Author Topic: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum  (Read 2477 times)

Offline Justin Martyr

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2022, 07:40:29 PM »
Sorry, I didn't read your link on "discouraging propaganda", before responding to this, but John Calvin denied the authority of the magisterium and went Martin Luther's way of exalting "sola scriptura"...

This isn't strictly true; Calvin believed in a magisterium, he just rejected that this magisterium was infallible or that it was the magisterium of the "papists" (on the grounds that the latter contradicted scripture, the fathers, and the creeds; and on the grounds that "Popes and councils have contradicted themselves"). Sola Scriptura as understood by the magisterial reformers doesn't mean "Bible Alone/Me and my bible"; rather it means that the Bible alone is the sole infallible rule of faith which the fallible rules (confessions, creeds, synods, fathers) are conformed to. These fallible rules of faith are still used in traditional Lutheran, Anglican, and Reformed circles to interpret scripture, they're just subservient rather than equal to scripture.

Many can and do say that this is essentially the SSPX/sede approach, just with multiple infallible rules (scripture, tradition, prior magisterium/"Denzinger") which are used to judge and reject the (putative) living magisterium of the Church. This approach is also identical to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, who have the three infallible rules of Scripture, Tradition, and prior magisterium (the first seven/three ecumenical councils) which they use to judge and reject the Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2022, 08:11:08 PM by Justin Martyr »
One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?
The Canticle of Canticles, 6:8-9
 
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Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2022, 07:44:15 PM »
The details of the legions of heretics and schismatics don't matter. It was just an example: anybody can have a "last good Pope" idea and then declare every Pope after to be invalid and lacking authority.

Sedevacantists are not in agreement over this either, so we shouldn't even assume that any given Sedevacantist has any particular belief, but they don't explain themselves in full first, so we are forced to assume they fit the most common expression that we encounter.

But since they don't distinguish themselves, neither shall I.

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2022, 07:56:40 PM »
I do find it amusing how much energy is directed to attacking sedevacantism when the whole world is falling apart...

I'm not sure how many people you consider responsible for the "much energy," but I have not observed that on this forum, or even on other forums. Quite the opposite. During the pandemic, trads on and off SD, as well as a surprising number of conservative Catholics, flirted heavily with SV'ism, with many today retaining that high level of skepticism. I don't know what you were reading and listening to, but I know what I was reading and hearing. That phenomenon happened because the world was in fact falling apart (and still is) while most of the hierarchy, in a moment of great global need and great opportunity, hid like cowards and behaved like politicians instead of courageous shepherds.
 

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2022, 07:58:05 PM »
I do find it amusing how much energy is directed to attacking sedevacantism when the whole world is falling apart...

If the debates were kept in the appropriate place, none of us would really post about it anywhere else and no clarifications of rules would be needed.

Face it: it is you and your kind who lack discipline who provoke Sedevacantist discussions on the general forum that is the problem.

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2022, 08:05:06 PM »
Catholics who are traditional and do not rely on personal opinions are bound to observe:
  • The authority of the Pope and bishops united with the Roman Pontiff (including Eastern Churches and their patriarchs and bishops who specifically request union with the Roman Pontiff when elected)
  • The most current Canons and decrees of the Church by the above. This means that the 1917 Code of Canon Law is a useful reference, but it is not in force and nobody is able to enforce it, so we are morally obligated to observe what is most current.
  • The sacraments of the Church where this is no positive reason to doubt them (ie, an observed irregularity, which could happen anywhere), rather than doubting the Rites just because one does not like them.
Anybody who insists on doing otherwise to Catholics who are not specifically involved in the Sedevacantist topic are just being confronted with essentially anti-Catholic posting. People who read this forum's rules and joined it did not intend to be on a different forum.

If anybody wants advice or help setting up another forum (using SMF), I can certainly do that. I've set up quite a few forums and configured them and it is easy to run, especially when a forum has generally low traffic. If the people who used to be on this forum in the beginning want advice on how to setup a secure forum that is up to date (unlike their current forum), I can do that too. I can be contacted with the information on my website. I do not consider this to be a bad thing to do if it helps people who are discontent here and want to spread their discontent here because they think they are morally obligated have their own place, it would be better for all of us.

Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2022, 08:22:43 PM »
Face it: it is you and your kind who lack discipline who provoke Sedevacantist discussions on the general forum that is the problem.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
 

Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2022, 08:24:20 PM »
Miriam, have a look through the SVist board on here and see how many threads have been started by anti-sedevacantists in the last few months.
 
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Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2022, 08:24:25 PM »
Face it: it is you and your kind who lack discipline who provoke Sedevacantist discussions on the general forum that is the problem.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

I've had enough personally heckling from a certain crowd to respond to it: it is a big enough percentage of activity here for it to be a real problem.

And don't try to gaslight me. Do you not think I recognize this tactic?

Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2022, 08:25:06 PM »
Have you tried using the Ignore button?
 

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2022, 08:32:11 PM »
Have you tried using the Ignore button?

I enter ignored profiles into the list manually, but yes, I've used the function.

But that is not the point: this is a discussion forum. If I am not starting a discussion (thread), I am responding to one. That is what forums are. Don't try to control how I use the forum: control how you use it.

Ignoring the trolls makes them bolder. And I do tend to focus on responses to my own threads and posts more than others. I had no real intention of having any Sedevacantist discussion when being active here, but they kept interjecting their propaganda onto threads outside the board for that debate.

If I were to hold that position, I would consider myself to have committed the sin of Schism and all that entails. It is not a judgement I impose on others on this issue, as it is a complex situation for some people and moral judgement requires a very fine understanding of specifics, but if anybody says I should not recognize the Pope, obey the bishops, respect priests, and recognize sacraments, they are a scandal. It does not matter whether they are atheists, Protestants, Sedevacantists, or individual Catholics who have idiosyncratic application of Church teaching.

The fact that this kind of rhetoric is scandalous should cause people who hold these beliefs to be very careful in expressing them. I don't know how many are careful, because they would naturally be silent, but I do know there are too many like you are who are not careful.

If I hold a copy of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, Catechism of Pius X, or the Baltimore Catechism, and am told that I have to deny any doctrine in them, then I reject the claim and the person making it. It is a very simple way of practicing the faith: I am not in a position of authority or power. My ability to know things is limited. I do not pretend otherwise. I follow higher counsel, not personal uncertain opinions of myself or others.

Those who know they are scandalous should not complain when Catholics protest.

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2022, 09:04:44 PM »
Miriam, have a look through the SVist board on here and see how many threads have been started by anti-sedevacantists in the last few months.

That's quite possible, and I'll take your word for it.  While I read the SV forum with some regularity, it's not daily, as it is with other sections of the forum.  I was referring to many of my own posts on SD during 2020 and probably early '21, describing what was going on in several parishes I attended, where parishioners were being essentially radicalized by their disillusionment -- those experiences sometimes being echoed by other forum users in their different locations.

I saw that kind of sequence on other forums as well, initiated by others and confirmed by third parties.
 
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Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2022, 09:07:47 PM »
Joseph, if sedevacantism bothers you so much, why don't you just block all of us and move on?
 
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Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2022, 09:08:50 PM »
I was referring to many of my own posts on SD during 2020 and probably early '21, describing what was going on in several parishes I attended, where parishioners were being essentially radicalized by their disillusionment -- those experiences sometimes being echoed by other forum users in their different locations.

I saw that kind of sequence on other forums as well, initiated by others and confirmed by third parties.

This is actually an interesting phenomenon.
 

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2022, 09:32:43 PM »
Joseph, if sedevacantism bothers you so much, why don't you just block all of us and move on?

Because I still accept this forum to be what it states to be, regardless of how micromanaged your posts are.

Don't blame your lack of discipline on me.

Miriam, have a look through the SVist board on here and see how many threads have been started by anti-sedevacantists in the last few months.

That is because Sedevacantist propaganda was being presented on the general forum without restraint. Those who persisted in disrespecting the Pope, disparaging Priests, and denying authority are the ones who have erred. This forum has a specific rule about how to refer to the Popes, and yet, so many persist in violating it. What is that proving besides their own ill-will?

Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Re: Clarification re: Sedevacantism and the Forum
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2022, 09:34:50 PM »
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