Are trads mean, or are people mean to trads?

[kmo_9000]

This thread comes from my experiences with a particular individual I've met recently, but I've seen the same attitude in other people and in other places.

People find out about traditional Catholicism, maybe they go to a TLM for the first time, maybe they read an article or a blog, and then every time the topic comes up they always end up calling all trads mean or don't like how we believe the TLM is superior.

Talking reasonably about things like objective beauty and transcendentals almost never gets anywhere. Their entire basis for not liking trads is "this one time I had an encounter with this one guy who was more traditional, and he wasn't very nice."

That every group has people that are hard to get along with should be a given. But the implication is very clearly on the whole group in this case. Personally I think if someone comes into a TLM parish with a critical attitude where they are judging everything, everyone, and are generally looking for an argument, then they will find exactly what they are looking for.

Before I was trad I never experienced anything negative because I didn't go to the TLM looking for an argument or looking to judge people. It seems to me many people who act this way are guilty of exactly what they accuse trads of.

[Gerard]

When I first started to explore tradition, the thing I noticed was the lack of charity on the part of non-trads in debates.  The more points the non-trad made that were rebutted effectively the more aggressive and nasty they became. 

Neo-Catholics and anti-Catholics actually want to debate trads until they actually debate them, then they turn nasty.

Outright liberals don't want to debate trads at all and they start out of the gate nasty.   

Some trads are outright angry and nasty and others think the blowtorch is the only way to address an issue charitably, but that's far from the majority.

And since the Novus Ordo parish "communities" are basically cheap, imitations of Protestant models....

[kmo_9000]

I've experienced the same thing.

I don't have all the arguments memorized but I can lay out the basic gist of it.

But there is no quick response to explain things like transendental beauty, which is essential to understand the argument for why the TLM is superior to the stripped down NO. But I've found by the time I introduce the subject, the non-trad is already on some other topic and doesn't want to listen. You tell them to read or listen to something, they simply won't.

I've been called an extremist for saying that intention is required for validity of the sacraments (for quoting the Counsel of Trent).

It's also been said that "trads" are elitists, but I don't understand how seeing as everyone I know would want others to experience the beauty of the TLM. The conversation goes much better with people who aren't approaching the discussion with an axe to grind.

I've had more charitable conversations with protestants and muslims than conservative/neo-conservative Catholics. I've even commented on many occasions that people who seemingly have no faith can see the truth behind traditional Catholicism more than some Catholics. If you're going to be Catholic, you might as well be really Catholic.

[Heinrich]

I am moving to the Cincinnati, Ohio area the first week of July. There are two, possibly three new trad communities(none of the four sede communities there will be considered) in my future. I fear that there will be curious folk, like other places I have attended, where watchdogs of laity become the de facto vetting officers. Mrs. Heinrich and I will certainly be nice to them. I hope they are nice to us. I am expecting Colorado cracks and insults for being a public school teacher. I walk away when people do this and instruct Mrs. Heinrich to do the same. I understand the concern to an extent as I become unnerved when NO people bring their NO complacencies(immodesty, snacking, slumping, chit chat, etc.) to my traditional parish. I recently told a pair of women--in slacks--to take their conversation elsewhere after 10 minutes of yapping in the pews prior to a Requiem Mass. Was I mean? To them I was probably a beast, even though I smiled and kindly asked them to please go outside. I am an usher and have security intel  that most do not know so I do have a bit of a legitimacy for "bouncing" worldlings. Other than this episode, I asked a mom to have her child stop eating her cereal and some guy to bring his child to the cry room; it was getting out of hand. This has been in the span of ten years. Otherwise, I am not mean and have a reasonable threshold for these things and I always try to be welcoming, even though I don't like talking to people I don't really know because I usually say stupid stuff that scares them, e.g. Israel did 9/11, Confederate sympathies, "why aren't your boys wrestling or playing rugby," etc. That may be perceived as mean. 

[Miriam_M]

I don't see a lot of anger in person, from trads.  I see much more in print, including electronic media.  But I'll have to say honestly because I think I'm guilty of this, too:  There may be too much complacency -- not spiritually -- but in the sense of knowledge and familiarity with Tradition, among "established" (long-time trads) in any given trad setting -- Mass, public conferences, other events which draw traditionalists.

I think some people from the N.O., from no religion, or from different religions sometimes visit trad environments and feel it's difficult to break in, not because people are directly uncharitable but because people don't make it a point to extend themselves (introduce themselves, inquire about the newcomer, etc.).  Trads tend to see the same familiar faces week after week, and a routine develops of relating to just the same people, out of habit.  That might be a lost evangelization opportunity on the part of some.  (I do bring my own visitors to our High Mass and am quite purposeful about bringing them around to meet everyone, but I do not necessarily extend myself to people I don't yet know. It's just laziness and selfishness on my part. We can all get trapped in our own comfort.)

Some, however, in the N.O., confuse being definitive about the faith with being "harsh" toward others.  Those are two separate realms of behavior.

[Sempronius]

Depends on the culture aswell. In my local NO-parish it mostly consists of old eastern europeans that migrated during the second half of the 1900s. And I have lost count of have many times I just get a blank stare when I say hi.

[Gerard]

Do the Eastern Churches both Catholic and Orthodox have a similar problem when it comes to first time visitors and new attendees? 

You could even ask the same of Jews and Muslims for people who are curious. 

I think Protestants spend a lot of energy marketing for attendance.  That is also probably why they are the most doctrinally and liturgically flexible religious faction there is.

If the bar is set by Protestants with everything man-centered and Jesus being the mascot of humanity, pop tunes, modern buildings, health and wealth gospels and permissive morality, anything coherent is going to be perceived as "rigid." 

[Josephine87]

It is interesting to see just what welcoming means and who is included. For instance, there's a Catholic church in Baltimore, Maryland where the pastor deliberately "rejuvenated" the parish on a protestant megachurch model. He then wrote a now-notorious blogpost about how small children aren't welcome at Mass because the parish has its own separate children's programs just like at a non-Catholic church.

[Jacob]

There is someone I know at another secular webforum who lives in the Dallas Forth Worth area.  He is a former Methodist who currently non religious.  He is one of those types who likes to visit different groups.  I was telling him about Catholic stuff and tradition and he found the FSSP in Irving.  I told him he should go to Mass one Sunday and see what the TLM is all about and that they would welcome a newcomer sitting in back.  I sure hope I didn't tell him wrong if he ends up going.

[kmo_9000]

When it comes to online interactions, I don't necessarily think it's as bad as some might say.

Firstly, we do have a choice whether to read a forum and participate in a debate on any particular website.

Secondly, I think the same things apply as in real life. By that I mean I think people who argue are people looking for arguments. The same thing happens as the second post in this thread pointed out. Conservative Catholics are charitable to start, but get uncharitable as the argument progresses. Liberals, are just uncharitable out of the gate.

Even online, I've never seen trads outright attacking the people who attend the Novus Ordo. It's more so a discussion of legitimate problems and objective principles.

I guess you could go back and forth giving examples of which parish invites people to coffee after Mass and which doesn't. That may not be very helpful in affirming any accusation that trads are somehow more mean than other groups.

[clau clau]

Are Jews mean, or are people mean to Jews?

[tx2step]

"the Dallas Forth Worth area.   I sure hope I didn't tell him wrong if he ends up going.
[/quote]

Don't worry, he'll be fine at Mater Dei Parish they are pretty friendly. I think another factor in the equation is that it is geographical as much as anything. Southerners in general and Texans in particular are friendly and welcoming. Northerners not so much.

[The Harlequin King]

Both. It depends. It's a broad question.

I try to tell folks that talking with people at a TLM church is very different than talking to trads on the Internet. I think you're right that if people are coming to the church looking for things to be wrong, that's what they'll see. If they come with a blank slate, then that's another story.

Another issue is that going to the TLM is still a relatively countercultural activity in the Catholic world. There will be more introverts and introspective people than average, so they can make the whole group seem less friendly.

[sedmohradsko]

It is interesting to see just what welcoming means and who is included. For instance, there's a Catholic church in Baltimore, Maryland where the pastor deliberately "rejuvenated" the parish on a protestant megachurch model. He then wrote a now-notorious blogpost about how small children aren't welcome at Mass because the parish has its own separate children's programs just like at a non-Catholic church.

Nativity in Timonium?

[OCLittleFlower]

In any large enough group, there will be unpleasant people.

The trouble is, people want an excuse not to listen to Trad arguments, and "this one time, there was a guy who was mean to me" is as good an excuse as any.