Mass and little ones ... what did our forefathers do?

[MundaCorMeum]

I was paraphrasingI just really don't like the "I know someone who has these extraordinary circumstances and they still managed to XYZ" just make me feel like a failure.  sometimes we can't live up to other peoples standards.  I have never argued for letting children run wild in church but I've personally encountered childlesspeople who are unwilling to forgive a single peep from a child. Si it can seem like you're under a microscope at mass because every little slip up is noted and you don't want to be "those people" about whom people write articles in catholic blogs with the 1 year old throwing pacifiers into the middle of the aisle (Apparently my son did this at mass today)

I have a feeling we are just talking past each other, and we likely both see child behavior at Mass in a balanced way:  teach your kids good church manners; which means don't let the kids run rampant, climb on the pews or on random Laus's; but, also be patient and understanding as they are learning.  Expecting statuesque-like children who never utter a peep, under any circumstances whatsoever, and don't occasionally throw a pacifier in the aisle is unrealistic (trust me, mine have thrown their fair share of stuff in church.  My oldest slapped a priest's hand when she was 18 months old, as held up the Holy Host for me for Communion....we've all had our moments).  I was not advocating for that. 

Parents have a duty to form their children to the best of their abilities, whether they find themselves in extraordinary circumstances or not.  If you are doing that, then you are not failing.  And I would be shocked if my friend was the only person on the face of the planet who is a single parent capable of teaching her kids to be well-mannered at Mass. 

As far as beng under the microscope when you have kids....it just comes with the territory, no matter where you are. 

[Carleendiane]

If I stare at your kids....it is because they are adorable. I am highly unlikely to look while your kids are misbehaving. I will not contribute to your discomfort. I love to see children of any age as a sign of life and wellbeing for tradition. Just go ahead, do what you have to do. Down the road, they will marry and bring new life to carry on tradition.

[JubilateDeo]

We just had 3 families leave our chapel, all of them longtime parishioners, because we have this one woman who makes a big fit whenever children make any amount of noise in church.  I have seen her loudly shoosh children behind her and it just adds distraction upon distraction.  Our pastor had to make an announcement that parents are to keep their children quiet in church OR take them downstairs where we have a play area with toys and a TV that shows the Mass going on upstairs.  And he also told the congregation that they were not allowed to harass parents about their children and concerns about babies and noise are to be taken directly to the pastor. 

[Perpetua]

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all children have the same temperament or personality. Our toddler is and has always been a very lively and happy, active, and curious little girl (she's probably sanguine/choleric). Then I look at other toddlers and they don't have that same personality, they seem uninterested in things and won't even make an attempt to move out of their parents arms (maybe they are phlegmatic or melancholic). If I had a child like that, who is perfectly comfortable with just being carried at an age when everything should be interesting, then fine, I would probably be able to not be distracted at Mass. But at the other hand, I'd be worried something wasn't quite right with their developmental stage.

So I'm just accepting the fact that when my little one is climbing the pews up and down but isn't making any noise, that's as good as it can get at her age (15mo). She's not touching anyone or invading anyone's private space or playing with toys, eating, drinking etc. I've many times looked at the toddlers that are being carried and held quietly during the whole Mass and wished that our toddler would allow us to hold her like that too, but that's just not her personality.

[OCLittleFlower]

You'd like the SSPX in NYC.  Zero children

Probably would, tbh.  A lot of kid noise (especially the shrieking) is literally a migraine trigger for me.  I almost always get at least a mild headache from other people's kids at Mass.

perhaps this is a particular suffering Our Lord gave you to offer up for the good of souls.  The thing is, when we expect people to be considerate of our own particular needs (how can I possibly know if my kids will set off a migraine for someone, anyway?), it goes a long way to do the same for theirs.  Also, the church holds children in very high regard, and we are a pro-life people (or, we are supposed to be, anyway).  Our Lord admonished the apostles for trying to shoo the seemingly annoying children away.  He told us that unless we be like children, we will not enter Heaven.  So, I think it's important to be patient and understanding with families who are trying their best to teach their kids to behave at Mass.  Sometimes, they won't be perfect angels, and other people just have to bear that burden.  They are kids, so there will be a learning curve.  Pray for them to have the grace to stay firm and keep their hand to the plow.  It's really hard with a pew full of children, and every exhausting; even when parents are very much aware of their duty to keep their kids well-behaved and quiet at Mass.  I know this will sound prideful, but I am saying it to confirm that yes, it is possible to have a large, well-mannered family at church.  Except for the baby, who I stay in the back with to keep distraction out of the pew, all 6 of our other kids are quiet and relatively still at church (they younger ones have their days, but for the most part, they behave).  People compliment us often at how well-behaved our kids are.  My husband and I put in the blood, sweat, and tears to teach them to be so, and the kids are learning.  I apologize again for sounding prideful.  Kids will probably be a disaster at Mass today for that   

And offering it up is the only thing that keeps me even able to go to Mass sometimes, depending on the chapel.  Even then, I can't go in damp weather if I need to be the one driving.

But it shouldn't take a migraine from someone else for people to keep them quiet or keep them out.  Common decency should do the trick.

Pro-life doesn't mean putting up with society's decay of manners for the sake of the children.  I am as against abortion as the next Trad, and I think that taking kids everywhere, refusing to take them out when they make noise, etc, only serves to make people dislike children MORE, not less.  I understand why some people choose a childless life -- they think having kids means having "those kids" -- the ones who are out of control.  The "childfree" lifestyle is a trend in part because children are acting more and more like monkeys, and so people are deciding simply not to have them for the same reason that the pet monkey trend fizzled out.    Because people refuse to teach the kids any manners, refuse to say "no", etc, they think that living with a young child means putting up with some horrid combo of dictator and shoulder monkey pet.

And yeah, I'm sure it is exhausting to drag them all to Mass, especially the little ones.  And in a perfect world with multiple Latin Masses close by, we wouldn't have to.  I'll never be a fan of bringing them along before they are old enough to learn to be still and quiet in relatively short order -- if anything, doing so only practices doing it the wrong way, making the wrong way more ingrained.  Practice doesn't make perfect, good practice makes perfect. 

As for nursing in Mass, our chapel doesn't allow it (nor do they allow food/snacks), so I'm not sure how people make that transition.

[OCLittleFlower]

We just had 3 families leave our chapel, all of them longtime parishioners, because we have this one woman who makes a big fit whenever children make any amount of noise in church.  I have seen her loudly shoosh children behind her and it just adds distraction upon distraction.  Our pastor had to make an announcement that parents are to keep their children quiet in church OR take them downstairs where we have a play area with toys and a TV that shows the Mass going on upstairs.  And he also told the congregation that they were not allowed to harass parents about their children and concerns about babies and noise are to be taken directly to the pastor.

Sounds like a reasonable approach.  Our chapel took a similar approach with modesty -- there is a sign on the door, but laypeople are NOT supposed to give the modesty speech to strangers, because they often go about it poorly and scare off guests who might otherwise have wanted to stay.  Apparently, there were issues with that before our time there.

[Obrien]

OCLittleFLower,

Does your chapel have a cryroom? Is there a place for nursing moms to sit? Does this mean no bottles in church as well?

[OCLittleFlower]

OCLittleFLower,

Does your chapel have a cryroom? Is there a place for nursing moms to sit? Does this mean no bottles in church as well?

Yes, though its in another building and most don't bother with it (though should).  Typically they go outside and sit under the big tree -- it's California and our weather is almost always good.

Not sure about bottles.  The only bottle feeding mom I know of went outside when her son was bottle feeding age -- I always thought that was good because her son was always a bit fussy.

[Obrien]

It is always a blessing when a sweet lady (much like our CarleenDiane) opens her missal and hands her stash of holy cards to the fussy toddler and points to various things to capture his attention and keep him still for a bit. Awww, those sweet bits of encouragement from God are something to be thankful for.

I hope I am never the reason for someone leaving the parish because of a harsh comment or glare.

[OCLittleFlower]

It is always a blessing when a sweet lady (much like our CarleenDiane) opens her missal and hands her stash of holy cards to the fussy toddler and points to various things to capture his attention and keep him still for a bit. Awww, those sweet bits of encouragement from God are something to be thankful for.

I hope I am never the reason for someone leaving the parish because of a harsh comment or glare.

See, that's the surest way to tick off me, my husband, or my mother -- we see it as rewarding the fussing and going over the parent's head. 

[Chestertonian]

It is always a blessing when a sweet lady (much like our CarleenDiane) opens her missal and hands her stash of holy cards to the fussy toddler and points to various things to capture his attention and keep him still for a bit. Awww, those sweet bits of encouragement from God are something to be thankful for.

I hope I am never the reason for someone leaving the parish because of a harsh comment or glare.

See, that's the surest way to tick off me, my husband, or my mother -- we see it as rewarding the fussing and going over the parent's head. 

sounds like basic kindness and redirection.

[OCLittleFlower]

It is always a blessing when a sweet lady (much like our CarleenDiane) opens her missal and hands her stash of holy cards to the fussy toddler and points to various things to capture his attention and keep him still for a bit. Awww, those sweet bits of encouragement from God are something to be thankful for.

I hope I am never the reason for someone leaving the parish because of a harsh comment or glare.

See, that's the surest way to tick off me, my husband, or my mother -- we see it as rewarding the fussing and going over the parent's head. 

sounds like basic kindness and redirection.

Not without asking the parent first.  Especially if a kid is fussing -- someone outside the family stepping in and rewarding the behavior is NOT helping matters in the long run.

Stepping in and doing something "kind" without asking first is the furthest thing from kind and is actually VERY disrespectful.  If it's not a literal emergency, don't do it.

[Chestertonian]

It is always a blessing when a sweet lady (much like our CarleenDiane) opens her missal and hands her stash of holy cards to the fussy toddler and points to various things to capture his attention and keep him still for a bit. Awww, those sweet bits of encouragement from God are something to be thankful for.

I hope I am never the reason for someone leaving the parish because of a harsh comment or glare.

See, that's the surest way to tick off me, my husband, or my mother -- we see it as rewarding the fussing and going over the parent's head. 

sounds like basic kindness and redirection.

Not without asking the parent first.  Especially if a kid is fussing -- someone outside the family stepping in and rewarding the behavior is NOT helping matters in the long run.

Stepping in and doing something "kind" without asking first is the furthest thing from kind and is actually VERY disrespectful.  If it's not a literal emergency, don't do it.

i wouldnt view holy cards as "rewards."  it's not like they are stickers or pokemon cards..." holy cards, gotta pray em all!  i know it's my destinyyy"   they are supposed to give us holy images to meditate on. 

we always brought a keyring with laminated holy cards for my son to look at.

[OCLittleFlower]

It is always a blessing when a sweet lady (much like our CarleenDiane) opens her missal and hands her stash of holy cards to the fussy toddler and points to various things to capture his attention and keep him still for a bit. Awww, those sweet bits of encouragement from God are something to be thankful for.

I hope I am never the reason for someone leaving the parish because of a harsh comment or glare.

See, that's the surest way to tick off me, my husband, or my mother -- we see it as rewarding the fussing and going over the parent's head. 

sounds like basic kindness and redirection.

Not without asking the parent first.  Especially if a kid is fussing -- someone outside the family stepping in and rewarding the behavior is NOT helping matters in the long run.

Stepping in and doing something "kind" without asking first is the furthest thing from kind and is actually VERY disrespectful.  If it's not a literal emergency, don't do it.

i wouldnt view holy cards as "rewards."  it's not like they are stickers or pokemon cards..." holy cards, gotta pray em all!  i know it's my destinyyy"   they are supposed to give us holy images to meditate on. 

we always brought a keyring with laminated holy cards for my son to look at.

Cried -- got something nice

It isn't that the holy cards are bad, it's the impulse to hand something to someone else's misbehaving kid without the parent's permission.  I'd say the same thing if she handed him healthy food or candy or anything really.  Don't turn fussing into a way to get "stuff."

[diaduit]

It is always a blessing when a sweet lady (much like our CarleenDiane) opens her missal and hands her stash of holy cards to the fussy toddler and points to various things to capture his attention and keep him still for a bit. Awww, those sweet bits of encouragement from God are something to be thankful for.

I hope I am never the reason for someone leaving the parish because of a harsh comment or glare.

See, that's the surest way to tick off me, my husband, or my mother -- we see it as rewarding the fussing and going over the parent's head. 

But a fussy child (pre 3 yrs) is just that and not a child being bold. I think you view it as bad behaviour but I don't.  I see it as being normal behaviour that as they get older they fine tune it.  I think parents should step outside with a fussy child but it's knowing at what point do you step out.
Sometimes the fussinesss is low key which can be kept at that for a few minutes with some holy cards to fiddle with. It's all about buying the mum or dad a few minutes more inside mass. It could be good timing too, low key fussing before Consecration can be helped with the cards and mum gets to stay , the bells usually captivate mine until Consecration is over.
Then if it gets to more than a low key fussiness you step out .  All the parishioners in our church  (loads of children) have it down to a fine art , we don't jump out of the seat at the first whimper but if it gets to be more or incessant out we go.
Oc, you say you are very sensitive to noise and it brings on migraines  (I've never had one Thank God) that must be extremely difficult but your setting the parameters on what is not  acceptable based on your over sensitivity to noise (which we would too if we suffered that) but can you see that your reaction might not be proportional to normal toddler gurgling sounds .