Mass and little ones ... what did our forefathers do?

[OCLittleFlower]

3 seems a bit old to me -- by then, my son was silent in Mass and sitting through it, no toys, no cards.  I assume fussing is crying type noises not babbling -- that could be distracted away, I suppose, but I would probably request quiet FIRST with the kid needing to be quiet to get it. 

Babbling stuff doesn't annoy me if I'm not a) in Mass, b) trying to hear something else, or c) it's excessive to the point of the shrieking laughter.  I've been in Mass with people who let kids WAIL for minutes on end before taking them out -- that's what will give me the headaches.  But no, that isn't okay, headache or no -- you'd have to be superhuman to hear a sermon past that.

[diaduit]

3 seems a bit old to me -- by then, my son was silent in Mass and sitting through it, no toys, no cards.  I assume fussing is crying type noises not babbling -- that could be distracted away, I suppose, but I would probably request quiet FIRST with the kid needing to be quiet to get it. 

Babbling stuff doesn't annoy me if I'm not a) in Mass, b) trying to hear something else, or c) it's excessive to the point of the shrieking laughter.  I've been in Mass with people who let kids WAIL for minutes on end before taking them out -- that's what will give me the headaches.  But no, that isn't okay, headache or no -- you'd have to be superhuman to hear a sermon past that.

Yes babbling is doable but anything higher like wailing or crying  I step out immediately as that is inconsiderate.  I find too that even the introduction of a novelty doesn't stop the wailing,  once it starts the kids just are not going to be placated  (mine weren't anyway).

[OCLittleFlower]

3 seems a bit old to me -- by then, my son was silent in Mass and sitting through it, no toys, no cards.  I assume fussing is crying type noises not babbling -- that could be distracted away, I suppose, but I would probably request quiet FIRST with the kid needing to be quiet to get it. 

Babbling stuff doesn't annoy me if I'm not a) in Mass, b) trying to hear something else, or c) it's excessive to the point of the shrieking laughter.  I've been in Mass with people who let kids WAIL for minutes on end before taking them out -- that's what will give me the headaches.  But no, that isn't okay, headache or no -- you'd have to be superhuman to hear a sermon past that.

Yes babbling is doable but anything higher like wailing or crying  I step out immediately as that is inconsiderate.  I find too that even the introduction of a novelty doesn't stop the wailing,  once it starts the kids just are not going to be placated  (mine weren't anyway).

Fair enough.  Seems to be a difference in terms, then. I don't think giving things for wailing or crying (esp in toddlers -- babies is something else) is a good "feedback loop," so to speak.  It becomes similar to why a dog will beg at the table -- he is rewarded for it.  And while it isn't bad (as in sinful), it is definitely not DESIRED behavior, which is the only thing that should be rewarded.

Though I think it's preferable to be in a crying room or to take shifts, if possible.

[red solo cup]

What sort of future does a church have if there are no children present?

[MundaCorMeum]

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all children have the same temperament or personality. Our toddler is and has always been a very lively and happy, active, and curious little girl (she's probably sanguine/choleric). Then I look at other toddlers and they don't have that same personality, they seem uninterested in things and won't even make an attempt to move out of their parents arms (maybe they are phlegmatic or melancholic). If I had a child like that, who is perfectly comfortable with just being carried at an age when everything should be interesting, then fine, I would probably be able to not be distracted at Mass. But at the other hand, I'd be worried something wasn't quite right with their developmental stage.

So I'm just accepting the fact that when my little one is climbing the pews up and down but isn't making any noise, that's as good as it can get at her age (15mo). She's not touching anyone or invading anyone's private space or playing with toys, eating, drinking etc. I've many times looked at the toddlers that are being carried and held quietly during the whole Mass and wished that our toddler would allow us to hold her like that too, but that's just not her personality.

temperament definitely makes a difference.  My 10 month old seems to be sanguine.  She is constantly bouncing and bubbly when I hold her.  And SUPER friendly.  When we walk into Mass, she gets all excited, because PEOPLE!  She smiles and waves at everyone.  A friend of mine has a baby slightly younger, and all he does is sit in her lap all through Mass and look around.  Nice.  Church dynamics also come into play.  Our Mass is really crowded, and we sit in the front, so all the kids can see well.  It's harder for them to pay attention if all they can see in front of them is the backside of the person in the next pew   So, it would be really distracting for the people behind me to let her stand next to me, holding the back of the pew we are in.  Yesterday, I ended up in the empty confessional with the door closed, and let her crawl around and play.  It was fine.  She was quiet and happy, and I just sat in the chair and prayed...it was kind of nice, actually =)

[MundaCorMeum]

You'd like the SSPX in NYC.  Zero children

Probably would, tbh.  A lot of kid noise (especially the shrieking) is literally a migraine trigger for me.  I almost always get at least a mild headache from other people's kids at Mass.

perhaps this is a particular suffering Our Lord gave you to offer up for the good of souls.  The thing is, when we expect people to be considerate of our own particular needs (how can I possibly know if my kids will set off a migraine for someone, anyway?), it goes a long way to do the same for theirs.  Also, the church holds children in very high regard, and we are a pro-life people (or, we are supposed to be, anyway).  Our Lord admonished the apostles for trying to shoo the seemingly annoying children away.  He told us that unless we be like children, we will not enter Heaven.  So, I think it's important to be patient and understanding with families who are trying their best to teach their kids to behave at Mass.  Sometimes, they won't be perfect angels, and other people just have to bear that burden.  They are kids, so there will be a learning curve.  Pray for them to have the grace to stay firm and keep their hand to the plow.  It's really hard with a pew full of children, and every exhausting; even when parents are very much aware of their duty to keep their kids well-behaved and quiet at Mass.  I know this will sound prideful, but I am saying it to confirm that yes, it is possible to have a large, well-mannered family at church.  Except for the baby, who I stay in the back with to keep distraction out of the pew, all 6 of our other kids are quiet and relatively still at church (they younger ones have their days, but for the most part, they behave).  People compliment us often at how well-behaved our kids are.  My husband and I put in the blood, sweat, and tears to teach them to be so, and the kids are learning.  I apologize again for sounding prideful.  Kids will probably be a disaster at Mass today for that   

And offering it up is the only thing that keeps me even able to go to Mass sometimes, depending on the chapel.  Even then, I can't go in damp weather if I need to be the one driving.

But it shouldn't take a migraine from someone else for people to keep them quiet or keep them out.  Common decency should do the trick.

Pro-life doesn't mean putting up with society's decay of manners for the sake of the children.  I am as against abortion as the next Trad, and I think that taking kids everywhere, refusing to take them out when they make noise, etc, only serves to make people dislike children MORE, not less.  I understand why some people choose a childless life -- they think having kids means having "those kids" -- the ones who are out of control.  The "childfree" lifestyle is a trend in part because children are acting more and more like monkeys, and so people are deciding simply not to have them for the same reason that the pet monkey trend fizzled out.    Because people refuse to teach the kids any manners, refuse to say "no", etc, they think that living with a young child means putting up with some horrid combo of dictator and shoulder monkey pet.

And yeah, I'm sure it is exhausting to drag them all to Mass, especially the little ones.  And in a perfect world with multiple Latin Masses close by, we wouldn't have to.  I'll never be a fan of bringing them along before they are old enough to learn to be still and quiet in relatively short order -- if anything, doing so only practices doing it the wrong way, making the wrong way more ingrained.  Practice doesn't make perfect, good practice makes perfect. 

As for nursing in Mass, our chapel doesn't allow it (nor do they allow food/snacks), so I'm not sure how people make that transition.

We do teach our kids manners, they are quiet at Mass, and we do take them out if they get to be a distraction.  I actually don't even bother to bring the baby into the pew at all, because of the stage she's at.  Either myself or my oldest daughter always just stay in the back with her (there is no cry room at our church), and take her out if she starts making more than just quiet baby noises; or, we use the empty confessional and shut the door.  I've never had anyone complain about our kids behavior at Mass.  I've only ever had encouragement from fellow pew sitters.      All I'm saying is there needs to be a little give and take on both sides.  Be patient as parents are teaching their kids proper behavior, and don't get frustrated at the smallest, tiniest infractions of others.  And parents, teach your kids good manners and appropriate church behavior (which does not include toys and food in the pew, as I've said).  If my church had a no food rule, I would respect that and figure out something else when I'm weaning the baby.  As it is, no body minds, we aren't making a mess, and I'd be surprised if any one was even aware that I was given her a cheerio here and there, because I do it out of eye sight of everyone.  I agree with you that the level of discipline among many, many parents today is appalling.  It's a joy to be around well-mannered children.  I know many of them.  The ones that aren't, due to parents who let their children run the show, well.....


ETA:  or even those times where a family is maybe just having a rough day.  Maybe their kids are normally well-mannered, but there's a full moon and the stars are aligned just so, and everyone is out of sorts.  We've had days where we leave Mass, husband and I look at each other and say, "what in the world was that?!  Who are these kids and where are our children?"  It happens.  I try to assume the best when I see families struggling, especially if I only see them one time.  I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are doing their best, and are maybe just having an off day.  No body is perfect this side of heaven.  Now, there are "those families" whose kids are always acting up, and parents ignore them.  I know those families, too, and I agree..it's very frustrating.  There's not much I can do about it, but pray for them.  It's easy for us to sit here and pontificate on how children should be raised (I am doing it, too), but in real life, it's a little different.  You can't exactly go tap people on the shoulder, and say, "hey, get control of your kids. They're obnoxious and bothering everyone".  Well, you can, but I bet it won't help anything.  You catch more flies with honey and all that. 

[OCLittleFlower]

Oh yeah, agreed.  We have a lot of "those families."  Granted, the NO parishes in our local area are complete wrecks -- food all over the pews from the last Mass, etc.  My husband grew up eating McDonalds in the pew like it was nothing.  It might not be that bad in other parts of the US (heck, even in other parts of California, I've never had to clean up literal spilt milk to be able to sit down) so maybe that's why there's the lack of a "no food rule." 

I don't say anything (or, with the issue of food, didn't say anything back in my NO days), but I will confess to giving die cast metal car boy's mom a bit of a dirty look when she handed him back the car without so much as a "never do that again, young man."

I've seen and heard some APPALLING things -- granted, the TLMs are better, but still generally worse in terms of child behavior than the NO where I grew up.

I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but I do have a hard time believing that so many people are having a bad day with their kids every dang time I go somewhere in public.  And it's only getting worse.

[Chestertonian]

The annoying part of going to church is you have to deal with other people with their sins and failures but that's life and sometimes you're the one doing things other people have to put up with.  But you have jesus in the blessed sacrament who puts up with all of us. 

[The Curt Jester]

If you want to know what wild children are really like, go to a Spanish Mass.

[JubilateDeo]

If you want to know what wild children are really like, go to a Spanish Mass.

That is true!

[Lynne]

If you want to know what wild children are really like, go to a Spanish Mass.

hahaha

[OCLittleFlower]

If you want to know what wild children are really like, go to a Spanish Mass.

Very true.  Seems like a cultural thing in general with child behavior.

[The Curt Jester]

We have had the fire alarm pulled at our church three times in three years.  Every single time it has been at the Spanish Mass.   I'd be willing to bet that every single time that child was not being watched at all by the parents.   The typical attitude there is to let the children run at least 20 feet away before going after them.

[james03]

1.  The HUSBAND must discipline poorly behaving children at Mass.

2.  Understand that the kid is going to act up at Mass until properly trained.  Do not be embarrassed by it.  It's going to happen.

3.  When the child starts misbehaving, DADDY takes the child out of Church away from Momma.

4.  This is a punishment.  You hold the child.  He will scream to high heaven.  Doesn't matter.  Cry room is not play room.

5.  You tell the child, "When you are ready to be a big boy, you can go back to Momma."  Don't let him down to play.  When he settles down, take him back in.  Repeat as often as needed.

6.  If warranted, spank him.  If you have to take him out a second time, its a spanking.

7.  To repeat, don't be embarrassed.  Your fellow parishoners are happy you are dealing with the situation and are not upset by the crying as you take the child out of Church.

8.  The problem occurs when you were lax on the first one, and then the second one comes along.  Moral of the story, don't be lax on discipline.

9.  Absolutely no toys in Church.  Discipline your child.  Dads have to do their jobs.

10.  Training the child to behave has multiple benefits outside of Church.  Kids that can control themselves do well at restaurants and school.

[james03]

If you want to know what wild children are really like, go to a Spanish Mass.

True.  True.  I sincerely believe lack of childhood rearing is one of the causes (up there with Marxism) of the hell hole conditions in Latin America.  Kids running up and down the aisles in Church.   Amazing.  The boys raised right have the ambition to jump the border and flee.  Only problem is that they bring in wives who don't know how to discipline their kids and it replicates.  I think there is also a cultural aspect where the men don't take care of the discipline even if they go to Church.  Which is rare.