Author Topic: Slavery and Catholics  (Read 2594 times)

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Slavery and Catholics
« on: December 21, 2021, 12:03:52 PM »
On other threads, various discussions of slavery addressed many aspects.

There is actually a lot in scripture about slavery as it was a social class that was nearly universal, and the apostles wrote about it a lot too within this context.

But I find that excessive discussion of past slavery to be somewhat distracting from what matters. We don't live in those times. And slavery as they knew it isn't legal most of the time for most people, but that doesn't mean slavery doesn't exist, for as St Peter writes:

Quote from: 2 Peter 2:19
Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave.

In a material sense, we focus on other people, money, institutions, and governments. But all that is passing.

We are all slaves, but the question is, of what? Our flesh? The world? Other people? Or of God? It is our choice.

Rather than sift through scriptural references, which in the case of the Douay-Rheims, translates "servus" (slave) differently depending on context (servant/bondman are common as well as slave),  St Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort has written on the subject which is worth considering:

Quote from: True Devotion to Mary
These words of the Holy Spirit show that Jesus is the sole source and must be the sole end of all our good works, and that we must serve him not just as paid servants but as slaves of love. Let me explain what I mean.

There are two ways of belonging to another person and being subject to his authority. One is by ordinary service and the other is by slavery. And so we must use the terms "servant" and "slave". Ordinary service in Christian countries is when a man is employed to serve another for a certain length of time at a wage which is fixed or agreed upon. When a man is totally dependent on another for life, and must serve his master without expecting any wages or recompense, when he is treated just like a beast of the field over which the owner has the right of life and death, then it is slavery.

Now there are three kinds of slavery; natural slavery, enforced slavery, and voluntary slavery. All creatures are slaves of God in the first sense, for "the earth and its fullness belong to the Lord". The devils and the damned are slaves in the second sense. The saints in heaven and the just on earth are slaves in the third sense. Voluntary slavery is the most perfect of all three states, for by it we give the greatest glory to God, who looks into the heart and wants it to be given to him. Is he not indeed called the God of the heart or of the loving will? For by this slavery we freely choose God and his service before all things, even if we were not by our very nature obliged to do so.

There is a world of difference between a servant and a slave.

...

No other human state involves belonging more completely to another than slavery. Among Christian peoples, nothing makes a person belong more completely to Jesus and his holy Mother than voluntary slavery. Our Lord himself gave us the example of this when out of love for us he "took the form of a slave". Our Lady gave us the same example when she called herself the handmaid or slave of the Lord. The Apostle considered it an honour to be called "slave of Christ". Several times in Holy Scripture, Christians are referred to as "slaves of Christ".

Granting this, I say that we must belong to Jesus and serve him not just as hired servants but as willing slaves who, moved by generous love, commit themselves to his service after the manner of slaves for the honour of belonging to him. Before we were baptized we were the slaves of the devil, but baptism made us the slaves of Jesus. Christians must be either the slaves of the devil or the slaves of Jesus Christ.

Offline Philip G.

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2021, 02:36:12 PM »

Peter 2:19]Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave.


The douay of Peter 2:19 refers the reader to read John 8:34.

JOhn 8:31-36 Then Jesus said to those jews, who believed him.  If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed.  And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.  They answered him, we are the seed of abraham, and we have never been slaves to any man, how sayest thou, you shall be free?  Jesus answered them, amen, amen I say unto you, that whosoever comitteth sin, is the servant of sin.  Now the servant abideth not in the house for ever, but the son abideth for ever. If therefore the son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

I think we should find a different word to casually describe the state of grace.  Slavery seems to be a polar opposite of what Christ is presenting to us here in his offer of salvation.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2021, 02:45:31 PM »
I think we should find a different word to casually describe the state of grace.  Slavery seems to be a polar opposite of what Christ is presenting to us here in his offer of salvation.

People are headstrong and need strong words to remind them they are not "free", as in "independent of higher power".

You can see this mindset infests the world (at least, the "developed" world).

This is the best time to emphasize that we are not free and independent. We are slaves, and we can choose our masters in this world, but God calls us to Him.

Should we be slaves of concupiscence? Of other men? Or money? Or should we be slaves of God.

If Jesus is Lord and Our Master, then we are His Slaves.

Your own quote of scripture states this: we are slaves to sin, or slaves to God, and that is true freedom.

Quote from: John 8:31-36
[34] Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.
Respondit eis Jesus : Amen, amen dico vobis : quia omnis qui facit peccatum, servus est peccati.

[35] Now the servant abideth not in the house for ever; but the son abideth for ever.
Servus autem non manet in domo in aeternum : filius autem manet in aeternum.

[36] If therefore the son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
Si ergo vos filius liberaverit, vere liberi eritis.

Note: most translations, including the D-R, translate "servus" variably, but it means "slave" and is translated as such sometimes.

The Son does not make us free by being independent of Him, but by accepting Him as our Master and abandoning the ways of sin.

Offline Philip G.

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2021, 05:35:16 PM »
There are only two types of relationships in the church that remotely resemble a type of religious/spiritual-slavery, if you will call it that, to Christ. 

There is the relationship between Christ and St. Peter. 

"Simon, Simon, behold satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.  But, I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not, and thou, being once converted confirm thy brethren." 

"Amen, amen I say to thee, when thou wast younger, thou didst gird thyself, and didst walk where thou wouldst.  But when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and lead thee whither thou wouldst not." 

And, there is the relationship between Christ and religious sisters portrayed in the parable of the ten virgins, and the story of Martha and Mary. 

"Now whilst they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready, went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut." 

"...a certain woman named Martha, received him into her house.  And she had a sister called Mary, who sitting also at the Lord's feet, heard his word."

In terms of the papacy, Peter is, on this earth, the visible authority with the keys/power to rule the church in place of Christ.  While, at the same time, he is led "whither he wouldst not".  In terms of the five virgins and Mary, the door is shut, similar to how a slave is not free to go, yet the relationship is that of bride and groom, which in matrimonial terms hearkens that of an equality, similar that of the spouses.  Mary is at Our Lord's feet, like a slave, yet has left Martha "alone to serve".  All of this represents a mysterious contradiction.  To label it one or the other would be a mistake.  These two manifestations in the church are 100% a mystery.  "The first see is judged by none". 

In sum, I predict that as religious-slavery devotions increase, authentic female religious vocations in union with the pope will decrease, along with a papacy that further sinks into the mire of modernism and corruption.

Just as the five unfaithful virgins said, "give us of your oil", and Christ said "blessed art thou, simon bar jonah", there is an element of envy present in the pursuit of religious/spiritual-slavery. 

Slavery on all accounts, is best left to the extremes in both society and in the church, lest you lose both.

The devil apes God.  Just as religious sisters have a "convent" to shield them from the outside world, the exposed slave in nothing but chains, is ever before your eyes.  Just as St. Peter has a "curia", and a hierarchical structure of fellow clerics to support his mission, the slave owner, cannot help but dominate his neighbor in the societies where allowed to dwell.  The devil apes God.  It is for this reason that the two can never co exist. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 06:16:12 PM by Philip G. »
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2021, 08:30:22 PM »
In sum, I predict that as religious-slavery devotions increase, authentic female religious vocations in union with the pope will decrease, along with a papacy that further sinks into the mire of modernism and corruption.
Are you associating any particular devotions with a reduction in vocations and the rise of evil?

Quote
Just as the five unfaithful virgins said, "give us of your oil", and Christ said "blessed art thou, simon bar jonah", there is an element of envy present in the pursuit of religious/spiritual-slavery.

Your hangup with the word "slavery" is a cultural issue.

It is used liberally in scripture, including by an angel:

Quote from: Apocalypse 22:9
et dixit mihi : Vide ne feceris : conservus enim tuus sum, et fratrum tuorum prophetarum, et eorum qui servant verba prophetiae libri hujus : Deum adora.

Quote
Slavery on all accounts, is best left to the extremes in both society and in the church, lest you lose both.
That is a novel idea. Where is it from?

Quote
The devil apes God.  Just as religious sisters have a "convent" to shield them from the outside world, the exposed slave in nothing but chains, is ever before your eyes.  Just as St. Peter has a "curia", and a hierarchical structure of fellow clerics to support his mission, the slave owner, cannot help but dominate his neighbor in the societies where allowed to dwell.  The devil apes God.  It is for this reason that the two can never co exist.

That is why "Christians must be either the slaves of the devil or the slaves of Jesus Christ".

You are going through a lot of trouble to find issue with this word, that is used in scriptures as well as particular works of saints.

Servus doesn't have a single meaning and that is what is explained. If you cannot distinguish the meanings after that, you really shouldn't write about it, because you are doomed to display errors in the attempt.

Offline Philip G.

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2021, 11:57:17 PM »
Scripture says Mt 6:24 - "no man can serve two masters.  For either he will hate the one, and love the other, or he will sustain the one, and despise the other.  You cannot serve both God and Mammon". 

This passage from the sacred scriptures, is evidence that slavery/servitude/whatever you so wish to call it, is not a binary affair, as you would have us believe with your not-in-the-slightest-an-authority louis de montfort references. It is a fourfold conversation.  And, out of all four of these, only one of these can be the uniquely unmistakable ugly thing we all know of as slavery, and the thing I am rejecting in Christendom.  You are muddying the waters by not only lifting the word slave in this sense out of its proper context to baptize it in a time where it already only means one thing, and that is a bad thing.

Moving on.  Here is what I think it means.  The slave owner is the "type" of master that is "hated", to reference the scripture above.  The one that is "loved" is God.  Now, for the twist, which I doubt you considered if genuine in your error.  Spouses are the next topic.  I think the "despised" master, and the master that you "stand by" is referring to spouses in an invalid marriage on one end, and spouses in a valid marriage on the other.  I will not say for sure, but spouses definitely are not in the same category as everyone else.  Just the fact that there is a marital debt suggests this.

In sum, when you try to make everything black and white, you end up making none of it black and white. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 11:58:49 PM by Philip G. »
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2021, 12:03:01 AM »
Scripture says Mt 6:24 - "no man can serve two masters.  For either he will hate the one, and love the other, or he will sustain the one, and despise the other.  You cannot serve both God and Mammon". 

Serve God or Mammon, not both.

Be a servant of God or Mammon.

That is scripture as you show.

Quote from: Matthew 6:24
Nemo potest duobus dominis servire : aut enim unum odio habebit, et alterum diliget : aut unum sustinebit, et alterum contemnet. Non potestis Deo servire et mammonae.

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This passage from the sacred scriptures, is evidence that slavery/servitude/whatever you so wish to call it, is not a binary affair,
God or mammon is a binary choice.

God or "not God" is a binary choice.

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as you would have us believe with your not-in-the-slightest-an-authority louis de montfort references.
Saint Louis de Montfort

He didn't invent the words. He also takes great effort to explain what kinds of slavery there are and what he means.

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IYou are muddying the waters by not only lifting the word slave in this sense out of its proper context to baptize it in a time where it already only means one thing, and that is a bad thing.
You are wrong.

Quote
Moving on.  Here is what I think it means.

Quote from: 2 Peter 1:20
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

What you think it means is not relevant.

Quote
In sum, when you try to make everything black and white, you end up making none of it black and white.

That is your strawman?

Offline Philip G.

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2021, 12:24:07 AM »


Quote
In sum, when you try to make everything black and white, you end up making none of it black and white.

That is your strawman?

Language is power.  When our culture already has a proper understanding and use of the term, you serve to open the door with your abuse of language, so that the black and white invasive practice that is slavery can creep right in to grow like a festering wound alongside you.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2021, 12:39:27 AM »
I made this thread as a reaction to the Coffee and Donuts tangents.

I included the quotation from True Devotion because it was very appropriate.

Language is power.

Some words need careful distinctions and explanations when they are used if they are likely to be misunderstood. St. Louis de Montfort was careful to fully address what was meant and what was not and what distinctions were being made.

I was careful to include the proper context for this thread.

If you don't like the use of the word, then you shouldn't read scripture.

Quote from: Romans 1:1
Παῦλος δοῦλος Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ, κλητὸς ἀπόστολος, ἀφωρισμένος εἰς εὐαγγέλιον θεοῦ,

Paulus, servus Jesu Christi, vocatus Apostolus, segregatus in Evangelium Dei,

Paul is referring to himself as a slave of Jesus Christ directly in ordinary language and it is translated as such in Latin.

Sure, English has a lot more words to use, and the word δοῦλος/servus is actually translated at least three different ways in scripture in the Douay-Rheims at least, even because of you I consulted an online version of the NAB to see how it does it, and surprisingly, the most modern English translation is very literal:

Quote from: Romans 1:1, NAB
Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God,


Your personal interpretations of scripture and objections on your own spurious conclusions about things you have no right to judge has led you into error.

And it is a weird one.

It is not a word one uses casually, and any use of the word in this manner is done in context. You seem to think this word, a regular word embedded in scripture and other holy writings, is somehow harm.

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2021, 12:40:59 AM »
I hope you will appreciate that I always seek to consult works instead of presenting my own ideas and interpretations.

I learned this from scripture:

Quote from: Proverbs 13:16
The prudent man doth all things with counsel: but he that is a fool, layeth open his folly.

Your novel ideas and personal interpretations are leading you away from holy things.

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2021, 12:44:09 AM »
I made this thread as a reaction to other discussions in Coffee and Donuts, but you come here and object to a Saint, quibble about a word, and present your own novel ideas and objections to what is scriptural.

Review the Past.

Are you this intractable?

Why did you respond to my post? Is your memory as faulty as mine?

Offline AlNg

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2021, 01:53:24 PM »

We are all slaves,
i don't think so. How is Donald Trump a slave? Who is his slavemaster? Will he be released after 7 years of service?
 

Offline Goldfinch

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2021, 03:23:39 PM »
We are all slaves
i don't think so. How is Donald Trump a slave? Who is his slavemaster? Will he be released after 7 years of service?

Unless Donald Trump leads a life of grace nourished by the sacraments and the true faith, which is impossible since he identifies as a non-denominational Protestant, then he is a slave to sin.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2021, 05:32:29 PM by Goldfinch »
"For there are no works of power, dearly-beloved, without the trials of temptations, there is no faith without proof, no contest without a foe, no victory without conflict. This life of ours is in the midst of snares, in the midst of battles; if we do not wish to be deceived, we must watch: if we want to overcome, we must fight." - St. Leo the Great
 
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2021, 05:31:34 PM »
If we are either slaves of the devil, or slaves of Jesus, how can there be mortal sin on the part of the wicked or merit on the part of the just? 

If you are a slave of the devil, how can you satisfy all three conditions for mortal sin when one for example is full consent of the will?  When one is compelled, as opposed to tempted, to do an action, as a slave is, it lessens the culpability of that action, in this case sin.  I wouldn't be surprised if all three conditions required to satisfy mortal sin were lessened in one way or another as a result of diabolical "slavery".  I guess nobody goes to hell anymore. 

On the part of the just, this may be why louis de montfort does not profess the catholic doctrine of merit.  He contradicts it when he says that the true form of devotion is to seek entry into heaven with zero merits, because they were all given away to the virgin mary. 

For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline TerrorDæmonum

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Re: Slavery and Catholics
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2021, 05:52:42 PM »
If we are either slaves of the devil, or slaves of Jesus, how can there be mortal sin on the part of the wicked or merit on the part of the just? 
Read the Catechism on what "mortal sin" is and how the baptized in such a state are described.

Quote
If you are a slave of the devil, how can you satisfy all three conditions for mortal sin when one for example is full consent of the will?  When one is compelled, as opposed to tempted, to do an action, as a slave is, it lessens the culpability of that action, in this case sin.  I wouldn't be surprised if all three conditions required to satisfy mortal sin were lessened in one way or another as a result of diabolical "slavery".  I guess nobody goes to hell anymore. 
Slaves still have free will. I don't know what you are talking about here.

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On the part of the just, this may be why louis de montfort does not profess the catholic doctrine of merit.  He contradicts it when he says that the true form of devotion is to seek entry into heaven with zero merits, because they were all given away to the virgin mary.
Read Saint Louis de Montfort's works in full with understanding, instead of interpreting what you misunderstand wrongly deliberately. You are wrong.

Why do you write such diabolical things when you know they are not true?