Slave or Servant?

Started by Insanis, May 18, 2021, 10:08:16 PM

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Insanis

On another thread there was a question about the appropriateness of the word "slave" in St Louis de Montfort's writings on devotion to Mary.

In True Devotion to Mary:

Quote from: True Devotion to Mary
These words of the Holy Spirit show that Jesus is the sole source and must be the sole end of all our good works, and that we must serve him not just as paid servants but as slaves of love. Let me explain what I mean.

There are two ways of belonging to another person and being subject to his authority. One is by ordinary service and the other is by slavery. And so we must use the terms "servant" and "slave". Ordinary service in Christian countries is when a man is employed to serve another for a certain length of time at a wage which is fixed or agreed upon. When a man is totally dependent on another for life, and must serve his master without expecting any wages or recompense, when he is treated just like a beast of the field over which the owner has the right of life and death, then it is slavery.

Now there are three kinds of slavery; natural slavery, enforced slavery, and voluntary slavery. All creatures are slaves of God in the first sense, for "the earth and its fullness belong to the Lord". The devils and the damned are slaves in the second sense. The saints in heaven and the just on earth are slaves in the third sense. Voluntary slavery is the most perfect of all three states, for by it we give the greatest glory to God, who looks into the heart and wants it to be given to him. Is he not indeed called the God of the heart or of the loving will? For by this slavery we freely choose God and his service before all things, even if we were not by our very nature obliged to do so.

There is a world of difference between a servant and a slave.

And it goes on in explaining the words and distinctions.

And it says:

Quote from: True Devotion
No other human state involves belonging more completely to another than slavery. Among Christian peoples, nothing makes a person belong more completely to Jesus and his holy Mother than voluntary slavery. Our Lord himself gave us the example of this when out of love for us he "took the form of a slave". Our Lady gave us the same example when she called herself the handmaid or slave of the Lord. The Apostle considered it an honour to be called "slave of Christ". Several times in Holy Scripture, Christians are referred to as "slaves of Christ".

Granting this, I say that we must belong to Jesus and serve him not just as hired servants but as willing slaves who, moved by generous love, commit themselves to his service after the manner of slaves for the honour of belonging to him. Before we were baptized we were the slaves of the devil, but baptism made us the slaves of Jesus. Christians can only be slaves of the devil

So, in the fullness of the words, and the application of the word, the work is very careful in how it words it and it does indeed means slave and it explains exactly why and how.

(Note: for reference, I am copying from a PDF and if there are any errors, please let me know. My available literature is a bit sparse at the moment.)

Philip G.

#1
Quote from: Insanis on May 18, 2021, 10:08:16 PM
On another thread there was a question about the appropriateness of the word "slave" in St Louis de Montfort's writings on devotion to Mary.

In True Devotion to Mary:

Quote from: True Devotion to Mary
These words of the Holy Spirit show that Jesus is the sole source and must be the sole end of all our good works, and that we must serve him not just as paid servants but as slaves of love. Let me explain what I mean.

There are two ways of belonging to another person and being subject to his authority. One is by ordinary service and the other is by slavery. And so we must use the terms "servant" and "slave". Ordinary service in Christian countries is when a man is employed to serve another for a certain length of time at a wage which is fixed or agreed upon. When a man is totally dependent on another for life, and must serve his master without expecting any wages or recompense, when he is treated just like a beast of the field over which the owner has the right of life and death, then it is slavery.

Now there are three kinds of slavery; natural slavery, enforced slavery, and voluntary slavery. All creatures are slaves of God in the first sense, for "the earth and its fullness belong to the Lord". The devils and the damned are slaves in the second sense. The saints in heaven and the just on earth are slaves in the third sense. Voluntary slavery is the most perfect of all three states, for by it we give the greatest glory to God, who looks into the heart and wants it to be given to him. Is he not indeed called the God of the heart or of the loving will? For by this slavery we freely choose God and his service before all things, even if we were not by our very nature obliged to do so.

There is a world of difference between a servant and a slave.

And it goes on in explaining the words and distinctions.

And it says:

Quote from: True Devotion
No other human state involves belonging more completely to another than slavery. Among Christian peoples, nothing makes a person belong more completely to Jesus and his holy Mother than voluntary slavery. Our Lord himself gave us the example of this when out of love for us he "took the form of a slave". Our Lady gave us the same example when she called herself the handmaid or slave of the Lord. The Apostle considered it an honour to be called "slave of Christ". Several times in Holy Scripture, Christians are referred to as "slaves of Christ".

Granting this, I say that we must belong to Jesus and serve him not just as hired servants but as willing slaves who, moved by generous love, commit themselves to his service after the manner of slaves for the honour of belonging to him. Before we were baptized we were the slaves of the devil, but baptism made us the slaves of Jesus. Christians can only be slaves of the devil

So, in the fullness of the words, and the application of the word, the work is very careful in how it words it and it does indeed means slave and it explains exactly why and how.

(Note: for reference, I am copying from a PDF and if there are any errors, please let me know. My available literature is a bit sparse at the moment.)

Voluntary slavery cannot be the "most" perfect form.  Because, the other two are not even in the category of "perfect forms".  They may simple be forms.  But are they perfect?  I would argue no.  Because, as a result of the fall, disorder was introduced in to nature.  And, as a result of satan's rebellion, disorder was introduced among the angels.  Not until the end of the world can it be said that natural slavery and enforced slavery even exist as a "perfect form", evidenced by the triumph of Christ at the end of the world, the restoration of the earth, and the separation of the sheep from the goats/the blessed from the damned.

Until that time, the devils time is short.  Until that time, there will be natural disasters.  Such a concept of perfect tri-slavery is a denial of Christ the King in the sense that kings rule nations.  Emperors rule empires.  Antichrist rules the world.  God judges nations in part as a whole.  During natural disasters, the innocent can be swept up.  God is the judge, and God is Good.  God is merciful.  God has mercy on the widow and the Fatherless.  It is no wonder the f**neyites practice this devotion.

If all three are not in the sphere of "perfect forms", "perfectly obedient to Almighty God" I will not believe that Voluntary Slavery is to be considered a "perfect form".  It is a novel idea with many flaws.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Insanis

This post is simply about the words used in a given work and a follow up on a question about the use of the words and whether the understanding was different.

The work itself addresses exactly what is meant by outlining the distinctions in the words and how they are used (and not used).

This is not a thread for attacking St Louis de Montfort or his works. Make your own topic.


Philip G.

Quote from: Insanis on May 18, 2021, 10:36:12 PM
This post is simply about the words used in a given work and a follow up on a question about the use of the words and whether the understanding was different.

The work itself addresses exactly what is meant by outlining the distinctions in the words and how they are used (and not used).

This is not a thread for attacking St Louis de Montfort or his works. Make your own topic.

"Voluntary slavery" is a doomsday device.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Insanis

#4
If any reference or expression of ordinary and common traditional Catholic Marian devotion invites relentless trolls on this forum, it has an identity crisis.

If I wanted to get devilish drivel in my "new replies" just every time I reference perfectly acceptable devotional works and references, I would just join reddit.

mikemac

Quote from: Insanis on May 18, 2021, 10:08:16 PM

(Note: for reference, I am copying from a PDF and if there are any errors, please let me know. My available literature is a bit sparse at the moment.)

It might be easier to copy from this html if you need to.

http://www.montfort.org.uk/Writings/TD.php
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source

Insanis

#6
Quote from: mikemac on May 18, 2021, 11:38:55 PM
It might be easier to copy from this html if you need to.

http://www.montfort.org.uk/Writings/TD.php

Thanks.

I cannot find my print copy. I think it might be lost. I had a little paperback. Maybe I gave it away.

Philip G.

Quote from: Insanis on May 18, 2021, 10:58:51 PM
If any reference or expression of ordinary and common traditional Catholic Marian devotion invites relentless trolls on this forum, it has an identity crisis.

If I wanted to get devilish drivel in my "new replies" just every time I reference perfectly acceptable devotional works and references, I would just join reddit.

You might try starting a new thread every time you want to relay a new message on the same topic, instead of having to deal with pesky posters responding.  Oh wait, that would be spamming the forum. 
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

andy

Quote from: Insanis on May 18, 2021, 10:08:16 PM

So, in the fullness of the words, and the application of the word, the work is very careful in how it words it and it does indeed means slave and it explains exactly why and how.


Thanks for bringing up full quotes from the source. I still think that understanding of word "slave" and all connotations around it have changed in past 350 years. It is a very loaded term these days.

Insanis

#9
Quote from: andy on May 19, 2021, 10:40:07 AM
Thanks for bringing up full quotes from the source. I still think that understanding of word "slave" and all connotations around it have changed in past 350 years. It is a very loaded term these days.

I recommend you read those passages in full, but the word was loaded before. He would be well aware what enforced slavery was. At the time he wrote it in 1712 there were slaves of all kinds and he would be aware of the enforced slavery in the New World, Africa, and by the Ottoman Empire, which would have been particular notorious for their practices at the time (and before and after).

So do not misunderstand his meaning. He would be well aware of the worst aspects of enforces slavery of Europeans, Africans, and all peoples going on at the time.

It is only a loaded term because it is tied to current views on race relations in a few countries and the fact that it is no longer an a legal institution.

It is a political issue in the USA (and probably others) because of this, but back then, they had the actual real threat and realities of it facing them.

If anything, it was a stronger word back then. 

EDIT: To add, at the time, there were slave raids in Europe and Asia by the Ottomans to take people for enforced slavery. They valued females the most. An entire religious order responded to this threat of enforced slavery of Christians (and others). It is clear that the idea of slavery and the practices at the time made slavery a far more proximate reality and threat than it is now, where it is largely just political and social reactions to history.

mikemac

Yeah Baltimore, Ireland was left virtually deserted for generations after an Ottoman slave raid in 1631.  There were a few orders besides the Mercedarians that took the Fourth Vow, to offer themselves to the Ottomans or Barbary Pirates in exchange for enslaved Christians.  Amazing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Blessed_Virgin_Mary_of_Mercy#The_Fourth_Vow
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source

Insanis

Quote from: Philip G. on May 19, 2021, 10:23:16 AM
You might try starting a new thread every time you want to relay a new message on the same topic, instead of having to deal with pesky posters responding.  Oh wait, that would be spamming the forum.

There is now a poll about the perspective of the forum for an informal look at what people think

If Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort focused threads are outnumbered by virus threads, I think it is far from spam.

And if I were to "spam the forum" with wholesome devotions, I think it might actually be good, if it drowns out quibbling and errors.

Tennessean

Slavery had never been so loaded a term as in Jesus' and Mary's own lifetimes. You want to be chained to an oar? Talk about the worst possible fate, and still a very common one. If you owed money to anyone let alone a Roman? You better be a good cook or horse breeder.

trentcath

I never saw the problem with it, especially given as the choice is a) be a slave to sin, or b) be a slave to Our Lord and Our Lady. What's the issue?  :huh: ;D Of course, the latter 'slavery' is actually really freedom even if the world sees it as slavery.

Insanis

Quote from: trentcath on May 20, 2021, 03:23:52 PM
I never saw the problem with it, especially given as the choice is a) be a slave to sin, or b) be a slave to Our Lord and Our Lady. What's the issue?   Of course, the latter 'slavery' is actually really freedom even if the world sees it as slavery.

Exactly.

It is all about the social feelings revolving around the word.

In real life, to various people, I pointed out we are all slaves to something, and the only question we have is in deciding that will be.

One of the people in the conversation was card carrying atheist and actually reflected on what their prime values actually were. I wasn't arguing with the atheist, just talking about values.

Quote from: Peter 2:19
...Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave.