeneyite' as a term of abuse (I'm thinking in particular of a Pfeifferite organ which lists and judges traditional priests, and holds that Francis is Pope but no priest and much else besides). And whatever about the first (which results in needless disagreement over nothing), the latter, the Salvation Dogma is that, a Dogma.

I see that you have linked to Catholicism.org which points to the un-canonical Slaves in New New Hampshire. What about the one in Still River, Massachusetts? (I hope I spelled Massachusetts right ...)

Michael Wilson

Yes, the errors were detailed in the letter from the Holy Office to Cardinal Cushing: "Suprema haec sacra", August 8, 1949.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Greg

Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Xavier

Yes, Fr. Feeney's mistake on BoD/BoB was rejected. This is the true sense of the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church. From Fr. Michael Mueller, CSSR, with Rome's approval.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm#P1L

Quote"Q. How do people come to lose this faith?

A. 1. By want of instruction.
2. By neglect of prayer and other religious duties.
3. By worldliness and a wicked life.
4. By reading bad books.
5. By intercourse with scoffers at religion.
6. By mixed marriages.
7. By becoming members of secret societies.
8. By pride and subtle reasoning on the mysteries of our religion.
9. By want of submission to the Church.
10. By godless education.

Lesson XII.—No Salvation Outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

Q. Since the Roman Catholic Church alone is the true Church of Jesus Christ, can any one who dies outside of the Church be saved?

A. He cannot.

Q. Why not?

A. Because one who does not do the will of God cannot be saved.

Q. Is it, then, the will of God that all men should be Catholics?

A. Yes; because it is only in the Roman Catholic Church that they can learn the will of God; that is, the full doctrine of Jesus Christ, which alone can save them.

Q. Did Jesus Christ Himself assure us most solemnly, and in plain words, that no one can be saved out of the Roman Catholic Church?

A. He did, when He said to His Apostles: "Go and teach all nations, and teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. He that believeth not all these things shall be condemned."

Q. Did Jesus Christ assure us in other words of the damnation of those who die out of His Church?

A. He did in these words: "He who will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican." Matt. xviii. 17....

Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?

A. There are several. They cannot be saved because
1. They have no divine faith.
2. They make a liar of Jesus Christ, of the holy Ghost, and of the Apostles.
3. They have no faith in Christ.
4. They fell away from the true Church of Christ.
5. They are too proud to submit to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ.
6. They cannot perform any good works whereby they can attain heaven.
7. They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
8. They die in their sins.
9. They ridicule and blaspheme the Mother of God and His Saints.
10. They slander the spouse of Jesus Christ—the Catholic Church.

Q. Why is it that Protestants have no divine faith?

A. Because they do not believe God in those whom He has appointed to teach.

Q. Who is the teacher among Protestants?

A. Every one is his own teacher, his own law-giver and judge in matters of religion.

Q. Was there ever a time when God left men to themselves, to fashion their own religion, to invent their own creed, and their own form of worship?

A. No; from the beginning of the world God established on earth a visible teaching authority, to which it was the bounden duty of every man to submit.

Q. What follows from this?

A. That Protestants, by refusing to submit to that divine teaching authority, cannot have divine faith.

Q. What is the act of faith of a Protestant?

A. O my God, I believe nothing except what my own private judgment tells me to believe; therefore I believe that I can interpret Thy written word—the Holy Scriptures—as I choose. I believe that the Pope is anti-Christ; that any man can be saved, provided he is an honest man; I believe that faith alone is sufficient for salvation; that good works, and works of penance, and the confession of sins are not necessary, etc.

Q. Is this an act of divine faith?

A. It is rather a great blasphemy against God; it is the language of Luther, who, according to his own avowal, learned it from the devil....

Have Protestants any faith in Christ?

A. They never had.

Q. Why not?

A. Because there never lived such a Christ as they imagine and believe in.

Q. In what kind of Christ do they believe?

A. In such a one of whom they can make a liar, with impunity, whose doctrine they can interpret as they please, and who does not care about what a man believes, provided he be an honest man before the public.

Q. Will such a faith in such a Christ save Protestants?

A. No sensible man will assert such an absurdity.

Q. What will Christ say to them on the day of judgment?

A. I know you not, because you never knew Me.

Q. Can a man be saved who has left the true Church of Christ—the Holy Catholic Church?

A. No; because the Church of Christ is the kingdom of God on earth, and he who leaves that kingdom shuts himself out from the kingdom of Christ in heaven....

Who were the first Protestants?

A. 1. Martin Luther, a bad German priest, who left his convent, broke the solemn vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, which he had made to God, married a nun, and became the founder of the Lutherans.
2. Henry VIII., a bad Catholic king of England, who murdered his wives, and founded the Episcopalian or Anglican Church.
3. John Calvin, a wicked French Catholic, who was the founder of the Calvinists.
4. John Knox, a bad Scottish priest, who was the founder of the Presbyterians or Puritans.

Q. What great crime did these wicked men commit?

A. They rebelled against the Church of Jesus Christ, and caused a great number of their Catholic countrymen to follow their bad example....

What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?

A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.

Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

Q. What do you mean by this?

A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?

A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.

Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?

A. Eternal damnation.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Prayerful

Quote from: ServusMariae on December 29, 2017, 08:13:01 PM
Quote from: Prayerful on December 29, 2017, 02:10:41 PM
The point should be made that the uncanonical and procedurally suspect excommunication probably originated with cocksure fortunate son Bobby Kennedy taking umbrage at Fr Leonard Feeney, who being a Kennedy, used the good offices of Kennedy family friend Richard (Cardinal Cushing) to brand a good priest a heretic (it can be noted that JFK was very respectful to Fr Feeney unlike Bobby). The ailing Fr Feeney had all penalties lifted over a decade later, asked only to recite his choice of one of the Creeds of the Church, with no requirement to retract anything he preached or wrote. The Order he founded, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary sell his writings, and have a canonical status, unlike the chapels of his unthinking ultra critics who sling 'Feeneyite' as a term of abuse (I'm thinking in particular of a Pfeifferite organ which lists and judges traditional priests, and holds that Francis is Pope but no priest and much else besides). And whatever about the first (which results in needless disagreement over nothing), the latter, the Salvation Dogma is that, a Dogma.

I see that you have linked to Catholicism.org which points to the un-canonical Slaves in New New Hampshire. What about the one in Still River, Massachusetts? (I hope I spelled Massachusetts right ...)

St Benedict's Abbey, Still River, MA, the Sisters of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary both have canonical recognition. The Abbey is part of the Benedictine Confederation. The Richmond NH Benedict Center are a Private Association of the Faithful, per Canon 299 (a fair few religious houses have that status) and have good relations with the local ordinary in Worcester NH. All three recognise Pope Francis, and are particularly supportive of the correct Church teaching on EENS, which had suffered increasing eclipse despite the condemnation of Americanism and other errors which either denied or effectively nullified the Salvation Dogma.

Suprema Haec Sacra was a Holy Office letter to Richard Cardinal Cushing that was just an episode in a very sorry spectacle where an arrogant young man (Bobby Kennedy) abused his connections to do harm to a talented priest who sought merely to highlight how core Church teaching was reduced to something nominal through unclear language, Humpty Dumpty of Alice in Wonderland language where words mean whatever the speaker wants them to mean. This tactic was later used in each of those interminable V2 documents. Another interminable document Amoris Laetitia operates in the same way.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

Michael Wilson

You are correct in stating that Suprema Haec Sacra was a letter from the Holy Office; as to the language and doctrine it contained being somehow "Humpty Dumpty"; the eminent theologian Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton thought the contrary; and while we are at it; isn't it strange that the followers of Fr. Feeney deny that he taught any doctrinal errors, and yet they all hold the same false teachings, namely denying B.O.B.; B.O.D. and affirming that anyone who is not an actual member of the Church cannot be saved, even if they die in the state of grace. Just go to C.I. Forum and read page after page of arguments from his devotees.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers